SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the or objections to EGW


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tall73

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Thank you for all that information :thumbsup:

Sure! By the way, we received pamphlets to pass out that were very similar to the first link describing the passages on tithe, and the location of the "storehouse" for tithe, to give to our members.

So this was not just discussion at the administrative level.
 
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BobRyan

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Anyone can read the thread Bob. She claimed satan is the scapegoat.
We all claim that Satan is the scapegoat in Lev 16 and so also are the lost (in a secondary sense).

We also claim that the scapegoat is never called "the sin offering" and it is in fact - not a sin offering at all. It makes no substitutionary atoning payment for anything at all in Lev 16.
And I didn't see anything that debunked the details the first time.
If you pay attention to the details you will know why -- you need a strong argument that pays attention to details for it to work. Your method of ignoring the details does not work.
 
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tall73

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We all claim that Satan is the scapegoat in Lev 16 and so also are the lost (in a secondary sense).

We also claim that the scapegoat is never called "the sin offering" and it is in fact - not a sin offering at all. It makes no substitutionary atoning payment for anything at all in Lev 16.

If you pay attention to the details you will know why -- you need a strong argument that pays attention to details for it to work. Your method of ignoring the details does not work.


Folks reading can decide who addressed details Bob.
 
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tall73

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And if you think you can go to the average SDA congregation and find them split on the subject of the Trinity - I challenge you to actually try that. It is not as easy as you seem to suppose. I have been to a great many congregations where this it not debated against at all.

It is hard to find such a congregation and when you do find one - it always ends in either the leaders being disfellowshipped or else coming to a better understanding of the Bible and the triune Godhead.

Bob, don't worry, the denomination is doing the hard work for us!

The 2023 Global Church Member Survey obtained views of Seventh-day Adventists, primarily in the North American Division.


In 2022, 1,819 NAD members responded, primarily from the U.S. (80 percent) and Canada (nine percent). Interestingly, two-thirds had been baptized for more than 30 years, and more than a third considered themselves active participants or leaders in the church. Most (40 percent) were 65 and older, with a significant minority (27 percent) between 36-54, and 62 percent were female.​

One of the findings:
Forty-one percent believe the Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a person.

Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian view were disfellowshipped following their completion of the survey?


@Leaf473
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tall73

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Bob, don't worry, the denomination is doing the hard work for us!

The 2023 Global Church Member Survey obtained views of Seventh-day Adventists, primarily in the North American Division.


In 2022, 1,819 NAD members responded, primarily from the U.S. (80 percent) and Canada (nine percent). Interestingly, two-thirds had been baptized for more than 30 years, and more than a third considered themselves active participants or leaders in the church. Most (40 percent) were 65 and older, with a significant minority (27 percent) between 36-54, and 62 percent were female.​

One of the findings:
Forty-one percent believe the Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a person.

Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian view were disfellowshipped following their completion of the survey?


@Leaf473
@The Liturgist


But, the Adventists who participated in the survey from Ukraine were much more Trinitarian.


Most (85%) GCMS 2022–23 respondents wholeheartedly believe in the Triune God (i.e., one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three eternal, equal Persons). Another 11% accept this teaching because the Church teaches it. Most (87%) respondents disagree with the statement “the Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a Person”; however, 5%​
remain unsure, and 8% agree.​

The Adventist folks of Ukraine do have strong feelings other topics as well:


Most interestingly, four in five (81%) respondents agree that they will not get to Heaven unless they obey God’s law perfectly. Eleven percent of respondents are unsure, and only 8% of respondents disagree​

 
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tall73

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The South Pacific Division on the other hand show strong views against the personhood of the Spirit:


The survey also identified uncertainties around the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Despite fundamental belief number five affirming the Holy Spirit as a Person equal to the Father and Son, 65 per cent of SPD respondents either strongly agreed or agreed with the statement, “The Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a person”.​
And unrelated, but still interesting:

Legalism also surfaced as a challenge, with three in four participants agreeing with the statement, “I will not get to heaven unless I obey God’s law perfectly”.​


 
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tall73

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@The Liturgist
@Leaf473

From the Meta-analysis:


However, several clusters of Divisions had a substantial proportion of respondents report that they did not believe that the Holy Spirit was a Person (but is instead God’s power in the world)—a view that contradicts acceptance of belief in the Trinity (item B1.31). Most respondents agreed that the Holy Spirit is God’s power, not a Person in the West-Central Africa (76%), East-Central Africa (71%), Southern Africa-Indian Ocean and South Pacific (65% each) Divisions. The majority of respondents also agreed with this statement in the Southern Asia (63%), and Southern Asia-Pacific (59%) Divisions. Over 40% of respondents agreed with this statement in the North American (41%), Inter-American (43%), and South American (46%) Divisions. In the remaining regions, fewer than one-third of the respondents agreed with the statement, with fewer than 10% agreeing in the Euro-Asia Division (7%) and Ukrainian Union Conference (8%).​
4. As a result of these regional patterns, a majority (57%) of the weighted global sample agreed (23%) or strongly agreed (34%) that the Holy Spirit is not a Person but represents God’s power in the world (item B1. 1). This item was not included in Wave II.​
5. These data suggest that the majority of global church members did not have a clear understanding of the Trinity as consisting of three distinct Persons.
 
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BobRyan

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Forty-one percent believe the Holy Spirit is God’s power in the world, not a person.
41% of what???

41% of a sampling of 1,819 out of 22,000,000 ????

nice try.
Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian
I have seen them disfellowshipped in my local church. A tiny spec of the total number of SDAs in my area all of which accept the Trinity.
 
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BobRyan

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@Leaf473

From the Meta-analysis:


Your link says

"A large majority (81%) of the weighted global sample wholeheartedly embraced belief in
the Trinity (one God, a unity of three eternal equal persons; item B6.1). Another 13%
accepted this belief because the church teaches it (total of 94%). Only 1% had major doubts"

I notice you bury that point such that no one reading your posts would even guess that this is what your source actually says..

but it explains why we do see non-trinitarians disfellowshipped as I pointed out and the fact that the group is such a tiny speck of a number in the general area for SDAs.
 
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tall73

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41% of what???

41% of a sampling of 1,819 out of 22,000,000 ????

nice try.


Incorrect, Bob.

That was for the NAD.

The total study looked at a data set containing 149,556 cases

1711595366072.png


Some quotes:

When comparing the percentages in this report, it will be useful to have a sense of the margin of error in most of these analyses. Even when setting the confidence level at a very conservative 99% (most opinion polling sets the confidence level at 95%), the large sample sizes in this report yield relatively small margins of error. For overall sample numbers, a sample size of 125,000 (most variables have a larger sample size than this for the global percentages) will lead to margins of error between about ±0.1% and ±0.4%.​

And

Thus, a very conservative heuristic for the 99% confidence margin of error on any percentage in the report is ±0.4% on global percentages, ±3% on percentages for most regions, and ±2% on differences in percentages. Most percentages and percentage differences reported in the meta-analysis will have margins of error that are less than these conservative heuristics.​
 
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tall73

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Your link says

"A large majority (81%) of the weighted global sample wholeheartedly embraced belief in
the Trinity (one God, a unity of three eternal equal persons; item B6.1). Another 13%
accepted this belief because the church teaches it (total of 94%). Only 1% had major doubts"

I notice you bury that point such that no one reading your posts would even guess that this is what your source actually says..
In fact Bob, the study shows they accept the belief statement. But then when asked about particulars it shows that they do not really believe in the Trinity at all, as the study points out that they do not see the personhood of the Spirit.

Hence their conclusion (not my conclusion):

5. These data suggest that the majority of global church members did not have a clear understanding of the Trinity as consisting of three distinct Persons.


but it explains why we do see non-trinitarians disfellowshipped as I pointed out and the fact that the group is such a tiny speck of a number in the general area for SDAs.

I think I will wait to see numbers from the denomination, rather than go on your say-so at this point, as you seem to downplay the reports noted earlier of growing non-Trinitarian movements, and the study from your own denomination.

Do you have any denominational reports on disfellowshipping of non-Trinitarians?
 
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BibleLinguist

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I guess I'm late to this discussion, but here are my very brief remarks in answer to each of the false accusations.

False prophecy #1.
Jerusalem will never be built up again, Early Writings, p. 75 - EGW FAILED

Jereusalem will be trampled under foot until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Luke 21:24 -Jesus - Fulfilled
"Jerusalem" is the place where God chose to place His name. How did He do this? By the Temple. When the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given, as per Daniel's prophecy, it entailed the rebuilding of the Temple in addition to the city's walls.

Has that temple been rebuilt? No. Will it be? Not if prophecy is to be believed.

At present, a mosque occupies the site of the Temple, and Jews are still seething about it--a big part of their present war motivations. The city is still "trampled under foot" by the Gentiles to this very day.

False prophecy #2
England will attack the United STATES during the civil war Ellen White, Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 259. - FAILED
Ellen White did not say England would attack the United States during the Civil War. The "false accuser" perhaps misread/misunderstood a point of English grammar; that the word "when" can mean "if". Read carefully:

Said the angel: “Hear, O heavens, the cry of the oppressed, and reward the oppressors double according to their deeds.” This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. England is studying whether it is best to take advantage of the present weak condition of our nation, and venture to make war upon her. She is weighing the matter, and trying to sound other nations. She fears, if she should commence war abroad, that she would be weak at home, and that other nations would take advantage of her weakness. Other nations are making quiet yet active preparations for war, and are hoping that England will make war with our nation, for then they would improve the opportunity to be revenged on her for the advantage she has taken of them in the past and the injustice done them. A portion of the queen's subjects are waiting a favorable opportunity to break their yoke; but if England thinks it will pay, she will not hesitate a moment to improve her opportunities to exercise her power and humble our nation. When England does declare war, all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion. England is acquainted with the diversity of feeling among those who are seeking to quell the rebellion. She well knows the perplexed condition of our Government; she has looked with astonishment at the prosecution of this war—the slow, inefficient moves, the inactivity of our armies, and the ruinous expenses of our nation. The weakness of our Government is fully open before other nations, and they now conclude that it is because it was not a monarchial government, and they admire their own government, and look down, some with pity, others with contempt, upon our nation, which they have regarded as the most powerful upon the globe. Had our nation remained united it would have had strength, but divided it must fall. 1T 259.1


False Prophecy #3
The Civil War is a sign the Jesus is about to Return Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 260 -FAILED
Why is this even considered to be a false prophecy? Jesus has been "about to return" for awhile already. Because his time is not our time, who are we to say he has not kept his promise?

False Prophecy #4
Jesus would return in a few months (1850) Early Writings, p. 58 - FAILED
The word "month" appears nowhere on the page indicated. In fact, the word does not appear in the entire section/chapter, nor in the one preceding nor following this. No prediction was made anywhere on this page giving a time for Jesus' return beyond saying "that time can last but a very little longer." This "#4" is just another false accusation.

False Prophecy #5 Adventist alive in 1856 would be alive to see Jesus return. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 131-132. - FAILED, they are all dead.
Actually, this is yet another false accusation, based on a misunderstanding of what Ellen White said. Read carefully:

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, [Sister Clarissa M. Bonfoey, who fell asleep in Jesus only three days after this vision was given, was present in usual health, and was deeply impressed that she was one who would go into the grave, and stated her convictions to others.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” 1T 131.3

In actual fact, this was a prophecy already partially fulfilled. The angel is saying that "some" will be "food for worms" (i.e. they will die before Jesus comes)--and this is said after Ellen White is shown the company present at the Conference. All of those have died, and become food for worms--with Clarissa Bonfoey being among the first of them. This part of the prophecy has been fully fulfilled. The angel also said that "some" would be "subjects of the seven last plagues" and "some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." These parts of the prophecy await fulfillment. Note that the angel did not say that the "some" of each of these three groups were all present at the Conference. It may be that Mrs. White herself took it that way (she doesn't exactly say so), but a careful reading shows that such an interpretation is not proven based on what the angel said.

False Prophecy #6 Christ would return BEFORE Slavery was Abolished.Early Writings, pp 35 - FAILED Slavery was abolished in 1864.
This again is based on a misunderstanding, because in other portions of her writings she predicts that slavery would be reinstituted. This could not happen unless it was first, for a time, abolished. If her writings are to be believed, once reinstated, slavery will not again be abolished before the return of Christ.

False Prophecy #7 She saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn Early Writings, pp. 39-40- Failed. No one lives on Jupiter or Saturn.
What is wrong with Enoch visiting Jupiter? Seeing him there does not mean he lived there, does it? I would like to visit there, too, when I am free to travel the universe as Enoch is.

All of these "false accusations" boil down to wresting Ellen White's words. The usual reason for doing so is that some truth she shares crossed one's private opinions or condemned one's favorite sins that he or she does not wish to give up. Be careful of rejecting God's messages sent through His designated messengers, whomever that might be. Sometimes God speaks to us through ordinary people. When reproved, we should take it graciously and even gratefully, and not harden our hearts and find fault with the one who reproved us.
 
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tall73

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I guess I'm late to this discussion, but here are my very brief remarks in answer to each of the false accusations.
Given some of your posting in the Adventist section you may want to jump to the end of the thread where we are now discussing the Global survey results regarding views of the Trinity.
 
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BibleLinguist

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A guy at the SDA local church is struggling with this issue. he is a Lawyer he is figuring it out.
I could give you some nice materials that would help him through the process if he's open to seeing what the Bible actually says. There are a couple of mistranslated Bible verses that appear to point contrary to the rest of scripture, but when translated correctly, they align just fine. One of those is Hebrews 1:8, which the Trinitarian translators of the KJV messed up, and virtually all other Bible translations have followed suit. It quotes directly from Psalm 45:6 which was mistranslated in the same fashion. I am so thankful to be learning Hebrew and able to understand these things for myself. Most pastors are misleading the flock on this issue. The Bible speaks of the "unfaithful shepherds." Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled. It will be a sad day.

I would have relegated the topic to the realm of "side issue," except I finally realized how integral it is to the three angels' message of Revelation 14. This is the message of the second angel. The Adventist pioneers had it right; now folk are trying to step off the platform. Though this is prophecy fulfilled, it is devastating to witness. Most Adventists are not presently giving the trumpet a "certain" sound because they aren't certain. There is too much confusion about what the Three Angels' Messages really are, and one cannot teach what one does not understand. Yet this is supposed to be our work--to herald these messages!
 
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The Liturgist

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Have you heard any news on whether 700 plus members taking this non-trinitarian view were disfellowshipped following their completion of the survey?

Any church that claims to follow Nicene Theology and to teach it should anathematize anyone who teaches this and other theories that are Pneumatomacchian (that is the theological term for denying the Holy Spirit is a person, from Pneumatos, meaning Spirit, and Macchos, meaning “fighter”).
 
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Those saying Jesus was God contradict one of these, and imply that he could not have had flesh because God does not.

On the contrary, in saying Jesus is God, we say that Jesus Christ put on our human nature and united it hypostatically with His divine person in the Incarnation, and is thus Theanthropos, fully God and fully man. It has always been anathema among Trinitarians to deny that Jesus had flesh. It was rather the Docetics who claimed that he was not human, and to deny that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is not fully human is as much of a heresy as it is to deny His full divinity.

Here are complete proof texts for the doctrine of the Trinity:

The Nicene Creed​

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Source
 
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Leaf473

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Many Adventists think Ellen White was pro-Trinity, particularly with the publication of her book "The Desire of Ages." However, having attempted to find the support for these claims, through careful study of the book, I have succeeded only in finding counterclaims. It may well be that DA ranks among the most non-Trinitarian of her books. I think most Adventists who have a strong opinion on this subject have not done their own study but have accepted the say-so of someone else.

Neither the Bible, nor Ellen White, supports the Trinity.
The Bible teaches, shown by just three passages, that those who believe Jesus was God are actually against him (spirit of antichrist), ironically.
Hi BibleLinguist, nice to meet you. Do you have any concerns about being disfellowshipped because of your views?

Here are those passages: John 4:24, Luke 24:39, and 1 John 4:2-3. Carefully considered together, it is evident that God is a spirit, a spirit does not have flesh, whereas Jesus had flesh. Those saying Jesus was God contradict one of these, and imply that he could not have had flesh because God does not. Therefore, by Biblical definition, they have the spirit of antichrist, because they deny he came in the flesh.

I am still a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church, and still pay tithes through the church. Jesus' prophecy that "They shall put you out of the synagogues" (John 16:2) has not yet been fulfilled in my case. But for many others, this has already happened. Notice that Jesus gave this prediction to his faithful ones. He did not say that apostates would be removed. For those who have been disfellowshiped, Jesus' words should be meaningful.
 
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