saved by grace or by works

[Guojing]

Where in that verse do you get “all” or “everything”? It is not there. The verse says sell what you have and give to the poor. It does not say sell “all” that you own. Nor does it say sell “everything” that you have. No where in the Greek is there even a hint at totality.

I am using the original kjv verse in that post. I didn’t add the word everything to it.

Sell that you have. That to me is clear enough

 

[Doug Brents]

I am using the original kjv verse in that post. I didn’t add the word everything to it.

Sell that you have. That to me is clear enough

And in your interpretation you imply that we are to sell everything, do you not. And then you say that we are not teaching that we are to sell everything, so we are not teaching everything that Jesus taught.

 

[Guojing]

And in your interpretation you imply that we are to sell everything, do you not. And then you say that we are not teaching that we are to sell everything, so we are not teaching everything that Jesus taught.

Sell that you have means sell what you have. You do agree with that

If you command someone "sell what you have", if he still choose to keep something that he has for himself, is he following what you command him?

 

[Doug Brents]

Sell that you have means sell what you have. You do agree with that

If you command someone "sell what you have", if he still choose to keep something that he has for himself, is he following what you command him?

And a wise man will leave an inheritance for his children’s children (Prov 13:22). I cannot do so if I have sold everything. One Scripture passage cannot be interpreted in isolation. You must check your interpretation of a passage against the rest of Scripture to see if it is consistent. If it is not, then it is your understanding that needs adjustment, not the Word that needs to change.

Let me ask you, why were Ananias and Sapphira struck dead? Was it because they didn’t give all the money they received from the sale of their property? No, Scripture says the reason they died is because they lied to God. Peter told Ananias, “While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?” He was not under compulsion to give all, or to sell all, but he said he gave all and for that he died.

 

[Guojing]

And a wise man will leave an inheritance for his children’s children (Prov 13:22). I cannot do so if I have sold everything. One Scripture passage cannot be interpreted in isolation. You must check your interpretation of a passage against the rest of Scripture to see if it is consistent. If it is not, then it is your understanding that needs adjustment, not the Word that needs to change.

Let me ask you, why were Ananias and Sapphira struck dead? Was it because they didn’t give all the money they received from the sale of their property? No, Scripture says the reason they died is because they lied to God. Peter told Ananias, “While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?” He was not under compulsion to give all, or to sell all, but he said he gave all and for that he died.

I have already explained to you, why it makes sense to sell all you have when you know the mark of the beast is coming in the 70th week.

But you don't want to consider that so let's move on.

 

[Doug Brents]

I have already explained to you, why it makes sense to sell all you have when you know the mark of the beast is coming in the 70th week.

But you don't want to consider that so let's move on.

The 70th week is in the past. It occurred during to Roman Empire shortly after Jesus died. We are not still waiting for it (but that is a discussion for another thread). It has absolutely no impact on the discussion at hand.

The command in this verse is NOT about selling everything, but to not be attached to the things you own in this life and use them as tools to build treasures in the next life. But you are free to do with your possessions what you want, just as Peter said Ananias and Sapphira were free to do with their possessions.

Don’t bind others with your burden. If you feel the burden to rid yourself of all Earthly possessions, then do so. But don’t say others are wrong for not selling everything they own.

 

[Guojing]

The 70th week is in the past. It occurred during to Roman Empire shortly after Jesus died. We are not still waiting for it (but that is a discussion for another thread). It has absolutely no impact on the discussion at hand.

It has, but since you refuse to consider its relevance, you will understandably be unable to accept the literal meaning of "sell what you have" and instead seek alternative interpretations.

 

[Guojing]

Don’t bind others with your burden. If you feel the burden to rid yourself of all Earthly possessions, then do so. But don’t say others are wrong for not selling everything they own.

You still don't get what I am trying to establish with you.

All along, I am saying Jesus's instructions in the 4 gospels are only directed to the nation of Israel during that specific time, so they do not apply to us now,

It is the same as what went down with Noah and the instruction to him to build an ark, which you agreed.

I am not saying you "are wrong for not selling everything you own".

I am saying you are wrong for claiming that you are obeying what Jesus said in Luke 12:33, when you are not.

 

[Ligurian]

You still don't get what I am trying to establish with you.

All along, I am saying Jesus's instructions in the 4 gospels are only directed to the nation of Israel during that specific time, so they do not apply to us now,

It is the same as what went down with Noah and the instruction to him to build an ark, which you agreed.

I am not saying you "are wrong for not selling everything you own".

I am saying you are wrong for claiming that you are obeying what Jesus said in Luke 12:33, when you are not.

Well... seems like I needed that clarification about you, too. NOW I understand why you think you can keep both gospels at the same time... because you're not really keeping the first Gospel, are you?

I'm wondering when (according to you), if not NOW, would be a good time to preach this Gospel of the Kingdom to the still-Lost Sheep of Israel? Because it will be too late for that preaching, when the beast stands up. And that window of opportunity is closing fast, IMO-today.

And FYI, what was said to the Disciples only applies specifically to them... Luke of course, wasn't one of the Disciples, so he wasn't even there.

Personally, I believe that 'giving to him that asks things of you' applies to all of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel: from the time Ιησους Εμμανουήλ spoke those words to Matthew et al, until forever... since His words will NEVER pass away--which means NOT set aside.

 

[Guojing]

Well... seems like I needed that clarification about you, too. NOW I understand why you think you can keep both gospels at the same time... because you're not really keeping the first Gospel, are you?

I'm wondering when (according to you), if not NOW, would be a good time to preach this Gospel of the Kingdom to the still-Lost Sheep of Israel? Because it will be too late for that preaching, when the beast stands up. And that window of opportunity is closing fast, IMO-today.

And FYI, what was said to the Disciples only applies specifically to them... Luke of course, wasn't one of the Disciples, so he wasn't even there.

Personally, I believe that 'giving to him that asks things of you' applies to all of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel: from the time Ιησους Εμμανουήλ spoke those words to Matthew et al, until forever... since His words will NEVER pass away--which means NOT set aside.

The gospel of the kingdom is no longer the gospel that saves today.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN BUT ONE GOSPEL. Gal 1:6 I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ.8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse! Salvation by grace through faith has always been the way to salvation, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness Gen 15:6.

 

[Doug Brents]

You still don't get what I am trying to establish with you.

All along, I am saying Jesus's instructions in the 4 gospels are only directed to the nation of Israel during that specific time, so they do not apply to us now,

It is the same as what went down with Noah and the instruction to him to build an ark, which you agreed.

I am not saying you "are wrong for not selling everything you own".

I am saying you are wrong for claiming that you are obeying what Jesus said in Luke 12:33, when you are not.

Sell what you have does not mean sell ALL of what you have. You can believe that it does, and act accordingly. I see that it does not when searching other Scriptures, and so I act accordingly. I will not hold you to my freedom in Christ. You don’t hold me to your position, just as Christ will not.

 

[Guojing]

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN BUT ONE GOSPEL. Gal 1:6 I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ.8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!

This is a common fallacious reasoning of this passage. Paul is writing to gentiles in the Body of Christ, chapters 1 and 2

Let's really read the words carefully to understand what Paul is really saying.

Galatians 1:8-9

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul is actually saying if the gentiles are preached another gospel other than the one what they are receiving from Paul, let the preacher be accused.

Can you see you are misinterpreting it to mean "Paul also said if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed"?

 

[Guojing]

Sell what you have does not mean sell ALL of what you have. You can believe that it does, and act accordingly. I see that it does not when searching other Scriptures, and so I act accordingly. I will not hold you to my freedom in Christ. You don’t hold me to your position, just as Christ will not.

Its back to my original question to you about what "sell what you have" means literally.

If you command someone "sell what you have", if he still choose to keep something that he has for himself, is he following what you command him?

And of course Christ will not hold you to that, since he was never instructing you there in the first place, just like Noah and his ark. =)

 

[Doug Brents]

The gospel of the kingdom is no longer the gospel that saves today.

Now I know you’ve gone off the deep end. There is only ONE Gospel. That is the Gospel of Jesus. It includes the fact that He is the Christ (the Messiah) and He has established His Kingdom that we who believe in Him become a part of. There is no other Gospel.

 

[Guojing]

Now I know you’ve gone off the deep end. There is only ONE Gospel. That is the Gospel of Jesus. It includes the fact that He is the Christ (the Messiah) and He has established His Kingdom that we who believe in Him become a part of. There is no other Gospel.

That reply was not addressed to you. I don’t think you have even read the post I was replying to.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

This is a common fallacious reasoning of this passage. Paul is writing to gentiles in the Body of Christ, chapters 1 and 2

Let's really read the words carefully to understand what Paul is really saying.

Galatians 1:8-9

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul is actually saying if the gentiles are preached another gospel other than the one what they are receiving from Paul, let the preacher be accused.

Can you see you are misinterpreting it to mean "Paul also said if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed"?

No, I really don't see the truth in what you are saying, I see you are trying to say that the Jews were saved by a different means, in obeying the laws, but if you go back to how Abraham was declared righteous you will find that it was because he believed God and by that was by faith. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. This is the same principle as quoted in the NT that says no one is saved by the obeying of the law but we are children of Abraham by faith, Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. V14 here shows the blessing of Abraham came in the promise of God to Abraham that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Salvation has always been by faith and not by works, otherwise it is not of faith. Good works follow salvation by grace through faith, Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before shown that we should walk in them.

 

[Ligurian]

Well... seems like I needed that clarification about you, too. NOW I understand why you think you can keep both gospels at the same time... because you're not really keeping the first Gospel, are you.
I'm wondering when (according to you), if not now, WOULD be a good time to preach this Gospel of the Kingdom to the still-Lost Sheep of Israel? Because it will be too late for that preaching, when the beast stands up. And that window of opportunity is closing fast, IMO-today.

And FYI, what was said to the Disciples only applies specifically to them... Luke of course, wasn't one of the Disciples, so he wasn't even there.

Personally, I believe that 'giving to him that asks things of you' applies to all of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel: from the time Ιησους Εμμανουήλ spoke those words to Matthew et al, until forever... since His words will NEVER pass away--which means NOT set aside.

The gospel of the kingdom is no longer the gospel that saves today.

Because it's not Paul's gospel to the gentiles?

I believe that the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel have
their own apostle, named Ιησους Εμμανουήλ.
Sent is from the Greek word ἀπεστάλην, latinized Apostle.
Ιησους is sent by the Father only unto... Matthew 15:24.
Literally, Ιησους is apostle to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
And so, Ιησους sent His 12 Disciples only unto... Matthew 10:5-7.

 

[Ligurian]

Now I know you’ve gone off the deep end. There is only ONE Gospel. That is the Gospel of Jesus. It includes the fact that He is the Christ (the Messiah) and He has established His Kingdom that we who believe in Him become a part of. There is no other Gospel.

John 12:44-50, John 7:16, John 5:43, Deuteronomy 18:18-19

= The Father's Gospel =

Matthew 4:12-17 Now when Ιησους had heard that John was cast into prison He departed into Galilee.[13] And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:[14] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying:[15] The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea beyond Jordan, Galilee of this nation:[16] The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.[17] From that time Ιησους began to preach and to say: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.[18] And Ιησους, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.[19] And he saith unto them, Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.[20] And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.[21] And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.[22] And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.[23] And Ιησους went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35 And Ιησους went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the Gospel preached to them.

Matthew 24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in all the world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

That reply was not addressed to you. I don’t think you have even read the post I was replying to.

True... but even if read... narrow is the Way...

No, I really don't see the truth in what you are saying, I see you are trying to say that the Jews were saved by a different means, in obeying the laws, but if you go back to how Abraham was declared righteous you will find that it was because he believed God and by that was by faith. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In context:

Genesis 15:1-21 [6] And Abram (επίστευσεν) believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.[7] And he said to him, I am God that brought thee out of the land of the Chaldeans, so as to give thee this land to inherit.[8] And he said, Master and Lord, how shall I know that I shall inherit it?

Apparently, faith is a seed that grows... and then bears fruit:

Because here's Abraham's part of that same deal: circumcision, Genesis 17:1-10. Who's still doing these "works of Abraham" (John 8:38), today?

And btw, only rookies call all 12 tribes "the Jews"... which term, for all intents and purposes, pretends to write the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel out of existence.

 

[Ligurian]

This is a common fallacious reasoning of this passage. Paul is writing to gentiles in the Body of Christ, chapters 1 and 2

Let's really read the words carefully to understand what Paul is really saying.

Galatians 1:8-9
[...]
Paul is actually saying if the gentiles are preached another gospel other than the one what they are receiving from Paul, let the preacher be accused.

Can you see you are misinterpreting it to mean "Paul also said if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed"?

Bravo!

accursed = anathema = a (religious) ban or excommunicated:--accused, anathema, curse.

People of one assembly can't excommunicate the people of another assembly.