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Saved???

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by TRUTH, Mar 3, 2002.

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  1. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

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    Strong’s Concordance: SAVED : 4982. sozo, sode'-zo; from a prim. sos (contr. for obsol. saos, “safe”); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig.):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

    Deliver or Protect from what? Nothing in the definition says anything about eternity or immortality or ascending to heaven and we don’t want to assume things that it plainly does not say. Remember John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” If you look at some other scriptures, it can help define what we will be “saved from”?

    Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. -- “Saved from wrath” This is translated from the same Greek word 4982 “sozo” as in Mark 16:16. Also notice:

    2 Pet 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; -- The same Greek word to describe Noah being protected (saved) from the flood. The same word cannot mean saved eternally in one verse and not in the next verse.

    Jude 1:5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having SAVED the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe ." --This is again is the same Greek word and it clearly does not apply to eternal salvation if God later destroyed them, they were only “delivered” from Egypt. No human can count on his eternal salvation until he stands before the Throne of Christ. No Christian is eternally saved right now. Read Mark 16:16 again, it says “will be saved” future tense. You can still blow it. There is a second death. Let’s look into Revelation where God “delivers” those that are “saved”

    Rev 7:4 Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees till we have SEALED the servants of our God on their foreheads.
    Rev 9:4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the SEAL of God on their foreheads. What does “sealed” mean?

    Sealed: 4972. sphragizo, sfrag-id'-zo; from G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or
    preservation (lit. or fig.); by impl. to keep secret, to attest:--(set a, set to) seal up.

    Notice that it is a sign or mark for the purpose of security or preservation from the harm that is coming on the earth, God’s wrath, [Matt 24] that was mentioned above Rom 5:9 . . . we shall be saved from wrath. . . So the people that will be “saved” will have a “seal” (stamp, signet or mark) A sign on a business tells you who is inside, who owns that store, and who those employee’s serve. If it says McDonalds or K-Mart you know exactly what’s inside. So as God looks down on man, how does he distinguish who his true servants are? Does he look at the Catholic church who has put down his Word and made their own tradition? Incidentally there are only 2 words in the NT that have a numeric value of 666 by adding up the values of the Greek letters that make up the word and those two words are “wealth” and “tradition” The Vatican is the wealthiest religious institution on the face of the planet and they honor tradition rather than scripture.

    Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption This Scripture says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    How do you get the Holy Spirit? How do you know if you have it?:

    Acts 5:32 ". . . so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him”

    Acts 2:38 Peter said "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Repentance and baptism are conditions to receiving the Holy Spirit. Repent of what? Sin? 1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law. Can you continue to have and on going affair and think that God will extend his Holy Spirit to you? Can you be a serial murderer? Can you worship other gods? Can you break the 4th commandment every week?

    Exo 31:13 . . .'Surely My Sabbaths [God’s 7 Annual Holy Days are also called Sabbaths as well as the 7th day of the week] you shall keep, for it is a SIGN between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 14 'You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 'Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual [H5956; prop. concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; gen. time out of mind (past or fut.), i.e. (practically) eternity;] covenant.

    So again a sign that identifies you to God as being obedient to his commanded Sabbaths.

    Not all commandment keepers will be saved - PROTECTED:

    REV 22:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman [true church] who gave birth to the male Child.
    14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
    15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
    16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    The burden of proof that 'saved' means eternally immortal is on you...
     
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  2. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

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    So we are no more saved than the nominal Christian who thinks all Christianity is about is attending Church on a Sunday? And there is no grace- we can have our past debts cancelled but no more- we have to prove ourselves and overcome and achieve salvation entirely through our own efforts- if we reach perfection before we die, we will get to heaven?! :help: :cry:
     
  3. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    Great post TRUTH !!

    Folks, this is the very thing I've talked about in other threads.
    Again, you will see in the verses below what kind of "MEAT"
    Paul is talking about. It's the meat of the Word. There are
    just to many in this day and age living on "MILK" from so
    called teachers. "Are you SAVED?" Again, saved from what?

    Hbr 5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of
    eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Hbr 5:10
    Called of God an high priest after the order of
    Melchisedec.

    Hbr 5:11
    Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be
    uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    Hbr 5:12
    For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye
    have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles
    of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk ,
    and not of strong meat .

    Hbr 5:13
    For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word
    of righteousness: for he is a babe.


    Hbr 5:14
    But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,
    [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised
    to discern both good and evil.


    Now we can give credit where it is do in this verse:

    Mar 13:17
    But woe to them that are with child, and to them that
    give suck in those days!

    A child from God is a blessing. The child in this verse is refering to
    false doctrine, and the "give suck" refers to the nursing it along.

    It could as well been said this way:

    Woe to those people who are taught false teachings, and to
    those who teach them false teachings.

    I share these things in love, it's time for people to see the truth.

    Patrick
     
  4. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

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    Saved means PROTECTED

    Yes our sins are forgiven -- at baptism AFTER REPENTENCE from sin and the Holy Spirit given to those who OBEY GOD.

    Shall will live any longer in sin that Grace may abound, CERTIANLY NOT!

    Grace is a whole different issue - Do you think it means "unmerited pardon for sin"? it's translated from the Greek word 'charis' in the NT - but 'charis' is also translated:

    Luk 4:22...marveled at the gracious words
    Luk6:32,33,34 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?

    Acts 4:47 praising God and having favor with all the people.
    Acts 24:27...and Felix, wanting to do the Jews a favor , left Paul bound.
    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked
    1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God,
    2 Cor 1:15...I intended to come to you before, that you might have a second benefit ;

    these all come from the same Greek word "charis"

    'Saved' and 'Grace' are not that supperficial that you can run wild and 'every man do what is right in his own eyes' it's not that easy - Why does the bible say repeatedly "FEAR GOD" and keep his commandments for this is the whole duty of man Ecc 12:13 the Fear of the Lord is the beginnign of wisdom - satan has made a serious matter a funlovin' party with no worries.

    Question what you have been told -- search the scriptures daily to see that these things are so!

    Have you poven from the scriptures that you can believe in Jesus and zing to heaven at death????

    Even the demons believe and tremble!
     
  5. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    Yes, I would agree with your post's, but would like to add
    one thing. I believe I have talked about this in another
    thread.

    We can only "except" Yeshua/Jesus' sacrifice one time. We
    don't go around after that "re-crucifying" Him all over again
    and again.

    This is where repentence comes in. We must "repent" of
    our sin's, meaning, have a change of heart and attitude.

    This is where "you will know them by they're fruits" comes
    in.

    Patrick
     
  6. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    Gal 3:14 - That the blessing of Abraham - The blessing promised to him. Might come on the gentiles - Also. That we - Who believe, whether Jews or gentiles. Might receive the promise of the Spirit - Which includes all the other promises. Through faith - Not by works ; for faith looks wholly to the promise.

    Here is a good verse I think that helps explain what's being talked about on this topic. Works as it says here doesn't get us to heaven but faith does. When you have faith and bring God into your life then you'll want to stay away from sin. That is meaning you start to bear good fruits. To think though you'll achieve perfection is false. No person that says oh I believe but goes on sinning with out a 2nd thought has brought God into their heart. Even after you have been reborn I have yet to see reach perfection, only improvment. Only Jesus acheived perfection on earth. Hope this straightens some things out.
     
  7. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

    64
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  8. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

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    Remember that faith and works are not separate from each other. "I'm saved by works" "I'm saved by faith" They go together! Faith without works is dead and we will be judged according to our works but with out the faith - your works stink! the effort is all important also. Where your heart is - are you trying your hardest or trying to get away with whatever you can?
     
  9. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    Truth - That's true, that's why I said if you accept God into your life your not going to sin like there is no problem with it. You still won't be sinless though. I have yet to see any person achieve that since Jesus.
     
  10. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

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    But this is where we get into the Sabbath debate again and again - few keep it - or the God's Holy Days for that matter. Lev 23 as a "perpetual covenant"
     
  11. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    Well I was hoping to stay on the topic of Salavtion here and get away from the Sabbath debate but I guess not! ;)
    All I have say about the Sabbath is this:

    Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

    Jesus was upset that the Pharisees has invented so many rules for the Sabbath. Basicly they added to God's word. Anyways end of the Sabbath topic for me now. :)
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Uhmmmm-hmmm. And what color are your eyes??? ;)

    Salvation is always equated to "the eternal kingdom of God", or "the kindgom of Heaven", or just "heaven". Hell is "fire", or "condemnation", or "WRATH". Romans 2:5-13 is very clear on this.
    Are you sure? THen what do you make of 1Jn3:6&9--- "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. No one born of God sins, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

    ;)
     
  13. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    Ben, let me make thoses verses more clear on what they mean.

    You may think by reading these verses if you sin you won't get into heaven. God knows there are temptations and struggle no matter how close to him you are. What John is try to say is that we should never stop working on conforming to God's will. Now if a person doesn't change and work on removing himself from sin that is what would show signs that the person has not been born of God or (born again).
    I ask this question of anyone who believes they are going to heaven and that you need to be sinless to get there. Have you sinned AT ALL recently? I'm sure you have. If that was true then you wouldn't be going to heaven. That's why Jesus has to die for our sins so we can be forgiven.
     
  14. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

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    Just a comment- Baptism DOESN'T save you -it doesn't say in Mark 16 v16 whoever does not believe AND IS NOT BAPTISED will be condemned!
    Also these verses were not written by Mark (there are many other endings that were also written by others) and it is the only part of the gospels with inconsistancies- which means that probably the Holy Spirit intended Mark to finish at 16 v8.

    Baptism would kill if you remained under the water for 3 minutes or more- the water can't save you! And if the person wasn't saved then it would send them to hell, if they drowned in the water!
     
  15. Da Berkshire Massive

    Da Berkshire Massive New Member

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  16. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

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    No one has eternally salvation yet - the bible says Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
    - but until that point there are not promises. Notice

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

    "Sin willfully after we recieve the truth" there is an obvious penalty - none of this "excepting Christ and suddenly guaranteed eternal salvation" - only when you recieve your eternal spirit body will you have eternal salvation. we all have plenty of opportunity to blow it or Heb 10 wouldn't say "IF you sin willfully . . .
     
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    How interesting. I am nearing the end of writing a text on OSAS, that completely invalidates the position, Scripturally. "Not one verse that contradicts OSAS"? I suppose that is true---for there are many verses that contradict it! If you're game, how 'bout if I email you a copy of the text? Most people who are "OSAS", after reading it, find they do not disagree with me as much as they thought at first...

    Good post, Truth! I find, "after receiving knowledge of the truth" to be indicative of SOME WHO WERE SAVED. Same as they "ontos-apofuego-TRULY-ESCAPED through the epignosis-TRUE-AND-CORRECT-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST" were saved, but they "became again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome! Far better to have never KNOWN the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than after KNOWING, to have TURNED from the holy commandment handed to them"... (2Pet2)

    Harmonizes with verses like 1Tim4:1, Gal5:4, Heb3:12-14 (notice the "IF" in verse 14!!!!!), on and on and on...

    :)
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    oh hey, I want a copy!!! Bet our conclusions won't be the same, but I'll do my best to keep an open mind.
     
  19. TRUTH

    TRUTH Prove All things! 1 Thes 5:21

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    If you put "deliver or protect" in place of every 'saved' you can't be OSAS! When a verse says "WILL be saved" that is future tense - not already protected but, will be protected.
     
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