SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[BobRyan]

Those wanting to look at a little bit of Adventist history might find this resolution by the Battle Creek Church in 1870 interesting. It set up a purge of that church, each of the members being examined by two representatives from the General Conference, and most being removed from membership. Out of around 250 members only 12 were left after the trial of each member.

A one off event were 240 people were dissfellowshipped in this denomination? wow! Who would have thought that 240 people could have been disfellowshipped at some point in history?

"a little bit" indeed.

 

[tall73]

You're almost hopping up and down with joy to see an ex Adventist criticizing the Adventist church. I wonder how many ex church members of your denomination have negative things to say about yours?

He was commenting on what the people in the Battle Creek Church of 1870 said. Why is that a problem?

This is the theology area. We discuss theology.

Your church sees the papacy as the anti-Christ that will join with protestants in the United States to persecute the remnant. Acting like Adventists don't criticize other denominations is a non-starter.

The Great Controversy

m.egwwritings.org

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You're almost hopping up and down with joy to see an ex Adventist criticizing the Adventist church. I wonder how many ex church members of your denomination have negative things to say about yours?

I'm not an ex Adventist, in fact I'm at potluck right now, and I still criticize Ellen White. Ummm!!!! Haystacks

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I wish I could have gone to Andrews almost did.

 

[tall73]

A one off event were 240 people were dissfellowshipped in this denomination? wow! Who would have thought that 240 people could have been disfellowshipped at some point in history?

"a little bit" indeed.

Well in fairness Bob, it was not just any old church. It was a church full of denominational leaders, and the purge included such folks as Uriah Smith who was then Michigan Conference president, General Conference Secretary and editor of one of the prominent magazines.

And the primary issue, in their own words, was their reception of the testimonies. So it certainly relates to our discussion to this point.

 

[tall73]

I am one of those that did go to Andrews.

Great! Well you will be happy to know that the man Andrews was quite involved in the little Adventist history lesson.

Another reason for people to read it.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I am one of those that did go to Andrews.

Good for you it was not theology, was it? What was your major?

 

[tall73]

As an ex alcoholic I can say with authority just how damaging alcohol is. I say ex because God gave me the victory over it decades ago. I have the alcoholic gene as alcoholism ran in his family. His father was an alcoholic and died in a boating accident that only happened because he was too drunk to see a thunderstorm coming on Lake Superior and I got puking drunk the very first time I tasted alcohol.

Alcohol certainly is damaging, and I hope people don't start drinking. I would prefer no one drink.

I worked accident claims for some years and can say that alcohol plays a terrible role in such things. And alcohol is also consumed by a sizable percentage of rape perpetrators and victims.

But while the Bible warns against the deceptive nature of alcohol, and says the one deceived thereby is not wise, the Bible does not forbid alcohol. It does forbid drunkenness.

A text that makes it very plain that alcohol was not forbidden is the Nazarite vow of Numbers 6. A person taking the vow would not consume wine. After the vow they would resume drinking wine:

Numbers 6:6 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman [a]consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.

Numbers 6:20 and the priest shall wave them as a wave offering before the Lord; they are holy for the priest, together with the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering. After that the Nazirite may drink wine.’

It makes sense to point out the dangers of alcohol, but it goes beyond what the text says to indicate it is forbidden.

 

[Gary K]

Alcohol certainly is damaging, and I hope people don't start drinking. I would prefer no one drink.

I worked accident claims for some years and can say that alcohol plays a terrible role in such things. And alcohol is also consumed by a sizable percentage of rape perpetrators and victims.

But while the Bible warns against the deceptive nature of alcohol, and says the one deceived thereby is not wise, the Bible does not forbid alcohol. It does forbid drunkenness.

A text that makes it very plain that alcohol was not forbidden is the Nazarite vow of Numbers 6. A person taking the vow would not consume wine. After the vow they would resume drinking wine:

Numbers 6:6 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman [a]consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.

Numbers 6:20 and the priest shall wave them as a wave offering before the Lord; they are holy for the priest, together with the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering. After that the Nazirite may drink wine.’

It makes sense to point out the dangers of alcohol, but it goes beyond what the text says to indicate it is forbidden.

It is far worse than you think. How many abortions or single mother births happen because of drinking? The results of this are increased poverty and child abuse. As someone who was abused as a kid and up into my mid twenties by my entire family I can tell you the cost is extremely high to both the individual and society. I had zero confidence in myself so I never lived up to my potential. And I had a bad temper from it too. Part of that was inherited, but only a small part as I'm a pretty easy going guy by temperament. Drinking also destroys spirituality. Nadab and Abihu are outstanding examples of this.

 

[tall73]

It is far worse than you think. How many abortions or single mother births happen because of drinking? The results of this are increased poverty and child abuse. As someone who was abused as a kid and up into my mid twenties by my entire family I can tell you the cost is extremely high to both the individual and society. I had zero confidence in myself so I never lived up to my potential. And I had a bad temper from it too. Part of that was inherited, but only a small part as I'm a pretty easy going guy by temperament. Drinking also destroys spirituality. Nadab and Abihu are outstanding examples of this.

Yes, I would agree it also contributes to abuse, as well as a number of other ills. And it is good to warn people about it.

But the Scriptures still do not forbid it.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, I would agree it also contributes to abuse, as well as a number of other ills. And it is good to warn people about it.

But the Scriptures still do not forbid it.

So even though it is far worse than you thought you would not get rid of it, I also noticed that you completely ignored my example of Nadab and Abihu. Why? I would not legally prohibit it as we cannot makie laws like that. That leads to persecution not liberty.

Sin is self destructive and alcohol use is self destructive so they are parallel behaviors.

 

[Leaf473]

But the Scriptures still do not forbid it.

And that's the key, imo. If the scriptures don't forbid something, there we are. The thing may still be bad.

"This scripture (Jeremiah 22:13-17) pictures the work of those who manufacture and who sell intoxicating liquor."

The Ministry of Healing, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 27: Liquor Traffic and Prohibition

Every year millions upon millions of gallons of intoxicating liquors are consumed. Millions upon millions of dollars are spent in buying wretchedness, poverty, disease, degradation, lust, crime, and death.

www.ellenwhite.info

While I would dislike the idea of manufacturing alcohol, I think Ellen has probably gone beyond the scriptures at this point.

But she's got some good ideas there

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:
And it is good to warn people about it.

But the Scriptures still do not forbid it.

So even though it is far worse than you thought you would not get rid of it,

Your response seems to bear no resemblance to what I said.

I said the SCRIPTURES do not forbid it. I mentioned earlier the Scriptures forbid drunkeness. They were written long before i said anything one way or the other.

As to what I did say as to my attitude towards it:

-Alcohol certainly is damaging, and I hope people don't start drinking. I would prefer no one drink.
-And it is good to warn people about it.
-It makes sense to point out the dangers of alcohol

I do get rid of it in my own life. I advise people to get rid of it in their life, and I mention the teaching of Scripture about the deceptive nature of wine, and strong drink. I also reference Scripture which prohibits drunkenness.

I also noticed that you completely ignored my example of Nadab and Abihu. Why?

Because I didn't feel a need to add to what you said.

I would not legally prohibit it as we cannot makie laws like that. That leads to persecution not liberty.

So noted.

Sin is self destructive and alcohol use is self destructive so they are parallel behaviors.

My point was that we should not say the Scriptures forbid alcohol when they do not. See Numbers 6 above for evidence.

I am fully on board with discouraging alcohol use.

 

[Gary K]

tall73 said:
And it is good to warn people about it.

But the Scriptures still do not forbid it.




Your response seems to bear no resemblance to what I said.

I said the SCRIPTURES do not forbid it. I mentioned earlier the Scriptures forbid drunkeness. They were written long before i said anything one way or the other.

As to what I did say as to my attitude towards it:

-Alcohol certainly is damaging, and I hope people don't start drinking. I would prefer no one drink.
-And it is good to warn people about it.
-It makes sense to point out the dangers of alcohol

I do get rid of it in my own life. I advise people to get rid of it in their life, and I mention the teaching of Scripture about the deceptive nature of wine, and strong drink. I also reference Scripture which prohibits drunkenness.



Because I didn't feel a need to add to what you said.



So noted.



My point was that we should not say the Scriptures forbid alcohol when they do not. See Numbers 6 above for evidence.

I am fully on board with discouraging alcohol use.

OK. I misunderstood you. Sorry.

However the very close parallels between sin and alcohol use are reason enough to ban it;s use in a chrch especially when it's use destroys spiritual understanding. It wasn't for no reason that God killed Aaron's sons and said no priest could use alcohol when doing his priestly duties.

Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So since we are considered kings and priests and our priestly duties include witnessing for God should we be using alcohol? Should it not be banned in the church which is a group of priests?

 

[tall73]

OK. I misunderstood you. Sorry.

However the very close parallels between sin and alcohol use are reason enough to ban it;s use in a chrch especially when it's use destroys spiritual understanding. It wasn't for no reason that God killed Aaron's sons and said no priest could use alcohol when doing his priestly duties.



So since we are considered kings and priests and our priestly duties include witnessing for God should we be using alcohol? Should it not be banned in the church which is a group of priests?

My church does not use alcohol in communion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My church does not use alcohol in communion.

Nor does mine, but I have no problem whatsoever with those who do.

 

[The Liturgist]

My church does not use alcohol in communion.

Mine doesn’t either. The Holy Spirit changes the wine into the actual blood of our Lord before we partake of it. It is literally impossible to get drunk on it. In fact I have never heard of anyone having a relapse into alcoholism from receiving the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church. Have you @prodromos or @HTacianas ? I suspect this is a reason why we haven’t needed to provide musk as an alternative to canonical church wine.

Of course if one did inadvertently consume canonical church wine that had not become the blood of our Lord, it is extremely low in alcohol content, and is furthermore mixed with boiling hot water before being distributed. I am not comfortable describing the exact method of distribution but one can view videos on YouTube where it is entirely clear how we celebrate the Eucharist.

 

[prodromos]

Mine doesn’t either. The Holy Spirit changes the wine into the actual blood of our Lord before we partake of it. It is literally impossible to get drunk on it. In fact I have never heard of anyone having a relapse into alcoholism from receiving the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church. Have you @prodromos or @HTacianas ? I suspect this is a reason why we haven’t needed to provide musk as an alternative to canonical church wine.

One of the priests I know related how when he was serving as Deacon with the Archbishop, was given the task of consuming what was left over after Holy Communion which in this case turned out to be quite a lot, as they overestimated how many people would be receiving communion.
Immediately after the Liturgy, he had to run a few errands for the Archbishop which involved him driving to a few locations during which he was stopped by Police for a random breath test. He was not yet on his full licence, and under Australian laws those on Learner's permits or Provisional Licenses are not permitted to have any alcohol in their bloodstream when driving.

Despite having consumed a large cup of what had been wine prior to the Liturgy less than an hour before, he blew zero in the breath test.

 

[Gary K]

My church does not use alcohol in communion.

Good. Glad to hear it.

 

[Leaf473]

One of the priests I know related how when he was serving as Deacon with the Archbishop, was given the task of consuming what was left over after Holy Communion which in this case turned out to be quite a lot, as they overestimated how many people would be receiving communion.
Immediately after the Liturgy, he had to run a few errands for the Archbishop which involved him driving to a few locations during which he was stopped by Police for a random breath test. He was not yet on his full licence, and under Australian laws those on Learner's permits or Provisional Licenses are not permitted to have any alcohol in their bloodstream when driving.

Despite having consumed a large cup of what had been wine prior to the Liturgy less than an hour before, he blew zero in the breath test.

One thing I noticed when I raised my head above my "Assemblies of God only" background is that other groups had miracles just like we did.

Orthodox and Catholics have Eucharistic miracles, "Mary miracles" as well, I believe...

I say Amen to any miracle God wants to do. If it doesn't fit with my theology, well, that's okay.

One thing that troubles me about White's teaching is that I think she says the Catholic Church is Babylon the great. (Of course, some other Protestant groups do that, as well.)

It's a very divisive idea, imo.