saved by grace or by works

[Doug Brents]

Well for one thing, no one preach Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

They changed the term everything to mean not everything, because its impossible to teach anyone now to obey everything Jesus taught Israel to obey in the book of Matthew, not even counting those commands by Jesus found in Luke, Mark and John.

So no one is obeying the Great Commission today, no matter how much they deny that.

So you are basing the applicability of a command on the fact that fallible Man does not obey all of what Jesus taught? We may as well throw out the entire Bible then, because we have never been able to do everything we were commanded to do, and we never will in this world.

We don’t have to teach EVERYTHING that Jesus taught BEFORE a person can be saved. Most of what Jesus taught is learned after we are saved, as we grow deeper roots as stronger Christians.

No sir, the Great Commission is still fully in force today. We are to GO to all the world (starting in our own house, PREACH the a
Gospel to everyone, BAPTIZE those who believe the Gospel (because that is the point at which their sins are washed away and they become part of the body of Christ), and then TEACH them what is in the rest of the NT about how to live as Christians.

 

[msortwell]

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, which is also referred to as the Mosaic Law.

To be clear . . . You are asserting that all laws instituted by God during the days of Moses remain in full effect?

 

[Guojing]

So you are basing the applicability of a command on the fact that fallible Man does not obey all of what Jesus taught? We may as well throw out the entire Bible then, because we have never been able to do everything we were commanded to do, and we never will in this world.

We don’t have to teach EVERYTHING that Jesus taught BEFORE a person can be saved. Most of what Jesus taught is learned after we are saved, as we grow deeper roots as stronger Christians.

No sir, the Great Commission is still fully in force today. We are to GO to all the world (starting in our own house, PREACH the a
Gospel to everyone, BAPTIZE those who believe the Gospel (because that is the point at which their sins are washed away and they become part of the body of Christ), and then TEACH them what is in the rest of the NT about how to live as Christians.

You do agree that none of us are obeying what Jesus commanded us in Matthew 28:20?

"teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"?

 

[Doug Brents]

You do agree that none of us are obeying what Jesus commanded us in Matthew 28:20?

"teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"?

Absolutely not. I, and many other ministers of the Word that I know personally, teach people to obey everything that is in the NT. I believe the OT was crucified with Christ and we are no longer bound to it in any way. But we are to obey the NT commands, knowing that no one will ever keep even the two commands to which Jesus reduced the OT (Love God with all your mind, heart, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself). But we are to strive to keep them the rest of our lives.

 

[Guojing]

Absolutely not. I, and many other ministers of the Word that I know personally, teach people to obey everything that is in the NT. I believe the OT was crucified with Christ and we are no longer bound to it in any way. But we are to obey the NT commands, knowing that no one will ever keep even the two commands to which Jesus reduced the OT (Love God with all your mind, heart, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself). But we are to strive to keep them the rest of our lives.

Including luke 12:33?

 

[Doug Brents]

Including luke 12:33?

What do you think that passage means? What is Jesus instructing us to do, and what is His purpose in that instruction?

 

[Guojing]

What do you think that passage means? What is Jesus instructing us to do, and what is His purpose in that instruction?

There is no need to spritualize what Jesus said and try to explain what Jesus "really meant". Jesus can speak for himself and don't need us to explain his literal words away.

There is sound reason why Israel needed to follow that command by Jesus literally. Daniel's 70th week was coming, the mark of the beast will become a reality then.

The more posessions you have, the more tempted one will be to take the mark of the beast.

With this understanding, you can better understand what James 5:1-8 was trying to say, when James was making fun of the rich Jews who refused to join in sharing their posessions.

So yes, we can profit from reading that commandment by God, without having to regard that as being directed to us.

 

[Bob corrigan]

Scripture teaches that Jesus did works:
Mat 11:12,20, 13:54
Mk 6:2
Lk 19:37
John 5:36, 9:4, 10:25, 38, 15:24.

Scripture teaches that believers are to do good works:
Mat 5:16, 16:27
Acts 9:36
Eph 2:10
1Tim 2:10, 5:10, 6:18
Heb 10:4,
1Pet 2:12
1John 3:12
Rev 2:2,9,13,19, 14:13.

James 2:14-26, "What is the use, my brothers, that even though a man says he has faith but does not have works, does the faith he says he has is able to save him?... vs 17 Even so faith without works is dead. Someone may say, 'You have faith, but I have works.' 'I would then say 'show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.'...vs 20 Do you not understand, you foolish man, that faith without works is dead. 21, Was not Abraham...justified by works when he offered Issac upon the altar? 22 Do you see how faith was welded together with his works, and by his works, his faith was made complete? ...24 You understand that by works a man is justified, a man is not justified by faith alone...26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."?

It's simple. Works do not save. But if one has true faith, they will do good works.

Mat 7:16-17 "You shall know them by their fruits...Every good tree brings forth good fruit, every corrupt tree brings forth corrupt fruit."

 

[Doug Brents]

There is no need to spritualize what Jesus said and try to explain what Jesus "really meant". Jesus can speak for himself and don't need us to explain his literal words away.

There is sound reason why Israel needed to follow that command by Jesus literally. Daniel's 70th week was coming, the mark of the beast will become a reality then.

The more posessions you have, the more tempted one will be to take the mark of the beast.

With this understanding, you can better understand what James 5:1-8 was trying to say, when James was making fun of the rich Jews who refused to join in sharing their posessions.

So yes, we can profit from reading that commandment by God, without having to regard that as being directed to us.

So are you saying that we today don’t need to lay up our treasure in Heaven? That our treasure, and therefore our hearts, can remain focused here in this life?

No my friend, this passage along with almost all of the rest of NT Scripture is still relevant today. There are a few passages, like the instruction to the rich young ruler to “sell everything you have” that are not directed at us today (this was what that one person needed to do). But for the most part, NT scripture is as relevant to us as it was to the first century.

 

[Guojing]

So are you saying that we today don’t need to lay up our treasure in Heaven? That our treasure, and therefore our hearts, can remain focused here in this life?

No my friend, this passage along with almost all of the rest of NT Scripture is still relevant today. There are a few passages, like the instruction to the rich young ruler to “sell everything you have” that are not directed at us today (this was what that one person needed to do). But for the most part, NT scripture is as relevant to us as it was to the first century.

My point is, you don't obey Luke 12:33 today.

 

[Doug Brents]

My point is, you don't obey Luke 12:33 today.

Sorry, but that is not true. I do give what I have to those in need. I do good things to those around me, thereby building up treasures in Heaven. Things in this life are tools with which we build our treasure in Heaven. If your treasure is the things in this life, then you have your reward, and will receive nothing but fire in the next life. But if your treasure is in Heaven, then the things of this life are just means to build that treasure greater (through the lives you’ve touched, the difference you have made, and the souls you have won).

Yes, even Luke 12:33 applies to us today.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry, but that is not true. I do give what I have to those in need.

Yes, even Luke 12:33 applies to us today.

Would you agree that the meaning of

• Sell all you have and give alms

is different from

• give what I have (some), to those in need?

It is good that you are doing the latter, whenever you can. But you have changed what Jesus stated in Luke 12:33.

 

[Doug Brents]

Would you agree that the meaning of

• Sell all you have and give alms

is different from

• give what I have (some), to those in need?

It is good that you are doing the latter, whenever you can. But you have changed what Jesus stated in Luke 12:33.

I agree there is a difference between ALL and SOME. But I (personally, given the context) don’t think Jesus’ intent was for us to actually get rid of everything we own. I think His intent was that we not be attached to the things of this world, but use them as tools to build our treasures in Heaven.
Even Jesus owned His cloths (the soldiers gambled over them as He died), but He was not so connected to them that He wouldn’t have sold them and gone naked if it meant someone would get a meal that otherwise wouldn’t have.

Now, I may be wrong about that, and maybe we should all sell EVERYTHING, live in cardboard boxes under a bridge, and eat what we can scavenge. But I don’t think many souls will be won in that manner.

But the fact that we don’t teach or follow this passage doesn’t begin to explain how the other passages we have been discussing don’t apply to us today. There is nothing about this passage that makes it not apply to us either (other that the fact that you don’t think many are following it).

 

[Bob corrigan]

So are you saying that we today don’t need to lay up our treasure in Heaven? That our treasure, and therefore our hearts, can remain focused here in this life?

No my friend, this passage along with almost all of the rest of NT Scripture is still relevant today. There are a few passages, like the instruction to the rich young ruler to “sell everything you have” that are not directed at us today (this was what that one person needed to do). But for the most part, NT scripture is as relevant to us as it was to the first century.

If I may, the phrase "treasure in heaven" is a Jewish idiom that means " doing good works." "Money, currency, treasure, meaning physical wealth, are things of the world. There won't be any need for these things in heaven. I am sure we will have things to do in heaven, but whatever these things may be, in no way will they be called," job's." Jobs where we will get ",paid a wage." Why would anybody in heaven, with the gift of eternity, need money? What would a person in heaven "have to buy or pay for?"Or, will be there some sort of "status" system in heaven based on someone' s "Heavenly Net Worth?" I don't mean to criticize you. I heard, yet again, some pastor say, " Send your money ahead, build up your heavenly treasure." Sigh. Anyway, I hope this helps.

 

[Guojing]

I agree there is a difference between ALL and SOME. But I (personally, given the context) don’t think Jesus’ intent was for us to actually get rid of everything we own.

So its back to my original point to you

Well for one thing, no one preach Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

They changed the term everything to mean not everything, because its impossible to teach anyone now to obey everything Jesus taught Israel to obey in the book of Matthew, not even counting those commands by Jesus found in Luke, Mark and John.

So no one is obeying the Great Commission today, no matter how much they deny that.

 

[Doug Brents]

If I may, the phrase "treasure in heaven" is a Jewish idiom that means " doing good works." "Money, currency, treasure, meaning physical wealth, are things of the world. There won't be any need for these things in heaven. I am sure we will have things to do in heaven, but whatever these things may be, in no way will they be called," job's." Jobs where we will get ",paid a wage." Why would anybody in heaven, with the gift of eternity, need money? What would a person in heaven "have to buy or pay for?"Or, will be there some sort of "status" system in heaven based on someone' s "Heavenly Net Worth?" I don't mean to criticize you. I heard, yet again, some pastor say, " Send your money ahead, build up your heavenly treasure." Sigh. Anyway, I hope this helps.

I believe, based on the hints given in Scripture, that there will be some greater and some lesser among the saints in Heaven. I agree that there will be no “money” and no “jobs” in Heaven. But that does not mean that Jesus was using a bad analogy in telling us to lay up a “treasure” in Heaven. That treasure may be our “bragging rights”, or it may be a more bejeweled “crown”, or something else, but we are told to use the things of this life to build that treasure there, and to remain focused and attached to the eternal treasure, and not the temporary things of this world.

 

[Doug Brents]

So its back to my original point to you

So what you’re really saying is that Christianity is meaningless and we should forget about the whole thing, because no one is teaching everything that Jesus taught, and no one could keep all of His commands even if we did teach it all?

 

[Guojing]

So what you’re really saying is that Christianity is meaningless and we should forget about the whole thing, because no one is teaching everything that Jesus taught, and no one could keep all of His commands even if we did teach it all?

No, I am simply saying that no one is actually obeying the Great Commission, as stated by Jesus, no matter how much they try to deny.

Jesus never wanted us to do that anyway. When he said the Great Commission, it was to Israel. We were still cut off from him at Matthew 28, until he saved the Apostle Paul to reach out to us (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Paul never instructed us to "obey the Great Commission".

 

[Doug Brents]

No, I am simply saying that no one is actually obeying the Great Commission, as stated by Jesus, no matter how much they try to deny.

Jesus never wanted us to do that anyway. When he said the Great Commission, it was to Israel. We were still cut off from him at Matthew 28, until he saved the Apostle Paul to reach out to us (Ephesians 2:11-12).

Paul never instructed us to "obey the Great Commission".

The fact that “no one is actually obeying the Great Commission” (which I wholeheartedly disagree with) does not invalidate the command from Jesus. It is still a command of God whether we are actually keeping it or not.

There is no longer Jew nor Gentile. We are all one under Christ (since His resurrection, not just since Paul was commissioned to preach to the Gentiles). There is now only two distinctions of mankind: those who are “in Christ” (the heirs of Abraham, co-heirs with Christ, etc.), and those who are lost.

All who are in Christ are bound to Jesus’ command to seek and save the lost.

Lastly, who is your Lord and Savior? Paul? Or Jesus? If it is Jesus, then it doesn’t matter what Paul said (if it is contrary to what Jesus taught). The only thing that matters is what Jesus said.

 

[Guojing]

The fact that “no one is actually obeying the Great Commission” (which I wholeheartedly disagree with) does not invalidate the command from Jesus. It is still a command of God whether we are actually keeping it or not.

Think of the Great Commission as similar to God commanding Noah to build an ark.

Seeing it this way, you are correct, "It is still a command of God whether we are actually keeping it or not."

But the key point to understand is that God does not expect anyone to build an ark now.

That is "rightly dividing the word of truth".