SDA

[Karola]

Perfect!. And there you have it.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible - and He is not at War with His own Word - the Word of God.

Even in the New Testament "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

The LAW that has "Honor your father and mother" as the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

The where if you "break one you break them all" James 2

The law that Jeremiah and his readers would have known about when he wrote that the NEW Covenant includes "The LAW written on the heart" Jer 31:31-33 (a definition for the New Covenant that remains unchanged in the New Testament Hebrews 8:6-12)

The Law that includes the very same Sabbath as the one in Isaiah 66:23 where we are told that for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down"

The Law where even gentiles in the OT are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:5-8

Sabbath that is "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 according to Christ Himself.

If the law is written on your heart as you say through the Holy Spirit He will also lead you to keep the Sabbath holy.

You responded to the above. ''Perfect, there you have it''

But then, you accept people as christians who have not been led to keep a Saturday sabbath don't you

 

[Karola]

A Christian does not become lost each time they sin. That is my position and I have never stated it any other way.

"These things I write to you that you sin NOT - but if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1

I asked you, does a Christian remain in a justified state if they break the law. ?
Is a Christian condemned by the law if they break it?

Yes or no answers will suffice, no need to deflect from that is there?

 

[BobRyan]

If the law is written on your heart as you say through the Holy Spirit He will also lead you to keep the Sabbath holy.

And indeed He does -- I can testify to that.

The Holy Spirit is not at war against the Commandments of God, against the Bible, against sound doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

I asked you, does a Christian remain in a justified state if they break the law. ?
Is a Christian condemned by the law if they break it?

Yes or no answers will suffice, no need to deflect from that is there?

It is not deflection - what I am explaining is that while I don't believe a person is lost each time they sin - I also don't believe in the false doctrine of OSAS.

 

[Karola]

And indeed He does -- I can testify to that.

The Holy Spirit is not at war against the Commandments of God, against the Bible, against sound doctrine.

And you responded to the emboldened ''perfect, there you have it''

But I repeat, you then accept people as Christians who have not been led to follow a Saturday sabbath don't you, so the perfect is not so perfect is it?

 

[Karola]

It is not deflection - what I am explaining is that while I don't believe a person is lost each time they sin - I also don't believe in the false doctrine of OSAS.

I asked you concerning the word justification. You seem unwilling to give an opinion on that. Why deflect, are you unsure of the answer?

I will ask once more

Does a Christian remain in a justified state if they break the law?
Does the law condemn a person if they break it?

 

[BobRyan]

I asked you, does a Christian remain in a justified state if they break the law. ?
Is a Christian condemned by the law if they break it?

Yes or no answers will suffice, no need to deflect from that is there?

It is not deflection - what I am explaining is that while I don't believe a person is lost each time they sin - I also don't believe in the false doctrine of OSAS.

I asked you concerning the word justification. You seem unwilling to give an opinion on that. Why deflect, are you unsure of the answer?

So then you don't know what justification is?? Did you suppose that one can be saved but not justified - or justified but not saved???

I spelled out exactly what I think when it comes to salvation -- you seem to have invented a kind of justification where salvation does not matter or is not involved. In the Bible you cannot be justified - but lost or saved but-not-justified.

I will ask once more

Does a Christian remain in a justified state if they break the law?

Obviously they do - because there is no such thing as "Saved but not justified". Not one single person in heaven will get there "saved but not justified"

How do you even come up with that? Where is that idea coming from??

Does the law condemn a person if they break it?

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- that scripture is not changing.
The only way out of it is repentance and forgiveness.

But God does not cause you to lose your new-creation , new-heart, saved state each time you sin. (As already stated). The saints look at sin as revolting to their new-birth nature and are driven to repentance. We would not need forgiveness or repentance or to claim the blood of Christ as payment for our sins - if sin "was just so much trivia" to the saints.

There is no text declaring sin to be the friend of the saint or the home of the saint or the way of the saints. see Romans 8:4-11

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But I repeat, you then accept people as Christians who have not been led to follow a Saturday sabbath

A "saturday Sabbath"??? Do you mean "the Bible Sabbath" or "The Word of God saying 'The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD' Ex 20:10??

As I stated - I already accept those as "Christians" who pray to the dead, who bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Why would I treat the Sabbath commandment any different -- since James 2 says not to do any such thing as that?

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<BR>...Why would I treat the Sabbath commandment any different -- since James 2 says not to do any such thing as that?
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.<end>

end

The Sabbath was given specifically to the children of Israel as an everlasting, perpetual covenant.

Lev 24:8 Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.]
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.​

And that is how the Jews understood it.

Jewish Encyclopedia- Gentile
Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b).
"not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" (לא ישבתו
="have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)—
Simon ben Jose likens Israel to a stone, and the Gentiles to a potsherd (Isa. xxx. 14),
"The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.).
In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword שׁב (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G​

 

[mmksparbud]

And how did you come to the conclusion you must do that? By reading what was written in ink, or was that knowledge already written in your heart?

Truth is truth, no matter how God chooses to deliver it!

 

[mmksparbud]

What sin does the Holy Spirit convict us of?

All---remember it took over a year to convict David of his. We like to hold on to our sins.

 

[mmksparbud]

It isn't a law written in ink for the believer, but one written by the Spirit of God on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3)

It is a law written by God--period--no matter how He chooses to deliver it.

 

[mmksparbud]

That contradicts the bible concerning where the law is for the believer. God gave/spoke 613 laws under the old covenant, Christians are not expected to follow all of them under the new covenant. Why not look at it from Paul's point of view
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

That's much simpler isn't it[/QUOTE
The old covenant was kept outside the Ark, the 10 were the only ones kept inside the Ark---which represents the throne of God. Very simple.

 

[mmksparbud]

Please point out the verse in scripture where God clearly and specifically commanded Adam and Eve to observe a sabbath day. I cam find where he commanded them not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and evil...that's a clear commandment. Anyone can find it. No such commandment for a sabbath day.

Please point out where God specifically pointed out the a day He set aside at creation, and hallowed it and sanctified it and then said that Adam and Eve didn't have to observe it. It was made for man, and Adam and Eve were man--It was a day for them to be with God and set aside their labors in the Garden, just to commune with Him. It is a day for our benefit from creation that will still be kept in the New Earth for God made us to need that break from the everyday to set aside for Him and reset our whole body and brain---from creation to the new earth, it will be kept.

 

[bekkilyn]

Please point out where God specifically pointed out the a day He set aside at creation, and hallowed it and sanctified it and then said that Adam and Eve didn't have to observe it. It was made for man, and Adam and Eve were man--It was a day for them to be with God and set aside their labors in the Garden, just to commune with Him. It is a day for our benefit from creation that will still be kept in the New Earth for God made us to need that break from the everyday to set aside for Him and reset our whole body and brain---from creation to the new earth, it will be kept.

You know what this reminds me of? There were times in English classes where the teacher would present a short scenario and then we were to express our creativity by making up a story to explain that scenario. It was fun to hear what all the other students came up with.

You're reading in a LOT here that simply isn't there. However, if you can show me exactly where in Genesis that God specifically commands Adam and Eve to observe a ritual weekly sabbath in the garden (or even anywhere else for that matter), then I'd be open to changing my mind and admitting, "Well gosh, there it is after all!" I have a feeling though that they communed with God every day (although I don't think days existed there since the seventh day never had a morning), much like many of us do, but without being in a sinful condition of course, rather than insist that he wait every seven days for them to pay him any mind.

I have a feeling I'll be waiting for the same amount of time it has taken others to point out the exact verse in the new testament where God commands Gentiles to observe a sabbath day...any sabbath day at all would do. It wouldn't even need to be a seventh day sabbath if say, a Tuesday sabbath would make it easier.

 

[mmksparbud]

God didn't get riled up about a piece of fruit. If he hadn't put anything like that in the garden, then Adam and Eve would have no occasion to exercise their free will and make a choice whether or not to serve God and remain in the garden without sin. It could have been anything, but God chose a tree with fruit.

Exactly--and He isn't getting riled up about a day either---it is still about whether or not we will obey. And He chose one day. Just as He chose one fruit.

There is no commandment there for humans to observe a sabbath day. You may also notice that there is no evening and morning to complete that day. His work was finished on the sixth day and his seventh day is still ongoing, just like the rest we have in Jesus is still ongoing.

What do anyone do with something that God has declared Holy and sanctified? He didn't have to say morning and evening anymore---He had set the weekly cycle at the end of day 6. The day is to represent His creation and to commune with Him. Yes, He is our rest everyday---but we must labor every day and there is one day set aside for just Him. It will be the same on the New earth. We must work -- we can not set aside all labor every single day---that is laziness and God made us to work 6 days a week and set labor aside 1 day week as He did. And He chose what day. And it will be on going throughout eternity.

He never commanded anyone in the garden to ritually observe a sabbath. Their life in the garden was an ongoing sabbath. The ritual weekly sabbath was established as a sign of the covenant to the Israelites at Sinai (and it specifically says there in scripture that the covenant was NOT with their ancestors) and was to temporarily last for *their* generations (not Gentiles) until old heaven and earth (Jerusalem) passed away. Which it did in AD 70 when Jerusalem and their Temple was destroyed. Now we await the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem.

It may sound that the garden of Eden was one long vacation-but He made us to work. But they did have a work to do -- though not as laborious as we have it now--it was still work:
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
It may not have involved pulling weeds and plowing and watering---but they were doing something--as we will on the new earth.
The weekly Sabbath was set at creation---there was no Jew yet. The old heaven and earth are still here. So is Jerusalem---just the temple is not there. No need for sacrifices--Jesus is the Sacrifice.

 

[mmksparbud]

Because Jesus recognized that the Pharisees were abusing it. The sabbath was intended to be a benefit to the Israelites and their ancestors, not a burden.

No--It was made for man---He didn't say it was made for the Jew. Man has a tendency to be work alcoholics--the body needs a change from the everyday routine. Even science has attested to that now. God simply set which day. And yes, the Rabbis had made it a burden-it was to be a delight---a joy. Not a day for more burdens of the mind or spirit. Jesus did not break it, not as written by God, He broke their rules, never God's. Jesus gave it back the joy and peace it is to be, He did not remove it.

The fourth commandment TO the Israelites at Sinai and their descendents. Not to Gentiles. Not to anyone else.

Again, there were no Jews at cr4estion. And the Israelites carried with them a great multitude of Gentiles.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Even the animals got a break.

Because maybe there were Gentiles, lots and lots of them once Paul came around, becoming converted from paganism to The Way that would have had no clue whatsoever about a sabbath, having never had to observe a sabbath or any other Jewish rituals or laws. And yet it's not emphasized ANYWHERE in the new testament because it has never applied to Gentiles and Gentiles are not bound by old covenant law and never have been.

Again--the Sabbath was a routine for the disciples---nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
The Sabbath applied to everyone. The Sabbath was never a part of the old covenant--that is why the 10 were kept inside the Ark, and the law of Moses was set outside the Ark.

 

[bekkilyn]

Exactly--and He isn't getting riled up about a day either---it is still about whether or not we will obey. And He chose one day. Just as He chose one fruit.

What do anyone do with something that God has declared Holy and sanctified? He didn't have to say morning and evening anymore---He had set the weekly cycle at the end of day 6. The day is to represent His creation and to commune with Him. Yes, He is our rest everyday---but we must labor every day and there is one day set aside for just Him. It will be the same on the New earth. We must work -- we can not set aside all labor every single day---that is laziness and God made us to work 6 days a week and set labor aside 1 day week as He did. And He chose what day. And it will be on going throughout eternity.

It may sound that the garden of Eden was one long vacation-but He made us to work. But they did have a work to do -- though not as laborious as we have it now--it was still work:
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
It may not have involved pulling weeds and plowing and watering---but they were doing something--as we will on the new earth.
The weekly Sabbath was set at creation---there was no Jew yet. The old heaven and earth are still here. So is Jerusalem---just the temple is not there. No need for sacrifices--Jesus is the Sacrifice.

So now you're claiming not only must people observe a seventh day sabbath where they must sit around doing nothing for 24 hours, but they must then diligently work non-stop for six twenty-four hour days or else they are being lazy and still breaking the commandment? (If the sabbath day must be for a full 24 hours, then the workdays would be for 6 times 24 hours, right?)

I wonder if God likes being a latchkey parent with his kids so busy working that they have time for him only one day out of the week. "Sorry God, gotta get this TCP report done before that serpent comes in for his appointment to sit in that tree you want us to avoid."

Or maybe you're just again reading more things into the scenario that isn't actually there.

It's also funny how we get to pick and choose what we're going to literally read from scripture. When it's convenient to be literal to support a seventh day sabbath, we're literal, but then somehow we're not supposed to take the fact that there was literally no evening or morning on that seventh day seriously. Oh we can just ignore that as being insignificant....it doesn't matter.

 

[mmksparbud]

To interpret it as the specific day you decide to worship God though is extremely far-fetched and requires a lot of very imaginative ways of combining cherry-picked scripture verses together to come to such a conclusion.

Not really--0it just takes knowing that God set aside one day as His sign that He is the Creator God that made this world and everything in it and around it. And what the beast chooses as an act of showing it's power and authority --or what the beast is going on about how it is to be worshiped.

Yes, they did, and it is all over the new testament what day of the week followers of The Way were meeting on, and the day of Christ's resurrection, and the day of Pentacost, etc.

Then you should have no trouble in pointing those out.

 

[bekkilyn]

No--It was made for man---He didn't say it was made for the Jew. Man has a tendency to be work alcoholics--the body needs a change from the everyday routine. Even science has attested to that now. God simply set which day. And yes, the Rabbis had made it a burden-it was to be a delight---a joy. Not a day for more burdens of the mind or spirit. Jesus did not break it, not as written by God, He broke their rules, never God's. Jesus gave it back the joy and peace it is to be, He did not remove it.

Again, there were no Jews at cr4estion. And the Israelites carried with them a great multitude of Gentiles.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Even the animals got a break.

Again--the Sabbath was a routine for the disciples---nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
The Sabbath applied to everyone. The Sabbath was never a part of the old covenant--that is why the 10 were kept inside the Ark, and the law of Moses was set outside the Ark.

The Jews didn't have any gates at the time Paul was converting Gentiles to Christianity. It all belonged to Rome and the Gentiles therefore didn't reside in a Jewish nation (or even an Israelite one under an Israelite king) or practice Jewish customs or laws. (And according to a decision by the apostles during what we call the Jerusalem Council, they didn't have to.) They lived in their own areas within Greco-Roman culture surrounded by others of their own culture. They did not follow Jewish feast days or sabbaths. They were former pagans who worshiped in places like the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

The ritual sabbath along with the rest of the Mosaic law was given specifically to the Israelites at Sinai, and the reason that the Jews observed it is because they were descendants of those Israelites.

Just because you like having a sabbath or enjoy observing one or find it to be healthy doesn't automatically mean that it was commanded to anyone other than the Israelites at Sinai and their descendants. Moses specifically stated that the Sinai covenant was NOT made with the ancestors of the Israelites who were with him there on the mountain.