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Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

ClementofA

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Translation does not mean adding words that are not in the original Greek.

Again your translation is not pertinent to the quote.

The word "aionios" occurs in the N.T. sixty nine times of that it is translated as world only 3 times.
Do those three times determine the meaning or the 66?

The word aionion (eonian) does not mean "world". The word for "world" in the ancient Koine Greek is the word KOSMOS.

According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary eonian is a variant spelling of aeonian. Another variant is aeonic. They all mean, according to Webster's definition, "lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time". Webster's adds "Origin and Etymology of aeonian...from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic". Definition of EONIAN

Another dictionary says re eonian "Of, relating to, or constituting an eon" & "eonian - of or relating to a geological eon (longer than an era) aeonian. 2. eonian - continuing forever or indefinitely..." eonian

"lasting for an indefinitely long period of time"

Definition of eonian
eonian | Definition of eonian by Webster's Online Dictionary

"Of, relating to, or constituting an eon"

http://www.memidex.com/eonian+pertaining-adjective

"Of or pertaining to an eon"

What does EONIAN mean?

Could most modern translations be in error?
 
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Saint Steven

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THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY

The Bible, which is full of the missionary spirit, does not teach that there are several ways of salvation, one way by faith, another by works, another by ignorance, and another by innocence. Neither does it teach the God-dishonoring doctrine of fatalism. While it shows every other door of hope closed against the race, it throws wide open the one, only door, and proclaims that whosoever will may enter into life; and it shows that all who do not now see or appreciate the blessed privilege of entering shall in due time be brought to a full knowledge and appreciation. The ONLY WAY, by which any and all of the condemned race may come to God, is not by meritorious works, neither by ignorance, nor by innocence, but by a living faith in the precious blood of Christ, which takes away the sin of the world (I Pet. 1:19; Jn. 1:29). This is the Gospel, the good tidings of great joy, "which shall be unto all people."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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FineLinen

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1. True
2. False John 8:44, John 1:12
3. True
4. Maybe true, depending on what point you are trying to make.
5. False
6. True But that is not everything! John 6: 37, 39
7. False
8. True, but all prays are not answered yes!

Noli: You are in dire need of a new vision of the God of Glory.

In response to your sorry answer to question #8 consider this....

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men.”

Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if he knew they would not all be saved?
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:...
Wrong! Just saying nuh-uh my guy has a better translation i.e. quoting a different interpretation/version is NOT proof of anything except the opinions of the single author.
The EOB is an Orthodox translation of the Bible. Unlike other versions, the EOB provides over 200 pages of introductory material and appendices, including articles by the late Protopresbyter George Florovsky and Miltiades Konstantinou of the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. [Greek] The main purpose of the EOB is to provide an accurate and easy-to-read English text of the Bible that is suitable for use by Orthodox Christian communities and individuals, while providing an outstanding text for scholars....
The New Testament (completed and available) is based on the official ecclesiastical text published in 1904 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (again documenting all significant variants to the Critical Text, Majority Text and Textus Receptus). It also provides extensive footnotes and appendices dealing with significant verses such as Matthew 16:18; John 1:1,18; John 15:26. The Patriarchal Text was selected on Mount Athos from among a large number of reliable ecclesiastical manuscripts and appears to be identical or similar to Minuscule 1495 (KR subgroup).
As I have said "aionios" is translated "eternal" 63 times and "world" 3 times in the NT. The "eternal" translations cannot be proved to be anything but eternal.
So what is the logical meaning of "aionios?"
Here is a "proof" argument rather than "I have a better interpretation" argument.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 29 times. He never used it to refer to anything mundane which is definitely not eternal.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In these 2 verses Jesus, perhaps unintentionally, defines "aionios" as "eternal" by saying "eternal life"is a life that does not perish.
I can provide 22 more verses with similar proofs. Can your guys do that, proving that "aionios" means a finite age?


 
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ClementofA

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Wrong! Just saying nuh-uh my guy has a better translation i.e. quoting a different interpretation/version is NOT proof of anything except the opinions of the single author.

Just saying that & ignoring what i said does not disprove what i said.

Evidently you are missing the point, as i was - not - claiming "proof of anything", but rather posted alternate reasonable explanations to Mt.25:46 being a "proof text" vs universalism:

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

The EOB is an Orthodox translation of the Bible. Unlike other versions, the EOB provides over 200 pages of introductory material and appendices, including articles by the late Protopresbyter George Florovsky and Miltiades Konstantinou of the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. [Greek] The main purpose of the EOB is to provide an accurate and easy-to-read English text of the Bible that is suitable for use by Orthodox Christian communities and individuals, while providing an outstanding text for scholars....
The New Testament (completed and available) is based on the official ecclesiastical text published in 1904 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (again documenting all significant variants to the Critical Text, Majority Text and Textus Receptus). It also provides extensive footnotes and appendices dealing with significant verses such as Matthew 16:18; John 1:1,18; John 15:26. The Patriarchal Text was selected on Mount Athos from among a large number of reliable ecclesiastical manuscripts and appears to be identical or similar to Minuscule 1495 (KR subgroup).

That doesn't even address, let alone refute what i posted above.

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley



As I have said "aionios" is translated "eternal" 63 times and "world" 3 times in the NT. The "eternal" translations cannot be proved to be anything but eternal.

Perhaps you should pay attention to your own remark above: "Wrong! Just saying nuh-uh my guy has a better translation i.e. quoting a different interpretation/version is NOT proof of anything except the opinions of the single author."
Evidently you don't follow your own advice. Ever hear the saying: "Do as i say, not as i do".

Secondly, the New Testament wasn't written in English. And there are hundreds of versions in English, most of which do not do what you said. They disagree much with each other. And you didn't even identify the translation you are referring to.

So what is the logical meaning of "aionios?"
Here is a "proof" argument rather than "I have a better interpretation" argument.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 29 times. He never used it to refer to anything mundane which is definitely not eternal.
John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In these 2 verses Jesus, perhaps unintentionally, defines "aionios" as "eternal" by saying "eternal life"is a life that does not perish.



That is no proof and has been shown to be a failure as a proof at the following post which you have never addressed, though it has been repeatedly posted to you:

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


I can provide 22 more verses with similar proofs. Can your guys do that, proving that "aionios" means a finite age?

All your weak so-called proofs have been addresed before & shown to be wanting (e.g. see url above). And as for your question, there are examples (unlike yours) - absolutely - proving aion, aionion, olam and ad to be of a finite duration:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
Evidently you are missing the point, as i was - not - claiming "proof of anything", but rather posted alternate reasonable explanations to Mt.25:46 being a "proof text" vs universalism:
A "reasonable [biased UR] explanation" is only convincing to UR-ites with their assumptions/presuppositions.
Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.
An irrelevant generalization without scholarly support. And some UR "scholar" giving his/her unsupported opinion is no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.
"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."
What part of my post was an appeal to authority? Your repeated reference to "two reasonable explanations" is a classic example of this fallacy. You quote to unnamed writers as authoritative. What if anything qualifies the writers to make definitive translations of Greek?

Secondly, the New Testament wasn't written in English. And there are hundreds of versions in English, most of which do not do what you said. They disagree much with each other. And you didn't even identify the translation you are referring to.
The translation I was quoting EOB. The rest is irrelevant. I don't rely on versions.
And as for your question, there are examples (unlike yours) - absolutely - proving aion, aionion, olam and ad to be of a finite duration:
Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek
:
Nonsense! Prove it. I don't mean "aionios" referring to something which is not "eternal." I mean "aionios" with an accompanying description that "aionios" is less than "eternal." I can't find one.
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
Once again I am not aware of anyone with such infinite knowledge they can determine which word(s) Jesus should or should not have used in any given situation. That is nothing but unsupported biased opinion.
 
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nolidad

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Noli: You are in dire need of a new vision of the God of Glory.

In response to your sorry answer to question #8 consider this....

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men.”

Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if he knew they would not all be saved?

Well God commanded it so I do it! If they are all to be saved anyway- why would He even bother having us prayi in teh first place? Those prayers are just as futile as they are gonna get saved one way or another!

And my vision of the glory of God is just fine thank you! I bind my visions to what the revealed Word of God says! Protects all the saints from doctrine of demons and false light from the angel of light!
 
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nolidad

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Here is a free resource which you might be interested in. The Eastern Greek Orthodox NT.
Them other folks try to argue against it but they don't have a leg to stand on.
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg.180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

= = = = = = =
Also in the EOB Paul uses “αιονιον/aionon,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionon" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L, free, at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.




If only they would realize that their premises and hypotheses of UR stand on such sdhaky and false linguistic scholarship!

From Fine Linen who said aionions can also mean quality of life
to C of A who thinks that aionios in the same sentence can mean a short time in one part and eternity in the second part of the same sentence!

They also do not like to research how Greek words developed (like English words) i.e Kolasis meaning corrective punishment! Even when I showed them they just can't accept it!
 
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nolidad

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Dear Saint Paul: Please be advised our own resident Noli says the Will of all wills is "horse pucky". Perhaps you should revise your words lol?

"Who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.." YLT

Twisting my words in front of me is really foolish on your part. That is not what I said and you will be held accountable for false witness!

That passage is best translated as desire based on teh verb and the rest of all the passages about who does and does not get saved!

Seems to me you think that the super majority of people cannot be drawn to God by His unfathomable love for them. So you think He is going to put them on a kebob stick and let them fry until they have had enough .

I guess when you can read my words correctly you can graduate to reading the Bible correctly as well! Just a thought!
 
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ClementofA

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A "reasonable (biased UR) explanation" is only convincing to UR-ites with their assumptions/presuppositions.

That's certainly false, considering that many - or perhaps the very great vast majority - of the Christian advocates of universalism or hopeful universalism today once believed as you did or as the endless annihating folks do.

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

An irrelevant generalization without scholarly support.

How is it irrelevant?

Scholarly support for how adjectives function? Is that remark to be taken seriously?

Or just another - desperate - say anything, make up your own pet theories not supported by anyone in the past 5000 years - to oppose universalism?

What part of my post was an appeal to authority?

Seriously? Recently you've been repeatedly touting EOB as your pope of all English Bible versions, (like KJV only is perfect Word of God guys) as if it's every statement is infallibly ex cathedra. Anything that differs from it is laconically dismissed without even considering its merit or addressing its points.

Your repeated reference to "two reasonable explanations" is a classic example of this fallacy.

That's an appeal to reason, not authority, & you've not addressed it with a reason based response. Only papal type authoritarianism.

You quote to unnamed writers as authoritative. What if anything qualifies the writers to make definitive translations of Greek?


Such as?

The translation I was quoting EOB. The rest is irrelevant. I don't rely on versions.

Huh? The EOB is a version, an English version. Not Koine Greek.

And where does EOB translate aionion as "world" 3 times in the NT?

Why did you omit at least two translations of aionion in the EOB, namely:

Titus 1:2 "before the age begun"
Philemon 15 "forever"

And if the EOB is so great, why does it consistently render doubled uses of aion in phrases as "ages of ages" instead of the misleading self contradictory "forever and ever" nonsense you've always supported? Are you now converted to agreeeing with EOB on this? Or do you remain faithful to your previous remarks & consider the EOB translations of aion to be wrong?


Nonsense! Prove it. I don't mean "aionios" referring to something which is not "eternal." I mean "aionios" with an accompanying description that "aionios" is less than "eternal." I can't find one.



Like anything on these lists you've probably never even read:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Or something like this, where i - proved - what you were requesting:

Irrelevant. If you want to prove that then go through the OT and show verses where "olam" is defined by other words or phrases as I did.

A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. .

To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.

Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.

Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ

"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).


Once again I am not aware of anyone with such infinite knowledge they can determine which word(s) Jesus should or should not have used in any given situation. That is nothing but unsupported biased opinion.

No, usage determines meaning. Aionios is often proven to be finite by many examples. Seldom, if ever, in Koine Greek does it indicate endlessness. Therefore it is a poor choice of a word if Jesus intended to use it to express endless punishment. He had multiple other clear & unambiguous words & expressions He could have used if it was His intention to warn about a future endless punishment:

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Furthermore, we see here how your own quotes support that:

● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?[/QUOTE]
 
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nolidad

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"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again."

Augustine was rather ignorant of Greek.

For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

"None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

He quotes Mt.12:31:

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

"Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

(pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

The NT translation of Eastern Orthodox scholar Bentley Hart does not use the words "eternal" or "everlasting" at Mt.25:46, but instead reads "chastening of that Age" & "life of that Age". (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

Many other versions do likewise.

Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

Regarding the Greek word for "punishment"(kolasis) in Matthew 25:46:

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

Was "eternal"(eonian) fire that burned Sodom endless, or finite:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite? And if aionion is finite in Mt.25:41, shouldn't it also be finite in Mt.25:46 when again referring to punishment?

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because if it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Once saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

[journalofanalytictheology.com/ja ... 30418a/271](Journal of Analytic Theology)

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf[/url

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." [earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html](Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments)

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.

[tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd21.html](Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism)

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"

[tentmaker.org/forum/word-studie ... n-forever/](https://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/another-aionios-thread-these-things-go-on-forever/)

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

[tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html](Chapter Nine)

"Walvoord appeals to Matthew 25:46 (“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian,” CV), declaring that if the state of the blessed is eternal, as expressed by this word, there is no logical reason for giving limited duration to punishment."

"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again. From the fact that the life of the just nations and the chastening of the unjust nations are herein described by the same adjective, descriptive of duration, it does not follow that the latter group of nations, therefore, will be subjected to endless punishment. The argument assumes what is at issue by presuming that the life of the just, here, is termed an endless life. Simply because, on certain grounds, the life of those persons comprising the just nations will prove to be endless, it does not follow that the blessing of life afforded here to any such nations is therefore that of endless duration. It is as unreasonable to assume that eonian life doubtlessly signifies endless life as it would be to claim that youthful life actually signifies aged life, simply because our presuppositions and predilections may dictate such a conclusion."

"...It is simply contrary to historical fact to suggest that the essence of these time expressions is that of endless duration. As Thomas De Quincey, the nineteenth century essayist and literary critic states: “All this speculation, first and last, is pure nonsense. Aiõnios does not mean ‘eternal,’ neither does it mean of limited duration . . . . What is an aiõn? The duration or cycle of existence which belongs to any object, not individually of itself, but universally, in right of its genius * . . . . The exact amount of the duration expressed by an aiõn depends altogether upon the particular subject which yields the aiõn.” "

"...Likewise, the Presbyterian Bible scholar, M. R. Vincent, in his extensive note on aiõn/aiõnios states: “Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.” "

"...not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version).

"In this response to your “deeply troubled” encounter with the Concordant Version, I have principally sought not to prove my position, but to open a door to its consideration; a door of further inquiry, with a view toward your attaining an awareness of the grace of God in truth, even as of the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord (Eph.3:11). May our God and Father be pleased to use this writing unto such an end."


All this is blah,blah,blah blah!

Once again if the sum of those verses you posted were the sum total of the verses that described duration in the lake of fire, that would end it! But it isn't so you have to rely on real sketchy scholarship. If you are to be believed, the Greek speaking word (or greater than 99% of it) is all wrong in the understanding of the words they use based on non Greek speakers and their rambling philosophical opines! Yes Kolasis, aionios, aidios, and timora as well as paideia are still in use today and mean the same as they did in koine greek or common greek!

YOu have gone so far as to accuse the super majority of translators (all credentialed) with either gorss incompentence, ignorance, or things far darker in the most accepted translations.

YOu cannot accept that the hard transliteral translations only carry the harshest of literalism without any thought to how the words are used in everydsay understanding by the authors!

Because the Jews had no Word for eternal they used olam or hidden. It also was used of undefined time! Which one is which? Context and understanding of the subjects! That is why God is eternal (owlam) while a kings reign when he starts is owlam(an undefined time)

But all the phony scholarship you have presented on Mtt. 25:46 to try to defend that aionios for punishment is limted while aionios for life is ternal fails on every level of grammar! And no matter what- we can only understand things by Grammar!
 
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FineLinen

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Well God commanded it so I do it! If they are all to be saved anyway- why would He even bother having us prayi in teh first place? Those prayers are just as futile as they are gonna get saved one way or another!

Perhaps you can disclose why you bother to pray something the Father of all fathers has zero intention of doing? Why Noli, why?

Take 2 (two)

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men.”

Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if He knew they would not all be saved?
 
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FineLinen

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Twisting my words in front of me is really foolish on your part. That is not what I said and you will be held accountable for false witness!
Perhaps you would like to revise your 8 answers to the 8 questions, Noli?

Those 8 answers are enshrined in black & white before us.
 
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FineLinen

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1. True
2. False John 8:44, John 1:12
3. True
4. Maybe true, depending on what point you are trying to make.
5. False
6. True But that is not everything! John 6: 37, 39
7. False
8. True, but all prays are not answered yes!

Welcome back!
 
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ClementofA

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All this is blah,blah,blah blah!

Once again if the sum of those verses you posted were the sum total of the verses that described duration in the lake of fire, that would end it!

So evidently you think other verses - trump - those verses. While i don't.

But it isn't so you have to rely on real sketchy scholarship. If you are to be believed, the Greek speaking word (or greater than 99% of it) is all wrong in the understanding of the words they use based on non Greek speakers and their rambling philosophical opines! Yes Kolasis, aionios, aidios, and timora as well as paideia are still in use today and mean the same as they did in koine greek or common greek!

I'm all ears if you have some evidence to support these unsupported opinions.

YOu have gone so far as to accuse the super majority of translators (all credentialed) with either gorss incompentence, ignorance, or things far darker in the most accepted translations.

What are their biases? Are they endless punishment biased? Then why should it surprise you when they create cloned copies of other versions parroting each other? Poly wanna a cracker?

parrot-polly-want-cracker.jpg



YOu cannot accept that the hard transliteral translations only carry the harshest of literalism without any thought to how the words are used in everydsay understanding by the authors!

It's enlightening to know what i think! I'll have to refer to you more often! Not only for my thoughts but insights into the minds of those producing all the "hard transliteral translations"!

Because the Jews had no Word for eternal they used olam or hidden.

If nothing else, they had "no end" (Psa.102:27). Though there are probably other Hebrew words or expressions to state endlessness, just as the Greek has quite a few:


If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

It also was used of undefined time! Which one is which? Context and understanding of the subjects! That is why God is eternal (owlam) while a kings reign when he starts is owlam(an undefined time)

But all the phony scholarship you have presented on Mtt. 25:46 to try to defend that aionios for punishment is limted while aionios for life is ternal fails on every level of grammar! And no matter what- we can only understand things by Grammar!

If you think you have evidence to support your views, then i invite you to try to refute the evidence i've posted here:

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
 
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Saint Steven

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Suppose we now look at these things just as God tells us of them, and leave the clearing of His character to Himself. Let us inquire, what has become of this one hundred and sixty billions of people who have lived upon this planet? Whatever may be their present condition, it cannot be their full reward; for Peter says, "The Lord knows how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" (II Pet. 2:9); and He will do so. But the thought that so many of our fellow creatures should at any time be lost from lack of having had the knowledge which is necessary to salvation would be sad indeed to all who have a spark of love or compassion. Then, too, there are numerous Scriptures which it seems impossible to harmonize with all this. Let us see: In the light of the past and the present as the only opportunities, laying aside all hope through a restoration in the coming age and ages, how shall we understand the statements, "God is love," and "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish" (I Din. 4:8; Din. 3:16)? Would it not seem that if God truly loved the world so much He might have made provision, not only that believers might be saved, but that ALL MIGHT HEAR IN ORDER TO BELIEVE?

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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nolidad

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Perhaps you can disclose why you bother to pray something the Father of all fathers has zero intention of doing? Why Noli, why?

Take 2 (two)

“I exhort, therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men.”

Would God inspire the hearts of his saints to pray for the salvation of all mankind, if He knew they would not all be saved?

simply? Because He commands it! And also I do not know who will and who will not be saved!
 
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nolidad

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Perhaps you would like to revise your 8 answers to the 8 questions, Noli?

Those 8 answers are enshrined in black & white before us.

I am fine with them.
 
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nolidad

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So evidently you think other verses - trump - those verses. While i don't.



I'm all ears if you have some evidence to support these unsupported opinions.



What are their biases? Are they endless punishment biased? Then why should it surprise you when they create cloned copies of other versions parroting each other? Poly wanna a cracker?

parrot-polly-want-cracker.jpg





It's enlightening to know what i think! I'll have to refer to you more often! Not only for my thoughts but insights into the minds of those producing all the "hard transliteral translations"!



If nothing else, they had "no end" (Psa.102:27). Though there are probably other Hebrew words or expressions to state endlessness, just as the Greek has quite a few:


If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:



If you think you have evidence to support your views, then i invite you to try to refute the evidence i've posted here:

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

I have addressed these all before. I guess you just ignored them. Well you can look them up . Why shpould I write them for about the fifth time?
 
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