SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[tall73]

Well, there we are. There are researchers at Andrews who are aware of a group that is large enough to warrant study.

More recent info, from 2022, reviewing a book on the issue.

The Heavenly Trio: Exploring the Views of Ellen White and the Adventist ... https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5471&context=pubs

Quote:
Since the mid-2010s the Seventh-day Adventist
Church has experienced a dramatic increase
in antitrinitarian sentiments. The partial or
complete rejection of the church’s Fundamental
Beliefs numbers 2–5 (Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit) is making inroads into many local congrega-
tions. Regardless of the insights on the doctrine
of God that the church has gained in the past 130
years through its study of the Bible, modern-day
antitrinitarian Adventists would want to see the
church return to its antitrinitarian beginnings. This situ-
ation has illustrated the need to better understand doc-
trinal development throughout the history of the church.
In an attempt to meet this urgent need, Ty Gibson’s book
The Heavenly Trio offers a well-articulated response that
has long been overdue. The book is a follow-up to his
The Sonship of Christ, although the new work addresses
primarily a Seventh-day Adventist readership.

 

[BobRyan]

Also, how does the conference take action? Is it representatives from within the conference, or does the entire conference vote on the issue of the allegedly out of line pastor? Is there some kind of ecclesiastical court system?

(Input from anyone welcome )

The conference is an administrative group - they do all the hiring and firing etc.. no conference wide votes etc.

 

[BobRyan]

More recent info, from 2022, reviewing a book on the issue.

The Heavenly Trio: Exploring the Views of Ellen White and the Adventist ... https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5471&context=pubs

Quote:
Since the mid-2010s the Seventh-day Adventist
Church has experienced a dramatic increase
in antitrinitarian sentiments. The partial or
complete rejection of the church’s Fundamental
Beliefs numbers 2–5 (Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit) is making inroads into many local congrega-
tions. Regardless of the insights on the doctrine
of God that the church has gained in the past 130
years through its study of the Bible, modern-day
antitrinitarian Adventists would want to see the
church return to its antitrinitarian beginnings. This situ-
ation has illustrated the need to better understand doc-
trinal development throughout the history of the church.
In an attempt to meet this urgent need, Ty Gibson’s book
The Heavenly Trio offers a well-articulated response that
has long been overdue. The book is a follow-up to his
The Sonship of Christ, although the new work addresses
primarily a Seventh-day Adventist readership.

Says nothing about Ellen White's views during that time in fact we know that it was not until the 1870's that they published their first set of denominational doctrinal beliefs because members were so determined to not be "under a single creed" and did not view themselves as bound to a single body of beliefs. They came together initially as a "movement" that involved many different denominations rather than a single doctrinal structure like our current 28 FB.

As you and I both know.

The details you keep leaving out are very "telling".

 

[BobRyan]

Can anyone from a local church file a complaint or whatever it is called about a leader with the conference?

Yes - but the conference has a lot of incentive to not take up frivolous claims against its own employees/pastors. So it has to be a proven fact.

Within the United Methodist Church, it's supposed to be taken first to the pastor parish relations committee.

There are "Ministerial" directors in each conference that are the lead on these sorts of things.

Since White was originally a Methodist, did she pattern the SDA organizational structure after the Methodist one?

She never had control to the extent of saying "I say you must have this or that organizational structure". It was a committee that made those decisions and organized the first SDA conference.

 

[tall73]

Says nothing about Ellen White's views during that time in fact we know that it was not until the 1870's that they published their first set of denominational doctrinal beliefs because members were so determined to not be "under a single creed" and did not view themselves as bound to a single body of beliefs. They came together initially as a "movement" that involved many different denominations rather than a single doctrinal structure like our current 28 FB.

As you and I both know.

The details you keep leaving out are very "telling".

Bob, you may not be following the conversation closely. That was posted as further evidence of the growing modern antitrinitarian movement in Adventism.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you may not be following the conversation closely. That was posted as further evidence of the growing modern antitrinitarian movement in Adventism.

I know they love that detail - but it does not help your argument a bit since it only widens the door between what Ellen White was raised to believe in as a Trinitarian and the views of people like Uriah Smith and James White who were from the Christian Connexion and were not Trinitarian prior to being Adventist.

Ellen White was certainly not the only former Methodist, former Baptist, former Presbyterian etc - but she was very instrumental in getting the entire group to come into agreement on the topic of the Trinity.

 

[Leaf473]

More recent info, from 2022, reviewing a book on the issue.

The Heavenly Trio: Exploring the Views of Ellen White and the Adventist ... https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5471&context=pubs

Quote:
Since the mid-2010s the Seventh-day Adventist
Church has experienced a dramatic increase
in antitrinitarian sentiments. The partial or
complete rejection of the church’s Fundamental
Beliefs numbers 2–5 (Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit) is making inroads into many local congrega-
tions. Regardless of the insights on the doctrine
of God that the church has gained in the past 130
years through its study of the Bible, modern-day
antitrinitarian Adventists would want to see the
church return to its antitrinitarian beginnings. This situ-
ation has illustrated the need to better understand doc-
trinal development throughout the history of the church.
In an attempt to meet this urgent need, Ty Gibson’s book
The Heavenly Trio offers a well-articulated response that
has long been overdue. The book is a follow-up to his
The Sonship of Christ, although the new work addresses
primarily a Seventh-day Adventist readership.

Very interesting, thanks for that info

 

[Leaf473]

The conference is an administrative group - they do all the hiring and firing etc.. no conference wide votes etc.

Yes - but the conference has a lot of incentive to not take up frivolous claims against its own employees/pastors. So it has to be a proven fact.

There are "Ministerial" directors in each conference that are the lead on these sorts of things.

She never had control to the extent of saying "I say you must have this or that organizational structure". It was a committee that made those decisions and organized the first SDA conference.

Thanks for the information

 

[tall73]

Yes, and notes the movement has been growing for two decades. So they must have some metrics on that.

From December of 2022:

Facing Trinitarian Challenges With Love

Discussing the doctrine of the Trinity is a lot like two humanities majors trying to have an in-depth discussion of particle physics. What we don't know about God is a massively longer list than what we do know.

nwadventists.com

Throughout the years, we've seen a number of various anti-trinitarian ideas move through the church. Another wave seems to be cresting again in the Upper Columbia Conference with materials published by Jean Handwerk and videos by Michael McCaffrey. These are classically non-trinitarian teachings that diminish the nature of the Son and the Spirit in various ways.

 

[tall73]

No doubt context matters and no doubt some conversation was ever had where each of her statements above were not also mentioned.

Yeah, Bob, tell us the context of why she didn't tell the guy who thought Gabriel was the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit is God, and instead said that what the Holy Spirit is hadn't been revealed.

The Adventist historian, researcher, and co-author of the Ellen White encyclopedia already weighed in on it, of course, saying she didn't yet know the Holy Spirit had a personality etc., and she didn't start coming to the conclusions you attribute to her for another two years.

hmm so on that day she did not say what she said on another day.

and with a bit of story telling and extreme inference about someone raised as a methodist you can simply ignore the statements above. Do any of the statements I quote above say "I just found out that..." or "Methodists never knew that..."

No Bob, no story telling needed. She told a confused non-Trinitiarian that it wasn't revealed, instead of telling him about the Trinity.

And of course the Adventist historian picked up on it, despite your allegations of story telling.

Any way you are free to have any story that you wish in that regard - you have free will. I just find your argument very very weak

Not as weak as Ellen White's non-answer about the nature of the Holy Spirit when an Adventist claimed it was Gabriel. But then she wouldn't give any answers on the Holy Spirit of the type you said you would give for another 2 years, after 45 years of not mentioning the personality of the Spirit, the Spirit being part of the Godhead, etc. during her ministry to that point, despite having many confused non-Trinitarians around her.

 

[tall73]

She never made non-trinitarian statements and even you don' t have anything but your own extreme inference for this person raised as a Trinitarian in the Methodist church with strong trinitarian statements published by her - that you try to sweep under a rug as if they won't come out until some SDA doctrine believing Adventist shows up.

a. I posted one of her representative trio statements, considered by many to be her fullest statement, in this thread, on August 30, in post 336, before you even started engaging on the Trinity discussion.

SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

b. I posted the document by the SDA doctrine believing, paid Adventist researcher and co-author of the Ellen White Encyclopedia that not only spelled out those statements, but showed the chronological progression from non-Trinitarian views to more Trinitarian views.

Even YOU should find it a bit "odd" that you are leaving it to me - to share that info with those that follow your posts.

And you should find it a problem to state untruths to the listener.

 

[tall73]

I know they love that detail - but it does not help your argument a bit since it only widens the door between what Ellen White was raised to believe in as a Trinitarian and the views of people like Uriah Smith and James White who were from the Christian Connexion and were not Trinitarian prior to being Adventist.

Of course it helps my argument. It shows:

a. How deep rooted anti-Trinitarian views are in the movement.

b. That many claim anti-Trinitarian views as the original views of Ellen White, (as opposed to you earlier making it sound like that was something only non-SDA's would do).

c. It calls into question your earlier downplaying of how significant the movement is, since we now have found various statements from 2006 to December of last year indicating that the movement is significant, growing, dramatically growing, and making inroads in local congregations, to use the language of the various sources. Official sources have felt it necessary to address the movement, which you downplayed.

Ellen White was certainly not the only former Methodist, former Baptist, former Presbyterian etc - but she was very instrumental in getting the entire group to come into agreement on the topic of the Trinity.

After the 1890's you mean? Her writings early on did far more to uphold James White's criticisms of the Methodist doctrine of the Trinity than to uphold that Trinitarian doctrine. In fact, if you had actually read the document by the Adventist historian Jerry Moon, posted earlier, you would know that some of her statements, and one question in particular that she asked Jesus in vision, were related to disagreements with aspects of the Methodist statement. But perhaps those in the thread who want to know will read it.

 

[tall73]

Trinitarians don't imagine the angels being confused on who the Son of God is. But Ellen White went through multiple revisions of this narrative

It is very hard for some people to consider that just maybe Lucifer was able to dupe super intelligent sinless beings like Angels by taking advantage of the fact that Angels are not all-knowing. And at a time when they do not have the incarnation, the sin experiment etc to "inform them" about detail relationships in the triune Godhead

Bob, you are saying the angels did not know God from other angels. That is absurd. You are saying they didn't know their own Creator, though they were with Him constantly prior to satan's rebellion. The notion that God had to have a meeting to clarify who His Son was is laughable, and un-Biblical.

- it was possible for a detail or two to be accepted by them "by faith" rather than "because every single fact was already fully known".

Possible Bob? You who are claiming that Ellen White was a Trinity expert because she was a young teenager kicked out of the Methodist church, even though she didn't start making anything approaching Trinitarian statements until four decades plus into her ministry, are now claiming the angels who dwelt with God did not know who He was? They didn't know their own Creator?

A lot of folks may wish to jump in there via extreme inference and imagine stuff for us - but that is not very compelling as to just how and why Lucifer was able to dupe them.

Talk about not compelling, there is no extreme inference needed. The entire narrative by Ellen White, of satan calling into question who Jesus was, and the Father having to have a meeting about it, is a non-biblical fabrication, with one non-Trinitarian statement after another.

 

[tall73]

He stated that he had no difference left with the Trinitarian view of One God in Three Persons.

Still waiting on that quote Bob. I already posted the quote regarding him rejecting three in one in 1877:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald | November 29, 1877 | Adventist Digital Library

adventistdigitallibrary.org

The reason why it is not robbery for the Son to be equal with the Father is the fact that he is equal. If the Son is not equal with theFather, then it is robbery for him to rank himself with the Father. The inexplicable trinity that makes the godhead three in one and one in three, is bad enough ; but that ultra Unitarianism that makes Christ inferior to the Father is worse.

-----

And the Merlin Bert article I posted noted that his grandson admitted James did not believe in the Trinity.

But if you have a different quote, again post it. And why didn't you post it to begin with, since you say you have the material?

 

[tall73]

She never made non-trinitarian statements

Of course she did. Let's take a look at some statements in her narrative about satan's fall. And to avoid your usual claim of taking things out of context, we will quote a large section, all in a row, with commentary in the middle of each section. This is about as much of the chapter as I can quote without running afoul of copyright issues here, since it is not a long chapter. However, anyone wanting to read the whole chapter can find it in the link below. Or read the whole book!

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. The Fall of Satan

When God said to His Son, 'Let us make man in our image,' Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. He desired to receive the highest honors in heaven next to God.

www.ellenwhite.info

From Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

​

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. But when God said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image," Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. He desired to receive the highest honors in heaven next to God. {EW 145.1}​

​

Ellen White indicates Jesus has the highest honors next to God, and satan is jealous of that.

​

Until this time all heaven had been in order, harmony, and perfect subjection to the government of God. It was the highest sin to rebel against His order and will. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. Satan, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of Jesus, was insinuating against the government of God. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to His Son.​

​

They advocated for the wisdom of god in giving authority to His Son.

​

There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They wished to look into His unsearchable wisdom, and ascertain His purpose in exalting Jesus and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command.​

​

They wanted to look into the purpose of God in exalting Jesus and ENDOWING Him with such unlimited power and command.

Now Bob, did God the Father have to exalt Jesus and endow Him with power prior to the fall of satan?

 

[tall73]

EllenWhite.Org Website - Changes Made to Ellen White's Writings

ellenwhite.org

This email, now hosted by the White Estate. describes how the pronouns for the Holy Spirit in a devotional on the Holy Spirit were changed for a while from "It" to "He", and then later reversed.


-----------------


Dear Brother ____,

Thank you for contacting the Ellen G. White Estate. I don't recall anything about the book Lift Him Up in this regard, but the question has arisen concerning the devotional book about the Holy Spirit, Ye Shall Receive Power. Here is something I wrote to someone last year who had noted certain places where the pronoun had been changed:

[start quoted material]

Mrs. White herself was not consistent in her use of pronouns for the Holy Spirit. Sometimes she used the masculine pronoun "he" and sometimes she used the neuter pronoun "it." Occasionally she used both in the same article. In general, though, I believe the neuter pronouns tend to cluster in the earlier part of her ministry, and the masculine pronouns appear more in the later years.

When the White Estate put together the devotional book Ye Shall Receive Power, the editors decided that a consistent usage in the book would be desirable for the readers and would do no disservice to Mrs. White's intent. They used the personal pronoun "he." However, after the book's publication, further reflection led to the conclusion that making those changes was really beyond the proper editorial role of the White Estate, and around 1'8 or 1'9 we instructed the publishing house to change certain of the "he" references back to "it" in future printings of the book, to reflect Mrs. White's original usage. When the CD-ROM was reprinted in the year 2000, it incorporated these changes, while the one you have (which presumably was earlier) does not include them. However, it is clear that we missed some of these references, because some that you sent to us have not been changed, while others that you pointed out had already been returned to "it" on the current CD-ROM.

We are grateful for your care in locating these differences and for your having shared them with us. When our Director returned yesterday from a trip, several of us met together with the Chairman of the White Estate Board to discuss the steps needed to restore the remaining references back to their original state.

Again, thank you for calling this to our attention. May the Lord continue to bless and guide your service for Him.

[end of quoted material]


I hope this may clarify it somewhat for you. Let me know if I can be of further service. Thank you for writing, and God bless!

William Fagal Associate Director Ellen G. White Estate 12501 Old Columbia Pike Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 U.S.A. Phone: 301 680-6550 FAX: 301 680-6559 E-mail: mail@WhiteEstate.org Web: www.WhiteEstate.org

 

[Leaf473]

From December of 2022:

Facing Trinitarian Challenges With Love

Discussing the doctrine of the Trinity is a lot like two humanities majors trying to have an in-depth discussion of particle physics. What we don't know about God is a massively longer list than what we do know.

nwadventists.com

Throughout the years, we've seen a number of various anti-trinitarian ideas move through the church. Another wave seems to be cresting again in the Upper Columbia Conference with materials published by Jean Handwerk and videos by Michael McCaffrey. These are classically non-trinitarian teachings that diminish the nature of the Son and the Spirit in various ways.

Looks interesting. I'm going to download the article onto my e-reader, hopefully read it this afternoon

 

[Leaf473]

Of course it helps my argument. It shows:

a. How deep rooted anti-Trinitarian views are in the movement.

b. That many claim anti-Trinitarian views as the original views of Ellen White, and use her quotes to defend that (as opposed to you earlier making it sound like that was something only non-SDA's would do).

c. It calls into question your earlier downplaying of how significant the movement is, since we now have found various statements from 2006 to December of last year indicating that the movement is significant, growing, dramatically growing, and making inroads in local congregations, to use the language of the various sources. Official sources have felt it necessary to address the movement, which you downplayed.

If I recall correctly, the link you give in this post uses the phrase "currently ravaging congregations".

More recent info, from 2022, reviewing a book on the issue.

The Heavenly Trio: Exploring the Views of Ellen White and the Adventist ... https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5471&context=pubs

Quote:
Since the mid-2010s the Seventh-day Adventist
Church has experienced a dramatic increase
in antitrinitarian sentiments. The partial or
complete rejection of the church’s Fundamental
Beliefs numbers 2–5 (Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit) is making inroads into many local congrega-
tions. Regardless of the insights on the doctrine
of God that the church has gained in the past 130
years through its study of the Bible, modern-day
antitrinitarian Adventists would want to see the
church return to its antitrinitarian beginnings. This situ-
ation has illustrated the need to better understand doc-
trinal development throughout the history of the church.
In an attempt to meet this urgent need, Ty Gibson’s book
The Heavenly Trio offers a well-articulated response that
has long been overdue. The book is a follow-up to his
The Sonship of Christ, although the new work addresses
primarily a Seventh-day Adventist readership.

___________________

After the 1890's you mean? Her writings early on did far more to uphold James White's criticisms of the Methodist doctrine of the Trinity than to uphold that Trinitarian doctrine. In fact, if you had actually read the document by the Adventist historian Jerry Moon, posted earlier, you would know that some of her statements, and one question in particular that she asked Jesus in vision, were related to disagreements with aspects of the Methodist statement. But perhaps those in the thread who want to know will read it.

 

[Leaf473]

Say, @BobRyan , as your friend and brother in Christ, I'm wondering what the actual issue is here.

Couldn't a loyal SDA person just say, "Official SDA doctrine endorses the Trinity. Sure, there are people within the church that disagree with this. That just makes us more like the early church"

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 1:11-12 - Good News Translation

For some people from Chloe's family have told me quite plainly, my friends, that there are quarrels among you. Let me put it this way: each one of you says something different. One says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Peter”; and another, “I follow Christ.”

www.biblegateway.com

_______________
As far as Ellen White goes, couldn't it just be said that she had the gift of prophecy, but she wasn't perfect?

That's what I take away from this passage, that the people in Corinth were to judge whether those with the gift of prophecy were speaking correctly or not.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 14:29 - Good News Translation

Two or three who are given God's message should speak, while the others are to judge what they say.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[BobRyan]

Say, @BobRyan , as your friend and brother in Christ, I'm wondering what the actual issue is here.

Couldn't a loyal SDA person just say, "Official SDA doctrine endorses the Trinity. Sure, there are people within the church that disagree with this. That just makes us more like the early church"

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 1:11-12 - Good News Translation

For some people from Chloe's family have told me quite plainly, my friends, that there are quarrels among you. Let me put it this way: each one of you says something different. One says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Peter”; and another, “I follow Christ.”

www.biblegateway.com

We weren't talking about "some person in a pew" but "a pastor teaching doctrinal error" in my prior response to you on that topic - are you changing topics??

_______________
As far as Ellen White goes, couldn't it just be said that she had the gift of prophecy, but she wasn't perfect?

Everyone in the church already says that.

That's what I take away from this passage, that the people in Corinth were to judge whether those with the gift of prophecy were speaking correctly or not.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 14:29 - Good News Translation

Two or three who are given God's message should speak, while the others are to judge what they say.

www.biblegateway.com

1 Cor 14 has nothing in it about "speaking correctly" when reporting a prophecy.

But you can find something along those lines in Gal 1:6-9 and 1 John 4:1-3