Saved by Faith or grace?

[Wordkeeper]

Thank you, I'm aware of the definition of antithetical, having looked it up prior to responding. But grace does still not mean "favor". It still means the uncreated energies of God at work in the world and in persons. That grace was at work in the souls and bodies of certain Jews, especially in the likes of Abraham, in whom not only the Israelites were blessed, but Orthodox Christians who are "true Israelites indeed, in whom there is no guile". Where do you suppose that Abraham got his great faith from? You don't think that the Holy Spirit had been working in certain mysterious ways to bring this about in the person of Abraham? Do you also suppose that Abraham Himself never had any say in how he responded to the persuasion of the Holy Spirit? We (Orthodox Christians) see grace at work everyday. It is a matter of experiencing the very presence of God in this world, working countless miraculous and wondrous deeds, leaving no doubt that God is with us. But not just with us, but in us as well.

Why does Paul say boasting is excluded?

Were the Gentiles included because of God's hyperactivity or because He did not obstruct entry with the required high standard?

 

[truefiction1]

Why does Paul say boasting is excluded?

One filled with the grace of God does no boasting, because the first gift of grace is humility. True humility allows a person to see that it is only by God's touch that good can come into and out of anyone of us.

 

[truefiction1]

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"

 

[truefiction1]

Why does Paul say boasting is excluded?

Were the Gentiles included because of God's hyperactivity or because He did not obstruct entry with the required high standard?

God has a perfect plan that it incomprehensible to us. Who can fathom the mind of God? God is Love. This is what we learn by the Holy Spirit Who dwells in us if we seek righteousness. I must trust fully in the Love of God rather than in my own rational powers.

God Loves all of his creatures more than we can imagine or understand, unless we too have become as He is. The Holy Spirit teaches us to become as God is. By this means I trust that whatever God is doing is perfect, though I can't fathom it. I do know what the Scripture tells us, that God desires that all men come to Him so that He can give them Life, and blessings beyond description -- even the gentiles, who are His creatures also.

 

[Wordkeeper]

One filled with the grace of God does no boasting, because the first gift of grace is humility. True humility allows a person to see that it is only by God's touch that good can come into and out of anyone of us.

Would you agree that Paul said boasting was excluded because some Gentiles were boasting that they were better than the Jews and God was ejecting Jews out of His People Group, indicated by throwing them out of Rome, leaving the Gentiles to take over the church? Claudius banned the Jews from Rome and after he died , Jews came back to find they were not being accepted in the church. This is a historical fact.

 

[Wordkeeper]

God has a perfect plan that it incomprehensible to us. Who can fathom the mind of God? God is Love. This is what we learn by the Holy Spirit Who dwells in us if we seek righteousness. I must trust fully in the Love of God rather than in my own rational powers.

God Loves all of his creatures more than we can imagine or understand, unless we too have become as He is. The Holy Spirit teaches us to become as God is. By this means I trust that whatever God is doing is perfect, though I can't fathom it. I do know what the Scripture tells us, that God desires that all men come to Him so that He can give them Life, and blessings beyond description -- even the gentiles, who are His creatures also.

Actually it is comprehensible if you ask very day for the Holy Spirit to lead you into ALL truth.

Quote
What the New Testament really says is God wants you to be a renewed human being helping him to renew his creation, and his resurrection was the opening bell. And when he returns to fulfil the plan, you won't be going up there to him, he'll be coming down here.

N. T. Wright

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html

 

[truefiction1]

Would you agree that Paul said boasting was excluded because some Gentiles were boasting that they were better than the Jews and God was ejecting Jews out of His People Group, indicated by throwing them out of Rome, leaving the Gentiles to take over the church? Claudius banned the Jews from Rome and after he died , Jews came back to find they were not being accepted in the church. This is a historical fact.

Well, I thought that Paul's letters addressing the question of faith and works of the Law were on account of Jews insisting that gentiles must submit to the Jewish practice of circumcision. Some deemed themselves righteous in the eyes of God by virtue of their strict obedience to traditional religious ritualistic practices. In many instances, there was an adherence to the ritualistic practices but an absence of true faith in God. Paul's discourse on faith and the works of the Jewish Law were a response to this controversy. Works of Love, however, Paul knows are inseparable from true faith, because the same Holy Spirit that gives faith also fills with Love, so that one who is in the fullness of the Holy Spirit will commit the works of Love toward others, just as Christ Himself always does.

 

[truefiction1]

Actually it is comprehensible if you ask very day for the Holy Spirit to lead you into ALL truth.

Quote
What the New Testament really says is God wants you to be a renewed human being helping him to renew his creation, and his resurrection was the opening bell. And when he returns to fulfil the plan, you won't be going up there to him, he'll be coming down here.

N. T. Wright

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html

Except there will be a "new heaven and a new earth". So what we may think we know is always being superseded by the infinite Truth and greatness of God, for eternity.

 

[truefiction1]

When I was younger, even younger than you are now, I read certain books of the "Chronicles of Narnia" by C.S. Lewis. In the final book of the series, entitles "The Last Battle", the friends of Aslan, who had fought with Him in the final battle between good and evil, found themselves caught up in a "neverending" mode of being in which they were continuously going "higher and deeper" into the infinite mysteries of the infinite Creator of all -- God. This is a good way to glimpse what heaven is like. Our minds will never, ever transcribe the mind and the ways of God. Our Eternal Life in Communion with God will always be brand new... forever and ever.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Except there will be a "new heaven and a new earth". So what we may think we know is always being superseded by the infinite Truth and greatness of God, for eternity.

I thought you said it was incomprehensible.

If you use this excuse, you'll be fo u nd non compliant and pay the penalty, God turning yo u away with I never knew you.

Just like the IRS will penalise you for not studying the rules.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Well, I thought that Paul's letters addressing the question of faith and works of the Law were on account of Jews insisting that gentiles must submit to the Jewish practice of circumcision. Some deemed themselves righteous in the eyes of God by virtue of their strict obedience to traditional religious ritualistic practices. In many instances, there was an adherence to the ritualistic practices but an absence of true faith in God. Paul's discourse on faith and the works of the Jewish Law were a response to this controversy. Works of Love, however, Paul knows are inseparable from true faith, because the same Holy Spirit that gives faith also fills with Love, so that one who is in the fullness of the Holy Spirit will commit the works of Love toward others, just as Christ Himself always does.

https://bible.org/seriespage/6-romans-introduction-argument-and-outline

Quote
All of the above explain why Paul wrote what he wrote to whom he wrote—except for chapters 9–11. Baur suggested that this was the heart of the epistle, while most today do not know what to do with it. Recently, Paul B. Fowler, formerly of Reformed Seminary, argued that “Paul’s primary purpose in writing Romans was to dispel anti-Semitism”5 He based his argument on (1) many internal clues (11:13ff., etc., where Gentile pride has cropped up; cf. the whole thrust of chs. 9–11); (2) one main external clue (the expulsion of the Jews from Rome by Claudius a few years earlier—which would certainly continue to have rippling effects, even within the church); and (3) a chiastic pattern unfolding some of the structure of the book (viz., in chapter 3 Paul asks five questions which are unfolded in reverse order throughout chapters 3–11). What is intriguing is that, concerning this last point (the chiastic structure), although Paul answers in brief the question of 3:1 (“What advantage has the Jew?”) in the next verse, he really expands on it in chapters 9–11. Although Fowler goes too far in seeing a response to anti-Semitism as the primary purpose of Romans, I think he is right that this forms part of the purpose. Perhaps, in fact, it may be precisely because Paul’s treatment of Israel’s future occupies his mind so much in this letter that he leaves out other eschatological issues found in his other Hauptbriefe.

In sum, Paul’s occasion-purpose for writing Romans is threefold: (1) he was going west and needed to have a base of operations in a church that shared both his vision and his theology; (2) he knew that his life was in danger and wanted to give something of a more balanced, systematic presentation of his gospel, to leave as a memorial; and (3) he detected anti-Semitism arising in the Roman church through the influence of Claudius’ edict and wanted to give a theologically-based correction to this attitude.

 

[truefiction1]

I thought you said it was incomprehensible.

If you use this excuse, you'll be fo u nd non compliant and pay the penalty, God turning yo u away with I never knew you.

Just like the IRS will penalise you for not studying the rules.

God is ineffable, His mind and His way inconceivable. The Bible says it and the Holy Spirit bears witness to it.

 

[truefiction1]

https://bible.org/seriespage/6-romans-introduction-argument-and-outline

Quote
All of the above explain why Paul wrote what he wrote to whom he wrote—except for chapters 9–11. Baur suggested that this was the heart of the epistle, while most today do not know what to do with it. Recently, Paul B. Fowler, formerly of Reformed Seminary, argued that “Paul’s primary purpose in writing Romans was to dispel anti-Semitism”5 He based his argument on (1) many internal clues (11:13ff., etc., where Gentile pride has cropped up; cf. the whole thrust of chs. 9–11); (2) one main external clue (the expulsion of the Jews from Rome by Claudius a few years earlier—which would certainly continue to have rippling effects, even within the church); and (3) a chiastic pattern unfolding some of the structure of the book (viz., in chapter 3 Paul asks five questions which are unfolded in reverse order throughout chapters 3–11). What is intriguing is that, concerning this last point (the chiastic structure), although Paul answers in brief the question of 3:1 (“What advantage has the Jew?”) in the next verse, he really expands on it in chapters 9–11. Although Fowler goes too far in seeing a response to anti-Semitism as the primary purpose of Romans, I think he is right that this forms part of the purpose. Perhaps, in fact, it may be precisely because Paul’s treatment of Israel’s future occupies his mind so much in this letter that he leaves out other eschatological issues found in his other Hauptbriefe.

In sum, Paul’s occasion-purpose for writing Romans is threefold: (1) he was going west and needed to have a base of operations in a church that shared both his vision and his theology; (2) he knew that his life was in danger and wanted to give something of a more balanced, systematic presentation of his gospel, to leave as a memorial; and (3) he detected anti-Semitism arising in the Roman church through the influence of Claudius’ edict and wanted to give a theologically-based correction to this attitude.

Okay, I'll certainly agree to Paul's purpose of addressing anti-Semitism. But I guess I don't see how this negates the fact that God's Holy Spirit is working in this world and in people to effect His preordained, ineffable plans, and that this work of the Holy Spirit is what is called "grace".

 

[Wordkeeper]

God is ineffable, His mind and His way inconceivable. The Bible says it and the Holy Spirit bears witness to it.

But He wants you to be a blessing to the world like Adam was meant to be and He has shown how it can be done. Do your due diligence. That means do your homework

 

[Wordkeeper]

Okay, I'll certainly agree to Paul's purpose of addressing anti-Semitism. But I guess I don't see how this negates the fact that God's Holy Spirit is working in this world and in people to effect His preordained, ineffable plans, and that this work of the Holy Spirit is what is called "grace".

It confirms that the Gentiles were boasting and the boasting was good works not works of the law and Paul said they could not boast because they were included not because of good works but God's leniency, grace. Whew!

 

[truefiction1]

But He wants you to be a blessing to the world like Adam was meant to be and He has shown how it can be done. Do your due diligence. That means do your homework

God is Love, so God wants to be intimate with all His creatures. The Holy Spirit is right here... right now... for this very thing. This is the "grace" that produces faith, and saves.

 

[truefiction1]

It confirms that the Gentiles were boasting and the boasting was good works not works of the law and Paul said they could not boast because they were included not because of good works but God's leniency, grace. Whew!

We agree. But God's grace is not "leniency". God's grace is God Himself, in the form of His uncreated energy that works all around us and within us and between us. If you call grace a "thing", you separate God and man once again, as did the fall of Adam, and largely undo the salvific work of God in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Grace is not a "thing". Grace is a Divine Person seeking to be intimate with you -- to be one with you.

 

[truefiction1]

God's uncreated energy was at work in the souls of the gentiles when they first heard the Gospel, enabling them to receive the Word with faith. "Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in Heaven revealed it to you." It was God who called the gentiles, by His action within and between them. His Holy Spirit was touching their spirits and illumining their minds. The Holy Spirit had been at work preparing them to receive the Gospel before they were even conceived in their mother's wombs. All is by the power of the Holy Spirit. This power (energy) is "grace".

 

[truefiction1]

It is by "grace" that man comes into existence in the first place. "Grace" is the Spirit of God "moving over the face of the waters". All things are, and all who are saved are done so by the grace (work) of the Holy Spirit, decreed to be carried out by the Father through His Word (Who is Christ).

 

[Wordkeeper]

It is by "grace" that man comes into existence in the first place. "Grace" is the Spirit of God "moving over the face of the waters". All things are, and all who are saved are done so by the grace (work) of the Holy Spirit, decreed to be carried out by the Father through His Word (Who is Christ).

Just pray to the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth. And ask for a gathering of elders to pray over you.