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Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by TRUTH, Mar 3, 2002.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Which book? 2John? Do you believe that "anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ", is referring to unsaved people?"

    I think you need to read some context.....Look at 1 john verse 9-10..christians sin :) now read the verses you point out....do they conflict? No they don't why? Because its once saved always saved. Do you think an author forgets what he writes just a page before?
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

  3. heapshake

    heapshake The Great Pumpkin

    I don't see how 1 John 1:9-10 show OSAS. Doesn't it say you have to confess your sins for them to be forgiven?
  4. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

    This is an interesting debate. I will like to add my view that I believe that once you are saved, you are always saved. But my question now, is, will a christian that later on choose to deny christ be saved?

    welcome to this forum. Fellow citizen of Singapore.
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    The premise behind "OSNAS", is that salvation is abiding in Christ. In 1Jn1 this premise is very much supported. "Our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ". Chapter 3 mirrors Romans 8, "no one who abides in Him sins, indeed he cannot sin because he is born of God". In Rom 8 is the concept of "walking in the Spirit" (abiding in Christ), and "walking in the flesh" (not-abiding in Christ). Because we do not practice "walking in the flesh", but only occasionally err and then sin, we do not lose salvation. Those who PRACTICE (continually) "walking in the flesh" are no longer saved.

    2Jn1:7-9 warns of deceivers, that you "not go too far and not abide in the teachings of Christ". Very much supports the premise of "salvation-is-abiding-in-Christ". Which is what Jude said, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God".

    1Timothy4:1 perfectly mirrors 2Jn1:7-9, "the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrinees of demons..."

    Which is really what Hebrews is also saying, 3:12-14 "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called 'today', that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END".

    These are more verses that absolutely preclude the belief of "OSAS". "IF we hold FIRM UNTIL THE END"? That allows OSAS? Some say that's a "rhetorical-non-sequitur", He's only hypothesizing WHAT IF (because all of them KNOW you can never become unsaved) ---but I prefer to read the words as they are written. Without weaving in additional theology...

    And, as written, it is far easier to make a Scriptural case for OSNAS, than for OSAS...
  6. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    A Christian cannot lose his salvation

    First and foremost, we are talking about true-blue, born-again Christians. This statement, however, leads to a problem: How do we know if someone is truly born of God?

    In some cases, it is really hard to tell and only God would know. We must also not expect overnight changes in the person and underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit. We need only ask ourselves how long we took to "produce fruit" to remember our own stubborness and our Lord's patience.

    That said, let's deal first with easy scriptures that clearly support eternal security.

    It is comforting to note that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all "play a part" in keeping us saved. We can call this triple protection!

    The Father...

    * John 10:29 -- My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

    The Son...

    * John 10:28 -- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

    The Holy Spirit...

    * 2 Corinthians 1:22 -- set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
    * Ephesians 1:13 -- And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
    * Ephesians 4:30 -- And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    A Christian might argue that he can "snatch" himself out of the Father's hand by wilfully renouncing Christ. But he forgets that "no one" in John 10:28,29 includes him! (See "Renouncing Christ".)

    Furthermore, Jesus said : "I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish." Common spiritual sense tells us that "eternal life" is not "eternal" if it can be cut off at some point. Also, "never" simply means never. It can't get any simpler than that!

    Speaking of eternal life, it is given to us by God the moment we are born again. Eternal life does not begin after we die physically. As long as we have Christ in us, we have eternal life -- we are not waiting to get it someday.

    * 1 John 5:12 -- He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

    Can sinning cause us to lose it?

    The answer lies in this verse:

    * Romans 5:19 -- For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    Man is a sinner because of what Adam had done, not because he sins -- he sins because he has inherited Adam's sinful nature. Likewise, a Christian is righteous because of what Jesus Christ had done at the cross, not because he does good -- he does good because Christ is in him.

    When we were sinners, our good deeds could not undo what Adam had done and make us righteous. Similarly, now that we are righteous, our bad deeds or sins cannot undo what Christ had done and make us unrighteous!

    If we believe that the former is impossible but the latter, possible, then we are saying:

    * Adam's work was superior to Christ's, when the opposite is true (Romans 5:15).
    * Our sinning is more powerful than the perfect work and blood of Christ.
    * The blood of bulls and goats in the Old Testament is more "potent" than the blood of Christ, since the former could atone for the sins of Israel for at least one year, but that the latter loses its effect the moment we sin.

    Consider also that because of what Jesus Christ had accomplished on the cross, God is not even counting men's sins against them, let alone Christians!

    * 2 Corinthians 5:19 -- that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
    * Hebrews 10:17 -- Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."


    Paul himself talks about eternal security in Romans.

    * Romans 8:29,30 -- For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    The very idea of predestination presupposes that God knows beforehand. He is, afterall, omniscient. Those who believe that a born again Christian can lose his salvation should ask themselves if God could, in His perfect foreknowledge, predestinate persons "to be conformed to the image of his Son", knowing that they would eventually renounce Christ and lose their salvation (assuming that were possible). The very purpose of predestination and GodÕs perfect foreknowledge contradict that!

    Note also the unbroken chain of events: predestinate -- called -- justified -- glorified. God will complete the process for every Christian, not just some! (See "He's faithful, not us".)

    In a sense, Christians are already glorified in Christ Jesus, being seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). But there is more to come!

    At the rapture, they will receive new imperishable bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-54). There is also further glorification when the church is presented as the spotless bride to the Father by her bridegroom, Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27).

    So, how can "them he also glorified" be completely true if believers can lose their salvation? And how can a "justified" Christian be unjustified and cast into hell?

    Renouncing Christ

    Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.

    But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

    This being the case, let's suppose that the Christian does renounce Christ and lose his salvation. This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him have succeeded in seprating him from the love of God. This, however, is in direct contradiction to Romans 8:38,39!

    * Romans 8:38,39 -- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    He is faithful, not us

    Many Christians think that after they are saved, they need to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)!

    Also, they are foolish to think that they have the power to "maintain" their salvation. It is God who "keeps" them saved! It is God who is always faithful, not them!

    * Romans 14:4 -- Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    * 1 Corinthians 1:8 -- He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
    * 1 Corinthians 10:13 -- No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
    * 2 Corinthians 1:21 -- Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.
    * 2 Thessalonians 3:3 -- But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
    * 2 Timothy 4:18 -- The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    * Hebrews 2:18 -- Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
    * Jude 1:24 -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--

    Difficult passages explained I

    Matthew 7:21 -- "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    A rule of thumb in Bible study is to interpret difficult verses in the light of simple clear cut ones. We should not be building doctrines out of one or two difficult verses.

    That said, many have taken the above verse to mean that Christians can lose their salvation if they do not do what God tells them to do. To them, the "will of my Father" means just about everything God tells them to do. But if that is the case, who can enter heaven? Who can do everything that God tells him to do? What about doing 80 per cent of it? Is that enough for a perfect God? It all boils down to salvation by works!

    Obviously, the "will of my Father" here is not to be interpreted generally as "anything and everything that God tells us to do". So, what is it, specifically?

    Note that the context in this verse is salvation -- "enter the kingdom of heaven". So, the Father's "will" should relate, specifically, to salvation, and it does!

    * John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    * John 6:40 -- For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    God's will in Matthew 7:21 is simply salvation for man. In fact, He is not willing that any should perish.

    * Matthew 18:14 -- In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
    * 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    So, how do we fulfil the will of God in Matthew 7:21? What should we do? Actually, there's nothing we can do except to believe, since everything that needs to be done for man to be saved has already been done perfectly by Jesus. We cannot add to it. Our part is simply to believe!

    * John 6:29Ê-- Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    So, in Matthew 7:21, Jesus is saying that only those who believe in Him will enter the kingdom of heaven!
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    Difficult passages explained II

    Matthew 7:22,23 -- Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    "On that day" refers to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. When He returns to earth in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30) to reign as King, the whole world will know that He is the Christ. At that time, many non-believers will call Him "Lord", out of fear or because it will be obvious to them that He is the Christ. But it will be too late then, because the time is up, the Master has returned! They should have believed earlier. They can't be saved then by calling Him "Lord", since faith will not be required as they will be able to see with their own eyes that Jesus is the Son of God!

    Therefore, Jesus will tell these people that He never knew them and to depart. Afterall, they never had a personal relationship with Him, and calling Him "Lord" then will just be a vain attempt to start one!

    But how can we be sure that these people in Matthew 7:22,23 are not Christians who have "lost their salvation"?

    The key lies in the word "never", when Jesus says "I never knew you". Jesus would be lying if He used the word "never" because He would have known them at least once -- perhaps the first 10 years of their Christian life before they "renounced" Him and "lost their salvation", assuming that were possible.

    So, who are these people who prophesied, drived out demons and performed miracles?

    It must be noted that the "evildoers" themselves are making these claims, not Jesus. It sure sounds like they are saying those things in a desperate attempt to gain the Lord's recognition and get saved!

    It could be Syed Baba, some Taoist spiritualist or a cult leader saying those things "on that day", perhaps with a misguided belief that they were doing it all in the name of God. Even today, such non-believers do have power (demonic in nature) to "heal" the sick, "tell" the future or have a demon speak through them, and "drive away" another demon if the demon that they serve holds a higher authority in Satan's kingdom.

    Difficult passages explained III

    Hebrews 6:4-6 -- It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers and non-believers, not so much to the Gentile church, although Gentile Christians can benefit greatly by reading the book. Contrast this book to Paul's epistles to the churches and the difference is quite clear.

    The Jews were deeply entrenched in the laws, customs and sacrifices of Judaism. That is why Hebrews focuses on the fact that Jesus is the final sacrifice and the High Priest of high priests, and that He supercedes Moses, Abraham and all the other heroes of faith mentioned in the Old Testament (Hebrews 12:2).

    Previously, mainly out of spiritual blindness, the Jews had failed to recognise Jesus as the Messiah, rejected His message of salvation by grace and crucified Him.

    Now, after knowing better -- having "been enlightened", having had the gospel explained to them via the Apostles, having seen miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit in Acts -- if they continue to reject Christ, they are in a sense putting Jesus back on the cross -- "crucifying the Son of God all over again".

    Is it possible that persons "who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" can be non-believers?

    Yes, Judas Iscariot was one such person. He had been with Jesus for about three years, sat under His teaching and even seen the power Jesus demonstrated through the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas was not a believer. He never addressed Jesus as "Lord". You cannot find it in the Bible. Judas had only addressed Jesus as "Master" (Matthew 26:25).

    Similarly, today, there are many people who have "tasted" Jesus and the gospel; seen miracles performed right in front of them or even on them, and yet turned away from God.

    Note also that the verse only says "enlightened", "tasted" and "shared". These are not words the Bible associates with being saved. We know that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We don't get saved by being "enlightened", by "tasting" or by "sharing"! All that is good but we must still believe in our hearts and confess Jesus as our Lord and righteousness (Romans 10:9).
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Those who PRACTICE (continually) "walking in the flesh" are no longer saved. "

    Nooo..they were never christians in the first place..to quote Paul, "If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker."
  9. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

    OBVIOUSLY no one read the very beginning of this post !!!!!!! "SAVED" does not mean eternatl salvation - it means deliver or protect! God "SAVED" Israel and then later destroyed them - HELLO OSAS read it again - it's in English!
  10. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    John 3:15
    That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life .

    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    1 John 2:25
    And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life .

    Romans 10:13
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved .

    1 John 5:20
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life .

    Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .

    1 John 5:11
    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life , and this life is in his Son.

    Ephesians 2:5
    Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;)

    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Acts 16
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.

    Once in a while is does mean protected or delevered:
    1 Timothy 2:15
    Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

    Does that make sense to you Truth?
  11. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

    Not once in awhile - look at the word it was translated from - it always means protected - from the wrath to come. John 3:13 No man has ascended to heaven = there is no one in heaven yet - they are asleep in the dust of the earth awaiting the resurrection from the dead - at that time their eternal salvation will be decided. Those of us that are living in the end time when the great tribulations comes - we will hope to be saved from the wrath [Rom 5:9, Rev 12] But anyone can blow it!

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
  12. Tyler

    Tyler Member

    Thank you for your wonderful post! A very inspiring message!

    God Bless You
  13. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    Look where ? Why? Whats wrong with just looking at what Gods words say?

    That sounds dishonest, how can someone in prison or in the Mexico mountains do THAT? Sounds like you think they need someone other that the Holy Spirit to lead them to the Truth?

    Every heresy and religious lie is this age is the truth, MISPLACED.
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