SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the or objections to EGW


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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
So then one might then ask which statement published by her claiming it is inspired counsel for the church - are you quoting for your claim that she said God was in error about something or a vision or dream was in error?
Not even sure what your questions is asking Bob.
Well that is where we have a problem.
I was noting that Ellen White agrees with you, a prophet, speaking by inspiration, has to be correct
Indeed.

But you also claim to find errors in her statements revealing her to be a false prophet - and to do that you would need to be quoting something she published as a message from God given to her - for the church.

I think I mentioned that.

You say she published two statements to the church - as coming from God but in conflict with each other. And I assume you mean to say that the conflict is more than just your own extreme inference, or inuendo - but an actual conflict in something she claims God told her.

In any case - I continue to claim you have free will and can ignore what you wish and post what you wish no matter if I find it lacking.
 
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tall73

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If I recall correctly, the link you give in this post uses the phrase "currently ravaging congregations".


Here are the statements referenced so far in chronological order:

2006, Merlin Bert, Adventist historian,taught church history at the seminary, Director of the Center for Adventist Research and the Ellen G. White Estate Branch Office, Andrews University.

"The last decade has seen an increased anti-Trinitarian agitation​
within the Seventh-day Adventist Church."​

2017 The Trinity Project, Produced by: Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, In association with: Seminary Online Learning Center

"In the last two decades, there has been a resurgence of Arianism and anti-Trinitarianism, not only in the Seventh-day Adventist Church but also in the wider Christian and Evangelical world."​

2022, Denis Kaiser, Assistant Professor of Church History at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary and Research and Publication Editor at the Center for Adventist Research, in a Book review for "The Heavenly Trio"

"Since the mid-2010s the Seventh-day Adventist Church has experienced a dramatic increase in antitrinitarian sentiments. The partial or complete rejection of the church’s Fundamental Beliefs numbers 2–5 (Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is making inroads into many local congregations."​


2022 (in December), Eric Brown, Upper Columbia Conference ministerial director

Throughout the years, we've seen a number of various anti-trinitarian ideas move through the church. Another wave seems to be cresting again in the Upper Columbia Conference with materials published by Jean Handwerk and videos by Michael McCaffrey.​
 
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BobRyan

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Here are the statements referenced so far in chronological order:

2006, Merlin Bert, Adventist historian,taught church history at the seminary, Director of the Center for Adventist Research and the Ellen G. White Estate Branch Office, Andrews University.

"The last decade has seen an increased anti-Trinitarian agitation​
Which is not a claim that SDA pastors are being taught to ignore the trinity or to teach against it. And it is not a claim that we are not disfellowshipping people that teach against our doctrines - -- including the doctrine of the trinity.

And if you think you can go to the average SDA congregation and find them split on the subject of the Trinity - I challenge you to actually try that. It is not as easy as you seem to suppose. I have been to a great many congregations where this it not debated against at all.

It is hard to find such a congregation and when you do find one - it always ends in either the leaders being disfellowshipped or else coming to a better understanding of the Bible and the triune Godhead.
 
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tall73

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But you also claim to find errors in her statements revealing her to be a false prophet - and to do that you would need to be quoting something she published as a message from God given to her - for the church.


Right that has been done a number of times. Just from the front page here:

She disagreed with the Scriptures:


She endorsed a false, failed, non-biblical message that went against the words of Christ:


She contradicted the Scriptures indicating that satan is the one who removes our sins:



You say she published two statements to the church - as coming from God but in conflict with each other. And I assume you mean to say that the conflict is more than just your own extreme inference, or inuendo - but an actual conflict in something she claims God told her.

Yes, her early statements are non-trinitarian, and conflict with her later statements.

For instance, you didn't address this one last time it was posted:

From Spiritual Gifts Volume 1, The Fall of satan

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. But when God said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image," Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. He desired to receive the highest honors in heaven next to God. {EW 145.1}​

Ellen White indicates Jesus has the highest honors next to God, and satan is jealous of that.

Until this time all heaven had been in order, harmony, and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against His order and will. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus, was insinuating against the government of God. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to His Son.​

They advocated for the wisdom of god in giving authority to His Son.

There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They wished to look into His unsearchable wisdom, and ascertain His purpose in exalting Jesus and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command.​

They wanted to look into the purpose of God in exalting Jesus and ENDOWING Him with such unlimited power and command.

Now Bob, did God the Father have to exalt Jesus and endow Him with power prior to the fall of satan?
 
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tall73

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Which is not a claim that SDA pastors are being taught to ignore the trinity or to teach against it.

I did not allege they were.

And it is not a claim that we are not disfellowshipping people that teach against our doctrines - -- including the doctrine of the trinity.

Nor did I say it was.

And if you think you can go to the average SDA congregation and find them split on the subject of the Trinity - I challenge you to actually try that. It is not as easy as you seem to suppose. I have been to a great many congregations where this it not debated against at all.

The sources referenced seem to think it is significant Bob. Are you claiming, for instance, that the ministerial director quoted in the last source has no basis for his claim about his own territory?

Apparently there are some metrics for them to indicate that it is growing. But they haven't published them. Why don't you pull some strings on that, since you have said before you have been to some of the research centers.


It is hard to find such a congregation and when you do find one - it always ends in either the leaders being disfellowshipped or else coming to a better understanding of the Bible and the triune Godhead.

Just the sort of contention that you might want to have the bretheren document with statistics. They must have some in order to keep referencing the growing problem. And I am sure they would have records of apostasy removals for such incidents. They already publish overall figures in annual statistical reports for apostasy.
 
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BobRyan

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She contradicted the Scriptures indicating that satan is the one who removes our sins:
clearly false as has been shown multiple times in response to that false accusation.

She has always taught (as do SDAs to this very day) that Christ alone made the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world and his blood alone avails for the forgiveness of sins - as you and I both know.

I can repeat all those quotes again of her claims on that point -- as you and I both know.

Your false accusations only work with those who have only partial access to the material you rely on -- and as we both know -- I have full access and the time to look into the details. Not sure why you keep trying that one out on me... did you really want to see all the quotes that debunk that false accusation "again"???
 
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tall73

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Let's take a more straight-forward example of Ellen White contradicting herself regarding the location and activities of satan in 1844. Is satan omnipresent?

1. Satan in 1844 is in the Holy Place, responding to prayers by breathing out an unholy influence:

Early Writings:​
Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. [56]​
I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children​
And​
And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.​


2. satan in 1844 is in the Most Holy Place, accusing the professed followers of God in the investigative judgment

Great Controversy:​
While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.​
3. Revelation 12 indicates satan was cast out of heaven and there was no place found for him or his angels in heaven any longer.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”​
Note, that while satan accused Job, etc. the statement from Revelation 12 in context is after the birth of the male child, and his being caught up to heaven.
 
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tall73

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clearly false as has been shown multiple times in response to that false accusation.

She has always taught (as do SDAs to this very day) that Christ alone made the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world and his blood alone avails for the forgiveness of sins - as you and I both know.

I can repeat all those quotes again of her claims on that point -- as you and I both know.

Your false accusations only work with those who have only partial access to the material you rely on -- and as we both know -- I have full access and the time to look into the details. Not sure why you keep trying that one out on me... did you really want to see all the quotes that debunk that false accusation "again"???

Anyone can read the thread Bob. She claimed satan is the scapegoat. The scapegoat removed the sins of the people. Atonement was made over the scapegoat per Leviticus 16.

And I didn't see anything that debunked the details the first time. I just saw you ignoring statement after statement from Ellen White and your church website.

In fact, you have a number of points addressed to you in that thread you have not even attempted to answer.

But here we can stick to the other statements you are avoiding, recently posted, regarding Ellen White's contradictions, which have been posted in this thread multiple times.
 
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tall73

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Your false accusations only work with those who have only partial access to the material you rely on -- and as we both know -- I have full access and the time to look into the details.

Still waiting on that quote from James White I requested multiple times as well. Why do you keep saying you have the material, but don't post it?
 
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Leaf473

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It is not a big deal if Ellen White had some mistaken idea at all.

What is a big deal is if she said God told her something in a dream or vision and that turns out to be a false statement because then she could not be trusted as a prophet.

So then it is true that "some folks' will go digging through piles of personal letters or reports of something she said at breakfast to see if it was ever a mistake - which just shows how little they know about how the gift of prophecy works.

Still it is correct to say that anything she claims to have said as a message of divine revelation given to her by God - has to have the integrity of "Truth" to it that one expects when God tells someone something.

So yeah - it would not be a big deal if she had some incorrect view of a given topic... but If she claims God Himself had that incorrect view - then that is a problem for her.
Well, when I was asking if it's okay for prophets to make mistakes, I meant mistakes in their prophecies... The prophecies they attribute to God.
 
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Leaf473

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Well that is where we have a problem.
Well, for what it's worth, Bob, sometimes I'm not sure what your question is, either :)

I'm not saying that is a put-down. I'm just saying that you may wish to look for ways to be more clear in your posts.

Indeed.

But you also claim to find errors in her statements revealing her to be a false prophet - and to do that you would need to be quoting something she published as a message from God given to her - for the church.

I think I mentioned that.

You say she published two statements to the church - as coming from God but in conflict with each other. And I assume you mean to say that the conflict is more than just your own extreme inference, or inuendo - but an actual conflict in something she claims God told her.

In any case - I continue to claim you have free will and can ignore what you wish and post what you wish no matter if I find it lacking.
 
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Leaf473

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Here are the statements referenced so far in chronological order:

2006, Merlin Bert, Adventist historian,taught church history at the seminary, Director of the Center for Adventist Research and the Ellen G. White Estate Branch Office, Andrews University.

"The last decade has seen an increased anti-Trinitarian agitation​
within the Seventh-day Adventist Church."​

2017 The Trinity Project, Produced by: Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, In association with: Seminary Online Learning Center

"In the last two decades, there has been a resurgence of Arianism and anti-Trinitarianism, not only in the Seventh-day Adventist Church but also in the wider Christian and Evangelical world."​

2022, Denis Kaiser, Assistant Professor of Church History at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary and Research and Publication Editor at the Center for Adventist Research, in a Book review for "The Heavenly Trio"

"Since the mid-2010s the Seventh-day Adventist Church has experienced a dramatic increase in antitrinitarian sentiments. The partial or complete rejection of the church’s Fundamental Beliefs numbers 2–5 (Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is making inroads into many local congregations."​


2022 (in December), Eric Brown, Upper Columbia Conference ministerial director

Throughout the years, we've seen a number of various anti-trinitarian ideas move through the church. Another wave seems to be cresting again in the Upper Columbia Conference with materials published by Jean Handwerk and videos by Michael McCaffrey.​
Thanks for laying that all out :thumbsup:

The quote I was thinking of comes from the Denis Kaiser reference. In the last paragraph, he writes:
"...the antitrinitarian conflicts that are currently
ravaging congregations..."
 
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Leaf473

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Which is not a claim that SDA pastors are being taught to ignore the trinity or to teach against it. And it is not a claim that we are not disfellowshipping people that teach against our doctrines - -- including the doctrine of the trinity.

And if you think you can go to the average SDA congregation and find them split on the subject of the Trinity - I challenge you to actually try that. It is not as easy as you seem to suppose. I have been to a great many congregations where this it not debated against at all.

It is hard to find such a congregation and when you do find one - it always ends in either the leaders being disfellowshipped or else coming to a better understanding of the Bible and the triune Godhead.
I think what the references do show is that people who are in positions where they are likely to have good knowledge of the situation are not describing the anti-Trinitarian movement as tiny or of little consequence.
 
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Leaf473

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Anyone can read the thread Bob. She claimed satan is the scapegoat.
I remember now a lengthy exchange with @LoveGodsWord (he's no longer active here) about that. I believe you were involved, as well.

I was very surprised to learn that at least some SDA's believe that what Jesus' blood did was transfer our sin to the temple in heaven, where it will later be transferred to Satan.

The scapegoat removed the sins of the people. Atonement was made over the scapegoat per Leviticus 16.

And I didn't see anything that debunked the details the first time. I just saw you ignoring statement after statement from Ellen White and your church website.

In fact, you have a number of points addressed to you in that thread you have not even attempted to answer.

But here we can stick to the other statements you are avoiding, recently posted, regarding Ellen White's contradictions, which have been posted in this thread multiple times.
 
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BobRyan

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I think what the references do show is that people who are in positions where they are likely to have good knowledge of the situation are not describing the anti-Trinitarian movement as tiny or of little consequence.
Nobody likes a group no matter how tiny that is working against the doctrines of the church.

But every 5 years we vote on our doctrinal statements and so far there is not even one meeting of that sort where a "significant" group argues against the trinity - or even "any group" does it. So my argument is not that such tiny groups do not exist - just that they are not at the level of a denominational debate or even an opposing view during our doctrinal meeting debates every 5 years nor is it all that easy to find even one congregation sold out to that sort of thing.

So my argument is not that they do not "exist".
 
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I remember now a lengthy exchange with @LoveGodsWord (he's no longer active here) about that. I believe you were involved, as well.

Yes, and you may want to check out the new thread as it addresses a few things in that discussion that were not addressed prior.
 
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Sophia7

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I was very surprised to learn that at least some SDA's believe that what Jesus' blood did was transfer our sin to the temple in heaven, where it will later be transferred to Satan.
The idea that Jesus' blood transferred sins to the heavenly sanctuary came directly from Ellen White (and her earlier statement was slightly revised later in The Great Controversy):
As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin-offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ. {4SP 266.1}
As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. {GC 421.3}
 
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Nobody likes a group no matter how tiny that is working against the doctrines of the church.

But every 5 years we vote on our doctrinal statements and so far there is not even one meeting of that sort where a "significant" group argues against the trinity - or even "any group" does it. So my argument is not that such tiny groups do not exist - just that they are not at the level of a denominational debate or even an opposing view during our doctrinal meeting debates every 5 years nor is it all that easy to find even one congregation sold out to that sort of thing.
So my argument is not that they do not "exist".
I'm not surprised that it hasn't reached the denominational level, and it probably won't - my guess. At the same time, people who appear to be in a position to know details are describing the movement as something noteworthy.
 
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I'm not surprised that it hasn't reached the denominational level, and it probably won't - my guess. At the same time, people who appear to be in a position to know details are describing the movement as something noteworthy.

I think that several factors are involved:

a. Concern for members who are led to these beliefs

b. Concern for churches

d. Concern for finances.

The latter requires a bit of explanation. In the Adventist system all tithe goes essentially to minister salaries. Any expenses on church programs, buildings, other ministries, etc. are funded by offerings other than tithes. The reason this was done was so that the ministry might be funded, and they saw it as parallel to the OT system. This allows funding missionary work more fully because tithe essentially goes up the chain and then is distributed such that ministers are mostly paid the same, with some slight difference in experience, degrees, etc.

This has some practical implications. It means that pastors are not becoming very wealthy through ministry, or starving. It also means, in many places, that a pastor may have to serve multiple churches. Initially Adventist ministers were primarily Evangelists who would work in different fields as the Lord indicated, through leadership, etc. In some parts of the world field this is still largely the case, with pastors doing evangelism and coordinating labors of lay people throughout several churches.

This system allows for rapid growth, which is good. It also makes a more hierarchical system, with the benefits and drawbacks.

Adventist leaders and Ellen White have strongly advocated that tithe and offerings should be sent to the Conferences in order to fund the work of the ministry. They quote from Malachi to indicate failure to do this is robbing God.

However, some members throughout the time following church organization, have felt they should send their tithe elsewhere to support independent ministries, or to give to people in need, etc. This is especially true if they feel the conference, or even the world SDA church is not acting appropriately, or is compromising doctrine, etc.

If someone is paying tithe then suddenly stops this is often a sign of either changing convictions, or some other issue.

Some independent Adventist ministries may openly encourage people to send their tithe to them. Others may not encourage it, but either don't realize, or might not send it back if they receive it so marked.

There are cooperative independent ministries, that encourage baptism into the SDA church, do not accept tithe, etc. And there are non-coorperative ones who may be quite critical, may accept tithe, etc.

Those who hold to anti-Trinitarian views in the Adventist church tend to be more in tune with the early pioneers, and more prone to favoring non-supportive ministries that advocate the General Conference, etc. have apostasized and the true "remnant of the remnant" should not support them.

So my guess is they can tell which churches are getting into independent ministries based on sudden drops in funds. Some of these upon investigation may deal with issues related to the Godhead.

For a straight-forward North American Division statement on where tithe should go, and how it should not be used for other purposes for independent ministries, see here:


You will find it thoroughly discusses one OT law that Adventists still find applicable.

For a more impassioned appeal expressing the views of the clergy who have to deal with independent ministries, you can read this article from Ministry Magazine, an official magazine of the denomination that goes to ministers:


This is older, around 1992, but it gives some of the financial impacts at the time of independent ministry tithe diversion, and the resulting cutting of pastoral staff, enlarging of pastoral districts, etc.
 
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I think that several factors are involved:

a. Concern for members who are led to these beliefs

b. Concern for churches

d. Concern for finances.

The latter requires a bit of explanation. In the Adventist system all tithe goes essentially to minister salaries. Any expenses on church programs, buildings, other ministries, etc. are funded by offerings other than tithes. The reason this was done was so that the ministry might be funded, and they saw it as parallel to the OT system. This allows funding missionary work more fully because tithe essentially goes up the chain and then is distributed such that ministers are mostly paid the same, with some slight difference in experience, degrees, etc.

This has some practical implications. It means that pastors are not becoming very wealthy through ministry, or starving. It also means, in many places, that a pastor may have to serve multiple churches. Initially Adventist ministers were primarily Evangelists who would work in different fields as the Lord indicated, through leadership, etc. In some parts of the world field this is still largely the case, with pastors doing evangelism and coordinating labors of lay people throughout several churches.

This system allows for rapid growth, which is good. It also makes a more hierarchical system, with the benefits and drawbacks.

Adventist leaders and Ellen White have strongly advocated that tithe and offerings should be sent to the Conferences in order to fund the work of the ministry. They quote from Malachi to indicate failure to do this is robbing God.

However, some members throughout the time following church organization, have felt they should send their tithe elsewhere to support independent ministries, or to give to people in need, etc. This is especially true if they feel the conference, or even the world SDA church is not acting appropriately, or is compromising doctrine, etc.

If someone is paying tithe then suddenly stops this is often a sign of either changing convictions, or some other issue.

Some independent Adventist ministries may openly encourage people to send their tithe to them. Others may not encourage it, but either don't realize, or might not send it back if they receive it so marked.

There are cooperative independent ministries, that encourage baptism into the SDA church, do not accept tithe, etc. And there are non-coorperative ones who may be quite critical, may accept tithe, etc.

Those who hold to anti-Trinitarian views in the Adventist church tend to be more in tune with the early pioneers, and more prone to favoring non-supportive ministries that advocate the General Conference, etc. have apostasized and the true "remnant of the remnant" should not support them.

So my guess is they can tell which churches are getting into independent ministries based on sudden drops in funds. Some of these upon investigation may deal with issues related to the Godhead.

For a straight-forward North American Division statement on where tithe should go, and how it should not be used for other purposes for independent ministries, see here:


You will find it thoroughly discusses one OT law that Adventists still find applicable.

For a more impassioned appeal expressing the views of the clergy who have to deal with independent ministries, you can read this article from Ministry Magazine, an official magazine of the denomination that goes to ministers:


This is older, around 1992, but it gives some of the financial impacts at the time of independent ministry tithe diversion, and the resulting cutting of pastoral staff, enlarging of pastoral districts, etc.
Thank you for all that information :thumbsup:
 
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