SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[bbbbbbb]

One thing I noticed when I raised my head above my "Assemblies of God only" background is that other groups had miracles just like we did.

Orthodox and Catholics have Eucharistic miracles, "Mary miracles" as well, I believe...

I say Amen to any miracle God wants to do. If it doesn't fit with my theology, well, that's okay.

One thing that troubles me about White's teaching is that I think she says the Catholic Church is Babylon the great. (Of course, some other Protestant groups do that, as well.)

It's a very divisive idea, imo.

These sorts of things are usually intentionally divisive. I think it is generally motivated by pride - we are God's special people and others are condemned by Him. We see this in all the various divisions in Christianity (not to mention other religions such as Islam). It develops brand identity and, theoretically, loyalty of its adherents.

 

[Leaf473]

These sorts of things are usually intentionally divisive. I think it is generally motivated by pride - we are God's special people and others are condemned by Him. We see this in all the various divisions in Christianity (not to mention other religions such as Islam). It develops brand identity and, theoretically, loyalty of its adherents.

Definitely, you took the words out of my brain

 

[SabbathBlessings]

These sorts of things are usually intentionally divisive. I think it is generally motivated by pride - we are God's special people and others are condemned by Him. We see this in all the various divisions in Christianity (not to mention other religions such as Islam). It develops brand identity and, theoretically, loyalty of its adherents.

Only God can judge the heart, and anyone can be God's special people Rev 14:12 all are invited, but few are chosen Mat 22:14 meaning few listen.

 

[Leaf473]

Only God can judge the heart, and anyone can be God's special people Rev 14:12 all are invited, but few are chosen Mat 22:14 meaning few listen.

This passage came to my mind.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 1:11 - New King James Version

For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[bbbbbbb]

Definitely, you took the words out of my brain

 

[The Liturgist]

One thing I noticed when I raised my head above my "Assemblies of God only" background is that other groups had miracles just like we did.

Orthodox and Catholics have Eucharistic miracles, "Mary miracles" as well, I believe...

I say Amen to any miracle God wants to do. If it doesn't fit with my theology, well, that's okay.

One thing that troubles me about White's teaching is that I think she says the Catholic Church is Babylon the great. (Of course, some other Protestant groups do that, as well.)

It's a very divisive idea, imo.

Actually Orthodox miracles cover a huge range…I would say furthermore that while some of our Miracles have a Mariological component, all Orthodox miracles are Christological. The website mystagogy does a good job reporting on EO miracles such as the interesting incident where an unknown bishop appeared in a small Romanian village which had been without a parish priest for decades and performed baptisms, heard confessions and celebrated the Eucharist in 2009, renewing the Christian faith of the people. When the local bishop heard that an unknown bishop had celebrated the Eucharist and other sacraments in his diocese, he was understandably perturbed, as one of the cardinal rules of the Orthodox Church, and formerly of the Roman church before they decided to adopt Papal Supremacy and later Papal Infallibility, is that only the diocesan bishop and his presbyters can celebrate the Eucharist in his diocese, with visiting bishops requiring his permission and visiting priests requiring both his blessing and the blessing of their diocesan bishop, since you don’t want priests leaving their assigned parishes and going elsewhere and thus neglecting their flock. At any rate when the diocesan bishop read the parish records book wherein records of all baptisms are kept, he was surprised to see the Greek signature of St. Nectarios, who had reposed in the 1920s. Surprised, but not incredulous, as this thing is known for happening in Orthodoxy. Indeed St. Abanoub, a child martyr killed by Diocletian at the age of 12, has appeared at several Coptic Orthodox churches and has even been photographed, as @dzheremi can confirm, and prevented some boys who were in the street from being.run over by a car. There is a good website on miracles in the Coptic church, where I read about the St. Abanoub incident.

 

[Leaf473]

Actually Orthodox miracles cover a huge range…I would say furthermore that while some of our Miracles have a Mariological component, all Orthodox miracles are Christological. The website mystagogy does a good job reporting on EO miracles such as the interesting incident where an unknown bishop appeared in a small Romanian village which had been without a parish priest for decades and performed baptisms, heard confessions and celebrated the Eucharist in 2009, renewing the Christian faith of the people. When the local bishop heard that an unknown bishop had celebrated the Eucharist and other sacraments in his diocese, he was understandably perturbed, as one of the cardinal rules of the Orthodox Church, and formerly of the Roman church before they decided to adopt Papal Supremacy and later Papal Infallibility, is that only the diocesan bishop and his presbyters can celebrate the Eucharist in his diocese, with visiting bishops requiring his permission and visiting priests requiring both his blessing and the blessing of their diocesan bishop, since you don’t want priests leaving their assigned parishes and going elsewhere and thus neglecting their flock. At any rate when the diocesan bishop read the parish records book wherein records of all baptisms are kept, he was surprised to see the Greek signature of St. Nectarios, who had reposed in the 1920s. Surprised, but not incredulous, as this thing is known for happening in Orthodoxy. Indeed St. Abanoub, a child martyr killed by Diocletian at the age of 12, has appeared at several Coptic Orthodox churches and has even been photographed, as @dzheremi can confirm, and prevented some boys who were in the street from being.run over by a car. There is a good website on miracles in the Coptic church, where I read about the St. Abanoub incident.

Very interesting, thanks for posting that

 

[The Liturgist]

These sorts of things are usually intentionally divisive. I think it is generally motivated by pride - we are God's special people and others are condemned by Him. We see this in all the various divisions in Christianity (not to mention other religions such as Islam). It develops brand identity and, theoretically, loyalty of its adherents.

In the case of the miracles that occur within Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, to a large extent there is often a shared recognition of several of them, with the exception of a few which are divisive by nature, like Fatima. But the majority, for example, the myrhh-streaming relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, which are presently kept in a Roman Catholic parish in Italy, where the myrrh is collected by Roman Catholic priests, are accepted by both groups, and the myrhh from the relics of St. Nicholas is highly sought by the Orthodox, and freely given by the Catholics, who also did return the relics of the three holy hierarchs (I actually wish they hadn’t, because the relics were interred at St. George’s Cathedral in Istanbul, and I worry about militant Muslims seeking to destroy them due to the toxic effect of the Islamist Erdogan regime in Turkey).

 

[Leaf473]

In the case of the miracles that occur within Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, to a large extent there is often a shared recognition of several of them, with the exception of a few which are divisive by nature, like Fatima. But the majority, for example, the myrhh-streaming relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, which are presently kept in a Roman Catholic parish in Italy, where the myrrh is collected by Roman Catholic priests, are accepted by both groups, and the myrhh from the relics of St. Nicholas is highly sought by the Orthodox, and freely given by the Catholics, who also did return the relics of the three holy hierarchs (I actually wish they hadn’t, because the relics were interred at St. George’s Cathedral in Istanbul, and I worry about militant Muslims seeking to destroy them due to the toxic effect of the Islamist Erdogan regime in Turkey).

Not wanting to speak for @bbbbbbb, but I took his post to be referring to particular teachings, things like the teachings that Ellen White put forward.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not wanting to speak for @bbbbbbb, but I took his post to be referring to particular teachings, things like the teachings that Ellen White put forward.

Indeed. That said, I forgot to mention in my post that the high church Anglicans tend to accept most Orthodox and Roman Catholic miracles. For example, All Saints Margaret Street in London has a devotional mass on most Saturdays to Our Lady of Walsingham.

 

[tall73]

Nor does mine, but I have no problem whatsoever with those who do.

Since Scripture doesn't forbid it I do not either. But I know of no theological objection to grape juice being used either, and since we have the means to preserve juice without fermentation and some do object to alcohol (especially those with a history of alcoholism, as a member of the church I was attending had) I think it is the most sensible course.

 

[tall73]

Indeed.

To answer your question from the other thread, James White did get on board with the investigative judgment eventually, likely well into the 1850's from the looks of it.

The notion started in limited form with a pre-SDA millerite proponent. The Millerite movement brought together very diverse groups, and so there were a number of different doctrines bubbling under the surface of the 2nd Adventist expectations. While the movement was going prior to the disappointment these largely took a back seat, as they didn't want to splinter the movement.

However, this was one idea that eventually resurfaced, now in relation to the sanctuary message. The nearly immediate explanation of what happened in 1844 after the disappointment was that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place in connection with the rites of the Day of Atonement. Crosier, etc. spelled out these views. But the investigative judgment was not part of that early on.

They expected the delay to be quite short, initially.

As time went on some began to press for the notion of an investigative judgment again, and it also would explain some of the delay as they now tied it to the work of the Day of Atonement.

At the same time folks like James White was more interested in a related topic that came up in that thread, which was a judgment during the 1k years.

Eventually both came to be accepted by the church, including James White.

And no, James White was an influential leader in the church, but he was never considered a prophet.

Another doctrine that was under the surface was the Adventist view of death, which some brought from their previous churches.

And through Seventh-day Baptists the Sabbath also was circulating among Millerites, and eventually former Millerites.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not wanting to speak for @bbbbbbb, but I took his post to be referring to particular teachings, things like the teachings that Ellen White put forward.

That is quite correct. Thank you.

 

[tall73]

Indeed.

I mentioned another topic of interest for you. This statement gets into Christology.


Ellen White: The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1

The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1

m.egwwritings.org

Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God's dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God's dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. 1SP 17.1

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him. 1SP 17.2

Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God, had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? 1SP 18.1

He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into his unsearchable wisdom and ascertain his purposes in exalting his Son Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. 1SP 18.2

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since Scripture doesn't forbid it I do not either. But I know of no theological objection to grape juice being used either, and since we have the means to preserve juice without fermentation and some do object to alcohol (especially those with a history of alcoholism, as a member of the church I was attending had) I think it is the most sensible course.

The question then becomes, where does one draw the line. One example comes to mind. For many decades the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) used wine in their weekly communion service. However, in the early twentieth century it was banned because of its alcoholic content (all alcohol is forbidden in Mormonism). Rather than using grape juice, which might be construed as alcoholic, they use water.

There are areas in the world where wine or grape juice are very difficult and/or expensive to procure. Would tomato juice be acceptable? Or red cool-aide?

 

[tall73]

The question then becomes, where does one draw the line. One example comes to mind. For many decades the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) used wine in their weekly communion service. However, in the early twentieth century it was banned because of its alcoholic content (all alcohol is forbidden in Mormonism). Rather than using grape juice, which might be construed as alcoholic, they use water.

There are areas in the world where wine or grape juice are very difficult and/or expensive to procure. Would tomato juice be acceptable? Or red cool-aide?

Hm, will have to think on that.

 

[tall73]

Also something that came up in the other thread. Ellen White apparently grants Satan omnipresence, having him in two places at once during the Investigative judgment.

In Early Writings Ellen White says Satan is in the heavenly holy place busy answering the prayers of those Christians who rejected Miller's "heavenly" message about Jesus coming in 1843.


Early Writings:

Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. [56]

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children


And


And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.


And in Great Controversy Satan is simultaneously in the Most Holy Place accusing the professed followers of God in the investigative judgment:

Great Controversy:

While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.


This is all a bit strange, because while Satan is the accuser of the bretheren, and did famously accuse Job, etc. Revelation 12 shows us that Satan was cast out of heaven following Jesus' ascension. But Ellen White has him in the heavenly Holy Place AND the Most Holy Place--at the same time.


Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Given the timing of the birth of the child, etc. this appears to be a different struggle than when Jesus in the gospels referenced seeing satan fall like lightning from heaven.

 

[prodromos]

I mentioned another topic of interest for you. This statement gets into Christology.


Ellen White: The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1

The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1

m.egwwritings.org

Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God's dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God's dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. 1SP 17.1

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him. 1SP 17.2

Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God, had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? 1SP 18.1

He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into his unsearchable wisdom and ascertain his purposes in exalting his Son Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. 1SP 18.2

She certainly had a vivid imagination.

 

[The Liturgist]

I mentioned another topic of interest for you. This statement gets into Christology.


Ellen White: The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1

The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1

m.egwwritings.org

Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God's dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God's dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone. 1SP 17.1

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him. 1SP 17.2

Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the height of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God, had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself? 1SP 18.1

He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. There was contention among the angels. Satan and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into his unsearchable wisdom and ascertain his purposes in exalting his Son Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son. 1SP 18.2

I feel compelled to ask @bob Ryan: how do you reconcile the above text with your avowed belief in the co-eternality and co-equality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Is it the case that the coequality of the Father and the Logos is not itself eternal but temporal? Also, how can the above be reconciled with John 1:1-5, which clearly establishes that it was through the Son all things were made, which would include created beings like the archangels including the fallen archangel which became the devil*, so I fail to see why God would need to gather together various eternal beings to present His son to them. This also clashes with the concept of eternality itself, since God and the angels exist beyond time, how could this, as a discrete event in linear time, even happen? Every eternal being whose attendance was desired would have to temporarily enter into creation in order to receive such a revelation, but upon exiting and returning to eternity, the nature of eternity is such that the knowledge of the event would always have been known. Note that Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 correspond to the nature of eternity I am referring to.

*It must be stressed that the aforementioned writing is correct in that the downfall of the devil was according to his own choice, since God created him with free will, for to create beings without free will Is contrary, I would argue, to the idea of God as being purely loving, since free will is required in order for us to truly love God in the fullest sense of the word. Furthermore, I would argue that God being infinitely good does not create evil, but rather evil exists as a result of intelligent beings choosing not to love God but to set themselves against Him for various petulant, intransigent and self-centered reasons.

 

[The Liturgist]

The question then becomes, where does one draw the line. One example comes to mind. For many decades the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) used wine in their weekly communion service. However, in the early twentieth century it was banned because of its alcoholic content (all alcohol is forbidden in Mormonism). Rather than using grape juice, which might be construed as alcoholic, they use water.

There are areas in the world where wine or grape juice are very difficult and/or expensive to procure. Would tomato juice be acceptable? Or red cool-aide?

The answer is no. On occasion, in Islamic lands, when attempts were made to cut the Assyrian Church of the East and the Syriac Orthodox Church off from sacramental wine, they resorted to, as an emergency procedure, extracting juice from raisins by soaking them in water, but this was a desperate measure.

It should also be noted that several of the most ancient canons were violated by the Mormons when they decided to celebrate the Eucharist with water. This was specifically the heresy of the Hydroparastatae, also known as the Aquarians, who would offer water instead of wine mixed with water (which was canonically required in every ancient church except the Armenian church, which alone used undiluted wine, the reason for this being the blood and water that poured from the side of God, and also to a much lesser extent, the fact that consuming undiluted wine in antiquity was regarded as a Barbarian practice in the Roman Empire and most of its neighboring civilizations, obviously with the exception of the Armenians, however, the Romans did not merely dilute wine with boiling water, as is the ancient Christian practice still used by most of the Orthodox, except the Armenians, but rather mixed wine with water or juice or and various spices, much like the Mulled Wine traditionally consumed in England, served hot, during the winter months, especially around Christmas, which is delicious, by the way.