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SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the or objections to EGW


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Adventist Dissident

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You seem to be confusing him with someone else. I have known him for decades. He did not go to Andrews. He does hold a theology degree. And he knows Adventist doctrine. But he does not agree with every point of Adventist doctrine.

I think he should leave the Adventist church, but he feels he should reform. Those are usually the choices once you have an issue with points of Adventist doctrine.
I am not sure i want reform, that would be nice, because i have seen and Evanglical SDA church and it was very good, best church I've ever been too. As far as leaving, where would I go. I don't believe in most teaching of Mainline Christianity. not Eternal torment, Sunday is a festival but not a replacement for the Sabbath. I think the SDA lifestyle is good and very benifical, I look at is a who has less error and what trade offs are you making.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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There is no scripture that says we can be in rebellion to God and be saved. Hebrews 10:26-30 makes this case pretty clear along with the very words of Jesus Matthew 7:21-23 and one of the last scriptures of the Bible Rev 22:14-15 we have free will to test any theory we want through
Remember that when, Quoting Ellen White. failed predictions and false prophecy's are to be rejected. Since EGW's prophecies failed it would be a person supporting them that is in Rebellion to God and will be lost, by your own standard. Just because you don't believe you are wrong, dosen't mean you are correct.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Remember that when, Quoting Ellen White. failed predictions and false prophecy's are to be rejected. Since EGW's prophecies failed it would be a person supporting them that is in Rebellion to God and will be lost, by your own standard. Just because you don't believe you are wrong, dosen't mean you are correct.
You haven’t proved anything and EGW points us back to scripture. I have seen the good her books have done bringing people to a closer walk to God and to His Word. So I guess all the Pastors you claim to think so highly of are wrong too and everyone that is in the church, you claim to belong to, is also wrong and I should stop listening to them, and listen to you instead. Thank you, but no thanks.
 
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tall73

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EGW points us back to scripture.

Unless Scripture is presented that goes against her experience, and Adventist "special points". Then she says to not receive those who bring Scriptures.

First Selected Messages, pg 161

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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He does belong to it.
He says he is SEA and has his own fundamental beliefs that differs than the SDA church. Sometimes he claims to be SDA, but wants the SDA to conform to his beliefs, which is not how denominations work. I personally would never belong to a church if I spent most of my time in grievances against, there are other Sabbath-keeping churches if one still wants to keep God's commandment.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Unless Scripture is presented that goes against her experience, and Adventist "special points". Then she says to not receive those who bring Scriptures.

First Selected Messages, pg 161

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.
I've already seen how many things have been taken out of context. EGW has a lot of writings as you previously pointed out and it's easy to take things out of context with vast writings, people do this daily with scripture. I see no difference here. I base my foundations on scripture, most Adventist who came to accept Jesus and except the teachings of the Adventist church did so through scripture alone. EGW is not the messenger for all churches, just the SDA church that anyone is able to accept or reject, just like anything else, since we have free will. I am not interested in debating this further with you, so no need to respond to me with future messages. I wish you well and take care.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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He says he is SEA and has his own fundamental beliefs that differs than the SDA church. Sometimes he claims to be SDA, but wants the SDA to conform to his beliefs, which is not how denominations work. I personally would never belong to a church if I spent most of my time in grievances against, there are other Sabbath-keeping churches if one still wants to keep God's command
I do not have my own fundamentals belifes that differ. I do have a few modified beliefs that differ when you factor out Ellen White. Since she says not to make her writing a test of fellowship and to study from the scripture I took her seriously and did not make her a test and studied from the Scripture. Now you wouldn't want me to disobey the prophet now would you? These were my couconclusions. Here I will list the for you

1. Christ ruling in Jerusalem for 1000 years
2. The sabbath as a sign and prediction of the 1000 years regin
3. Sunday, as mark of the beast, for trying to set up the kingdom of God on earth and not waiting for Jesus to come and rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years.
4. 666 pointing to Solomon God man making a compormise with the world.
5. The prefall nature of Christ. To be fair most of Mainline SDA Church believes this. it is only those that support EGW that believe Jesus had a post fall nature.
6. Soul Sleep - there is a Body, Soul & Spirit and upon death, the Spirit return to God, the Body return to the dust and the Soul goes to Sheol, the Chamber of Darkness and is a sleep. This is in the O.T. After Christ come a Modification take places. if a person accepts Christ, then the Soul will go to heaven for the believer and the unbeliever goes to the Chambers of Darkness asleep.
7. The Advent happens before the tribulation, where the faithful saints are taken out of this world to the Marriage supper of the Lamb and return at the beginning of the 1000 years.
8. changes to the view of the Sabbath to Sunday.
1. Sabbath was kept changed for over 300 years until the time of Constintine, then due to politics , it was the Holiness of the Day was transfered to the first day of the Week or the Lords's day. it was now a sign of loyality to the State. Sabbath was eventually banned due to defection during a time of persecution. It became "anathama" to observe sabbath.
2. The Lord's Day - was established by the Apostles. it was based on the Resurrection and the Jesus Fulfilling the Festivals: Palm Sunday, Resurrection Sunday & Holy Spirit Sunday. All on the first day of the week. It was an ADDITION to the Sabbath observance not a Replacement. It was Observed as a Festival, NOT a Sabbath, NOT a day of no work, until the time of Constantine. Due to Politics Sylverter I the bishop of Rome transfered the Holiness of Sabbath to the Lord's day. Eventually due to politics the Lord's day usurped the Sabbath and then replaced it.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I've already seen how many things have been taken out of context.
Show us what has been taken out of context.

EGW has a lot of writings as you previously pointed out and it's easy to take things out of context with vast writings, people do this daily with scripture. I see no difference here. I base my foundations on scripture, most Adventist who came to accept Jesus and except the teachings of the Adventist church did so through scripture alone.
If you base things on the bible alone then why are you so defensive about EGW? I want to use the bible alone.
EGW is not the messenger for all churches, just the SDA church
that is not the offical line of the SDA Chruch
that anyone is able to accept or reject, just like anything else, since we have free will.
People have free will, but they are not free to reject EGW and remain an SDA. your own statments say that. do you see the contadiction here.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I do not have my own fundamentals belifes that differ. I do have a few modified beliefs that differ when you factor out Ellen White. Since she says not to make her writing a test of fellowship and to study from the scripture I took her seriously and did not make her a test and studied from the Scripture. Now you wouldn't want me to disobey the prophet now would you? These were my couconclusions. Here I will list the for you

1. Christ ruling in Jerusalem for 1000 years
2. The sabbath as a sign and prediction of the 1000 years regin
3. Sunday, as mark of the beast, for trying to set up the kingdom of God on earth and not waiting for Jesus to come and rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years.
4. 666 pointing to Solomon God man making a compermise with the world.
5. The prefall nature of Christ. To be fair most of Mainline SDA Church believes this. it is only those that support EGW that believe Jesus had a post fall nature.
6. Soul Sleep - there is a Body, Soul & Spirit and upon death, the Spirit return to God, the Body return to the dust and the Soul goes to Sheol, the Chamber of Darkness.
The Seventh day Adventist church only has one set of fundamental beliefs that are found here. What do Seventh-day Adventists Believe?

You seem to disagree with some foundational teachings, your free will, but the denomination sets their doctrine, which is what makes up denominations. I personally think it's unfair to claim to be part of an organization, but constantly picking it apart and trying to change their doctrine. Similar to wanting to marry someone but want to criticize and change everything about that person.

Anyway, not interested in debating further, so wish you well and take care.
 
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Leaf473

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(quoting Ellen White)
We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith.
Wow.

You may have posted that before, but this is the first time it clicked :)
 
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Leaf473

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I've already seen how many things have been taken out of context. EGW has a lot of writings as you previously pointed out and it's easy to take things out of context with vast writings, people do this daily with scripture. I see no difference here. I base my foundations on scripture, most Adventist who came to accept Jesus and except the teachings of the Adventist church did so through scripture alone.
EGW is not the messenger for all churches, just the SDA church...
Wait, what? Her messages are not for the body of Christ, but just for certain members of it?

...that anyone is able to accept or reject, just like anything else, since we have free will. I am not interested in debating this further with you, so no need to respond to me with future messages. I wish you well and take care.
 
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tall73

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Those wanting to look at a little bit of Adventist history might find this resolution by the Battle Creek Church in 1870 interesting. It set up a purge of that church, each of the members being examined by two representatives from the General Conference, and most being removed from membership. Out of around 250 members only 12 were left after the trial of each member.

In view of the state of backsliding which has become so established in the Battle Creek church during the years of Bro. White's sickness, the following resolutions were adopted by that church just before the assembling of the General Conference in March last :

" Resolved,

That all who have really become children of God, have received as an assurance of acceptance with him, the gift of the Holy Spirit as a Comforter; even the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba Father. That it is the privilege and duty of the Christian to have this sweet assurance from day to day ; and that it is not safe to trust in past blessings, but that a present, living experience is indispensable. That those who are truly converted, will bear the fruit of the Spirit; that they will have a deep and lively interest in the things of God, and that they will ever be ready to bear testimony for Jesus, and will esteem it a privilege to labor for the conversion of souls, and to sacrifice for the prosperity of the cause. That those who do not possess the character delineated in the foregoing resolutions, lack a genuine Christian experience, and should seek with all the heart for immediate conversion. That those who are not accepted of God are not his children, and should not belong to the church. That we, as a church at Battle Creek, have for a long time been in a backslidden state, fitly described by the message to the Laodiceans. That we have in this condition of blindness and waywardness committed great and grievous sins that have brought dishonor upon the cause of God, and almost destroyed the prosperity of the work here. That the principal cause of our wicked and reckless course of conduct has been that we have disregarded the testimonies given through the gift of prophecy; many having treated them with indifference, and some even with contempt. That the only way of escape from our present deplorable condition lies in a heartfelt confession of our wickedness in the past, that we have set at naught this voice of God to us; and in a strict compliance from this time forward with all which that voice requires. That the salvation of this church depends upon immediate and decisive action, to the end that each of its members give good evidence of conversion, or be promptly disfellowshiped. That unless the church shall be thus thoroughly renovated, it will be unsafe for the Publishing Office or the Health Institute to remain longer in this place. Resolved, furthermore, that as God has repeatedly shown that not only faithful, but picked, men are needed at the heart of the work, we recognize the necessity of the removal from this place of all such persons as are not qualified in both mind and heart to bear the responsibilities peculiar to the post. That, in view of this fact, we do hereby severally pledge ourselves to cheerfully submit to the action of the General Conference, in our individual cases, whether it be decided that we ought to remain in, or remove from, this place."

For more information on these events you can see this article from the Adventist Theological Society:



An interesting quote from the article:

George Washington Amadon lost his job at the Review office when he was disfellowshipped. Similarly, after Dr. Horatio S. Lay was cut off, he was subsequently fired from the Western Health Reform Institute on May 1, 1870. By contrast, and for reasons unknown, Uriah Smith retained his church positions of Review and Herald editor, General Conference secretary, and Michigan Conference president after being disfellowshipped.
 
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Leaf473

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Those wanting to look at a little bit of Adventist history might find this resolution by the Battle Creek Church in 1870 interesting. It set up a purge of that church, each of the members being examined by two representatives from the General Conference, and most being removed from membership. Out of around 250 members only 12 were left after the trial of each member.

In view of the state of backsliding which has become so established in the Battle Creek church during the years of Bro. White's sickness, the following resolutions were adopted by that church just before the assembling of the General Conference in March last :

" Resolved,

That all who have really become children of God, have received as an assurance of acceptance with him, the gift of the Holy Spirit as a Comforter; even the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba Father. That it is the privilege and duty of the Christian to have this sweet assurance from day to day ; and that it is not safe to trust in past blessings, but that a present, living experience is indispensable. That those who are truly converted, will bear the fruit of the Spirit; that they will have a deep and lively interest in the things of God, and that they will ever be ready to bear testimony for Jesus, and will esteem it a privilege to labor for the conversion of souls, and to sacrifice for the prosperity of the cause. That those who do not possess the character delineated in the foregoing resolutions, lack a genuine Christian experience, and should seek with all the heart for immediate conversion. That those who are not accepted of God are not his children, and should not belong to the church. That we, as a church at Battle Creek, have for a long time been in a backslidden state, fitly described by the message to the Laodiceans. That we have in this condition of blindness and waywardness committed great and grievous sins that have brought dishonor upon the cause of God, and almost destroyed the prosperity of the work here. That the principal cause of our wicked and reckless course of conduct has been that we have disregarded the testimonies given through the gift of prophecy; many having treated them with indifference, and some even with contempt. That the only way of escape from our present deplorable condition lies in a heartfelt confession of our wickedness in the past, that we have set at naught this voice of God to us; and in a strict compliance from this time forward with all which that voice requires. That the salvation of this church depends upon immediate and decisive action, to the end that each of its members give good evidence of conversion, or be promptly disfellowshiped. That unless the church shall be thus thoroughly renovated, it will be unsafe for the Publishing Office or the Health Institute to remain longer in this place. Resolved, furthermore, that as God has repeatedly shown that not only faithful, but picked, men are needed at the heart of the work, we recognize the necessity of the removal from this place of all such persons as are not qualified in both mind and heart to bear the responsibilities peculiar to the post. That, in view of this fact, we do hereby severally pledge ourselves to cheerfully submit to the action of the General Conference, in our individual cases, whether it be decided that we ought to remain in, or remove from, this place."

For more information on these events you can see this article from the Adventist Theological Society:



An interesting quote from the article:

George Washington Amadon lost his job at the Review office when he was disfellowshipped. Similarly, after Dr. Horatio S. Lay was cut off, he was subsequently fired from the Western Health Reform Institute on May 1, 1870. By contrast, and for reasons unknown, Uriah Smith retained his church positions of Review and Herald editor, General Conference secretary, and Michigan Conference president after being disfellowshipped.
Interesting! So apparently the "backsliding" was disregarding the testimonies, that is, the messages from Ellen White.
 
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Gary K

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you clearly are talking about someone else, because I never attended Andrews University. your memory is faulty. You are here to support your buddy. you are just trying to fight. I did attend PUC & Union College. I hoId a degree in SDA Theology. I also have lived in Loma LInda, Collegdale, Keene, & Riverside. I was rasided on Auther Maxwell's, "The Bible Stories" and The "Bible in Living Sound". I can tell you what stripples are, fri chick, Special K loaf and HayStacks are. I can tell you what protecting the "edges of the Sabbath" mean. I can tell you what a Ruskett is.

I grew up in Major SDA centers, I was born 5 miles from the place where J.N Loughbourh came and conducted his the first evangelist crusade west of the Rockies in Bloomfield, CA it was a health lecture. I used to drive by the lot were EGW's house in Healdsburg CA on my way to" Pacific Leasure" which used to be called Harris Pine Mills.

If you want I will list all the SDA school's I have Attended. Loma Linda Elementry, Fairview Jr. Academy. Redwood Jr. Academy, Rio Lindo Academy. When I was at PUC, the faculty were, Ivan Blazen, Warren Ashworth, Carl Coffmen, Fred Veltman, John McVay, Greg King, Jean Sheldon, Ginger Hanks-Harwood, Donald John and Perry Tchkuch & Gerald Winslow. The Seinor Pastor was Louis Venden and the Chaplin was Marc Dunn and Keith Jacobsen. I liven on the hill in NIchol Hall the dean was Jim Boyd, the head RA's Were Jim Lorenz and Charles Hartman. My family member just retired from the SDA pastorate at PUC.

When I attended at Union. The Religion faculty was Sig Roske, Tony Minear, Tom Shepard, Ward Hill, Betirice Neil and Victor Brown Roger Lucas. While I was there since I live there for a long time the Factulty replaced Lucaus, Roske, brown Neil & MInear, then Added Sylvester Case, Ed Allen, Bob Fetrick and one other person at the time. The Chaplin Was Rich Carlson the Seinor Pastors that were there Greg Nelson (brother of Dwight Nelson), Dan Goddered, Keith Jacobsen, Ron Halverson Jr. Dan Goddered died about 2 years in.

I was baptizied as a result of a Doug Bathclor crusade in 1987. It was the Crusade in which John Lomacang came out from Flordia. Doug talked him up real big, Doug was Driving a Brown Nissan Pathfinder and John was driving a White Toyota Forerunner with silver running boards on the side.

Now do you need more. My SDA credibility and Linage is impecible, and my memory is just fine. you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Tall73 & Sophia7 can verify my time at Union. that is how we know each other.
Yeah, and you've never discussed anything with me concerning anything to do with Ellen White in the following forum?

 
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Gary K

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Interesting! So apparently the "backsliding" was disregarding the testimonies, that is, the messages from Ellen White.
You're almost hopping up and down with joy to see an ex Adventist criticizing the Adventist church. I wonder how many ex church members of your denomination have negative things to say about yours?
 
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Gary K

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I fail to see how that proves anything, since if EGW did claim that the wearing of wigs would cause insanity, that information is known to be inaccurate. On the other hand, having a steel bar driven straight through your brain will cause damage, however, the remarks made about a failure of his moral character are not justified since the change in the personality of Mr. Gauge was due to a physical injury, brain damage, as opposed to any kind of personality disorder or character flaw. I would further note his use of alcohol could well have been due to reasons of pain, and the lack of availability of proper pain management, given his serious injury. It is worth noting that in the early 19th century before the widespread use of morphine and ether for analgesiac and anaesthetic purposes began, anaesthesiology did not exist as a discipline, and pain management was frequently accomplished using strong liquor. This fact makes me regard as particularly cruel early advocates of the temperance movement - it is fine to advocate for abstinence from alcohol now that we have medicine to treat pain and medicine to treat alcohol addicition and safe drinking water, but in the mid 19th century, temperance was actually dangerous in many contexts, owing to the antiseptic and analgesic properties of alcohol.

I would also note that if it was claimed by EGW that scripture teaches that consuming alcohol is inherently sinful, and i really hope she didn’t say that, that would also be an error, as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch who like me is an enthusiast of gourmet beer would attest (unfortunately, due to a health problem not caused by alcohol consumption but rather probably caused by a hereditary disease, I am no longer able to easily consume more than a sip of alcohol, although my doctors are working on it and the problem does not appear to be due to a liver defect or damage, as I have never consumed much tylenol and I have never been drunk in my life, indeed on the one occasion when I did try to get drunk, which was a sin, by the way, I failed as I was stopped by a headache and gastrointestinal discomfort while trying to drink a bottle of cheap vodka, so alas, I have never been drunk and only twice have I experienced any kind of euphoria that I could associate with drinking alcohol, on both occasions while being entertained by a friend I was in business with).

Also, to reiterate, as I said at the beginning of this post, there is no evidence that wearing wigs causes insanity, and if EGW made that claim, she was in error. I am not familiar with whether or not she said that, but if anyone really believes that, considering that there are charities like Locks of Love which donate wigs for the use of children who have cancer and are receiving chemotherapy, and also many women suffer hair loss and wear wigs, and also many men who have had injuries to their scalps, I really just can’t object to it on any moral grounds at all and there is no evidence it causes insanity. So I am assuming that EGW did not say that but was rather making the sophisticated argument that @BobRyan referred to.
As an ex alcoholic I can say with authority just how damaging alcohol is. I say ex because God gave me the victory over it decades ago. I have the alcoholic gene as alcoholism ran in his family. His father was an alcoholic and died in a boating accident that only happened because he was too drunk to see a thunderstorm coming on Lake Superior and I got puking drunk the very first time I tasted alcohol.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Yeah, and you've never discussed anything with me concerning anything to do with Ellen White in the following forum?

We may have talked in the past, I have never denied that. but if you are talking about me then you need to get your facts straight. I never went to Andrews University. Saying stuff about me that is not true does not help your crediblity. i did say went to SDA colleges yes, lived at SDA universities. yes but never Andrews.
 
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Leaf473

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You're almost hopping up and down with joy...
Not true.

...to see an ex Adventist criticizing the Adventist church.
Our brother @tall73 posts lots of interesting research findings.

If you would like to post findings from your research of White's writings, that would be great, too!

I wonder how many ex church members of your denomination have negative things to say about yours?
I'm not part of a denomination, but I'm sure people I've attended church with in the past have negative things to say about those churches.

That's why it's good to hear both sides :)

 
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BobRyan

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We may have talked in the past, I have never denied that. but if you are talking about me then you need to get your facts straight. I never went to Andrews University. Saying stuff about me that is not true does not help your crediblity. i did say went to SDA colleges yes, lived at SDA universities. yes but never Andrews.
I am one of those that did go to Andrews.
 
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