Saved by Faith or grace?

[fhansen]

This is true. The waters only become muddied when someone takes it a step further and insists that we are saved BY those works of charity and/or obedience, in whole or in part.

A problem I’ve observed at times is where there's confusion about the role of faith. When faith becomes synonymous with righteousness, rather than the means to righteousness, to the “righteousness of God based on faith” as per Phil 3, then errors can set in. When faith becomes a get-out-of-hell-free-card, relieving us of the sense of any obligation, any responsibility, any burden, no matter how light, to be righteous apart from simply faith, itself, as if God wouldn't want or demand anything more of us, any fruits from our faith as it were whether they be increased holiness or performing works of love or witnessing to our faith, etc, then we misunderstand the gospel. Does faith, alone, guarantee these acts? Some say yes, some say no, others say it doesn’t need to, even if the opportunities are present.

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

So both Israel and Gentiles were included in the people of God without good works. Don't say works of law are being addressed here in EPHESIANS 2:8, 9.

I already have, and pointed out verses that verify Pauls teaching on works of the law.

Old Covenant Dominion of sin

Law = Judgment

Death and the grave

New Covenant Dominion of grace

Holiness = Sanctification

Salvation /Eternal life

Romans 6:16-23 and St. Paul's contrast of the parallels between two dominations or-one form of domination is under the Old Covenant Law ( Mosaic law) and the other under the New Covenant in Christ.
The Old Covenant Law of Moses ( Mosaic law) could not bring salvation; it only identified sin but was incapable of removing sin (the blood of an animal could never be perfect enough to remove sin but was only a temporary remedy to sin).

Eph 2:8,9 - faith excludes “works of law” ( Mosaic law) - AGAIN:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

 

[truefiction1]

Just pray to the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth. And ask for a gathering of elders to pray over you.

I am of a gathering of elders, but in the true Church that teaches correct doctrine. Instead of just praying to the Holy Spirit, which we do already, You'd do well to read something of history of Christian doctrine. Not something written from the point of view of the radical reformers who reject actual history and invent their own, but rather, something more reliable, like "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" by Damick.

 

[Albion]

A problem I’ve observed at times is where there's confusion about the role of faith. When faith becomes synonymous with righteousness, rather than the means to righteousness, to the “righteousness of God based on faith” as per Phil 3, then errors can set in. When faith becomes a get-out-of-hell-free-card, relieving us of the sense of any obligation, any responsibility, any burden, no matter how light, to be righteous apart from simply faith, itself, as if God wouldn't want or demand anything more of us, any fruits from our faith as it were whether they be increased holiness or performing works of love or witnessing to our faith, etc, then we misunderstand the gospel. Does faith, alone, guarantee these acts? Some say yes, some say no, others say it doesn’t need to, even if the opportunities are present.

Some people have taken their belief system to that extreme, but it is not inherent in Sola Fide, nor is it what the great majority of reformed churches teach. Therefore, my appeal was for an end to this kind of misplaced attacking of Sola Fide through references to what some people or churches have decided to believe in place of Sola Fide.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Some people have taken their belief system to that extreme, but it is not inherent in Sola Fide, nor is it what the great majority of reformed churches teach. Therefore, my appeal was for an end to this kind of misplaced attacking of Sola Fide through references to what some people or churches have decided to believe in place of Sola Fide.

Another aspect of justified by faith alone that is taught, is that man is so lost in his condition and they can do no good whatsoever, therefore they could not even have faith because they are totally depraved.

How we understand mans condition in sin affects how we look at the doctrine that many teach of Justification of faith alone.

But this is where the issue becomes much deeper.

Yes, all men are depraved and can do no good or work to merit grace and no spiritual life can come to them outside of Christ. Faith is not a work and belief is not a work. Our faith is not in ourself but in God’s work as we know of it and believe in it outwardly on the cross through Jesus death burial and resurrection and as we know it inwardly and believe in the word in our hearts.God is the initiator but we must respond, believe have faith receive him, come unto him, will to do so.

But since man could have nothing to believe or any hope of his own self God has not left man in that condition without a witness.

Acts 14:17
"Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness."

This witness is the true Light that ligheth every man that cometh into the world

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that comethinto the world."

By the light God reproves all men of sin everywhere of all times.

Ephesians 5:13
But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light."

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

God is working in men by His Light, word, seed, truth and shining in their sinful hearts. At first the light will reprove and expose them but if they come to the light , or hear the word in their heart they can have life in Christ. This word was made flesh and dwelt among us and this Word is Christ. Who died for the sin of the word and was buried and rose again. As a person receives the word in His heart this is his faith in the word and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.This is how all are men come to the grace that saves them at the new birth, being born again by the word of God.

John 3:21
"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

John 12:36
"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."

So in a sense we have all received grace for that grace of salvation in Christ, "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."(John 1:16 KJV) because God has sown the seed in the hearts of all men. But this seed, or word is not in all men by union until they receive the word and then their faith is in that word.

This inward mystery of Christ in you is one of the keys I believe that answers some of the objections from both sides of this discussion. But few seldom even discuss such things. This is mystery that hath been hid from ages and from generations but now is made manifest.


another section to consider

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."(2 Corinthians 4:4-7 KJV)


"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world...12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"( John 1:9, 12 KJV)

Romans 2:15,16
"15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

 

[Wordkeeper]

I already have, and pointed out verses that verify Pauls teaching on works of the law.

Old Covenant Dominion of sin

Law = Judgment

Death and the grave

New Covenant Dominion of grace

Holiness = Sanctification

Salvation /Eternal life

Romans 6:16-23 and St. Paul's contrast of the parallels between two dominations or-one form of domination is under the Old Covenant Law ( Mosaic law) and the other under the New Covenant in Christ.
The Old Covenant Law of Moses ( Mosaic law) could not bring salvation; it only identified sin but was incapable of removing sin (the blood of an animal could never be perfect enough to remove sin but was only a temporary remedy to sin).

Eph 2:8,9 - faith excludes “works of law” ( Mosaic law) - AGAIN:
James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Sure but in Ephesians 2:8, 9 it does not mean what you say. In language, words have different meaning in diffrent contexts. Light can mean without weight sometimes and other times it can mean a bulb. So ergon means good works in Ephesians 2:8, 9 and not works of the law because it is addressed to GENTILES and grace, freedom from requirements, is antithetical to compliance to a moral requirement. When God chose Israel and, later, when He included Gentiles, He ignored righteousness as a requirement, when choosing, because if He had insisted on the standard of Righteousness required for choosing, no one would have been chosen, because no nation was righteous, not one.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 3:9-12
9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”b

In the above, moral requirements were overlooked graciously, not works of the law, circumcision and sabbath keeping.

If you can't understand this, I'm afraid that even if someone returned from the dead you won't listen to him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all:

This is the part of this discussion that few seem to discuss or even enter into and this is the vital aspect as I understand.

When justified by faith alone that is taught, is often said that man is so lost in his condition and they can do no good whatsoever, therefore they could not even have faith because they are totally depraved.

How we understand mans condition in sin affects how we look at the doctrine that many teach of Justification of faith alone.

But this is where the issue becomes much deeper.

Yes, all men are depraved and can do no good or work to merit grace from God in their own or by their own power. Also, no spiritual life can come to them outside of Christ. Faith is not a work and belief is not a work that is by human effort or power to put God in their debt. (Romans 5:5) so belief is not a work as Paul said. Our faith is not in ourself but in God’s work as we know of it and believe in it outwardly on the cross through Jesus death burial and resurrection and as we know it inwardly and believe in the word in our hearts.God is the initiator but we must respond, believe have faith receive him, come unto him, will to do so.

But since man could have nothing to believe or any hope of his own self God has not left man in that condition without a witness.

Acts 14:17
"Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness."

This witness is the true Light that ligheth every man that cometh into the world

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that comethinto the world."

By the light God reproves all men of sin everywhere of all times.

Ephesians 5:13
But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light."

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

God is working in men by His Light, word, seed, truth and shining in their sinful hearts. At first the light will reprove and expose them but if they come to the light , or hear the word in their heart they can have life in Christ. This word was made flesh and dwelt among us and this Word is Christ. Who died for the sin of the word and was buried and rose again. As a person receives the word in His heart this is his faith in the word and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.This is how all are men come to the grace that saves them at the new birth, being born again by the word of God.

John 3:21
"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

John 12:36
"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side."

So in a sense we have all received grace for that grace of salvation in Christ, "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."(John 1:16 KJV) because God has sown the seed in the hearts of all men. But this seed, or word is not in all men by union until they receive the word and then their faith is in that word.

At first the seed is sown in the heart and if men receive it having their hearts broken up like the ground of a field that has to be opened up first for the seed, then the seed can enter in and die and be buried in their heart and raised there as well. In this sense we are crucified with Christ buried with him and risen with him .

Romans 6 - 4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

But if men harden their hearts and do not believe then the seed does not enter in and have union with them they in a sense trample under foot the seed by their sins and inquiries they are crucifying Christ in their hearts yet the seed stays there to reprove all sin still and the word will judge them.

This inward mystery of Christ in you is one of the keys I believe that answers some of the objections from both sides of this discussion. But few seldom even discuss such things. This is mystery that hath been hid from ages and from generations but now is made manifest.


another section to consider

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."(2 Corinthians 4:4-7 KJV)


"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world...12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"( John 1:9, 12 KJV)

Romans 2:15,16
"15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

 

[LoveofTruth]

At first the seed is sown in the heart and if men receive it having their hearts broken up like the ground of a field that has to be opened up first for the seed, then the seed can enter in and die and be buried in their heart and raised there as well. In this sense we are crucified with Christ buried with him and risen with him .

But if men harden their hearts and do not believe then the seed does not enter in and have union with them they in a sense trample under foot the seed by their sins and inquiries they are crucifying Christ in their hearts yet the seed stays there to reprove all sin still and the word will judge them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus said,

John 3 - 12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”

John 12 - 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

God is Love, so God wants to be intimate with all His creatures. The Holy Spirit is right here... right now... for this very thing. This is the "grace" that produces faith, and saves.

Don’t you believe that grace comes through meritous sacraments performed by men called “priest” who wear long robes and dispense the graces to those who DO certain actions?

If so this s not grace the Roman Catholics also may have a similar misunderstanding of the grace of God .

I believe the Roman Catholics teach

“the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, "the sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. “

Is this how you see it also?

If so I have great problems with your understanding of salvation and grace.

Do you believe this

“· Sacraments. The sacraments are seen as a "means of grace" because God works through his Church”

 

[Albion]

Don’t you believe that grace comes through meritous sacraments performed by men called “priest” who wear long robes and dispense the graces to those who DO certain actions?

Well...to those who receive the sacraments, if that's what you mean by "DO."

Is this how you see it also?

If so I have great problems with your understanding of salvation and grace.

Almost every theological POV imaginable has been voiced here by someone or other at some time or other, so there's no reason that you should be excluded.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well...to those who receive the sacraments, if that's what you mean by "DO”

I am saying, that by such a teaching men can do an outward work to be saved and put God in their debt by such a work and so meritous grace is an error.

No man can dispense the grace of salvation to anyone who follows an outward act that would be equal to works of the law. In fact I have heard some say that water baptism is such a meritous work for salvation and unless a person has the priest or another in such a role water baptize a person they have no salvation.

This is identical in practice though not in form as the Old Testament circumcision under the law. I have heard some men even say that water baptism is exactly like circumcision under the law in its effect. Although even circumcision was not for salvation in OT either.

And do another gospel is preached by meritous grace

To know the true saving gospel read 1 Cor 15:1–4 (KJV)

 

[Albion]

I am saying, that iby such a teaching men can do an outward work to be saved and put God in their debt by such a work and so meritous grace is an error.

They don't believe it quite that way. They do believe that Grace saves, but that good works are necessary, too. Receiving the sacraments, however, is not a meritorious work like acts of charity and mercy such as Christ spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount.

No man can dispense the grace of salvation to anyone who follows an outward act that would be equal to works of the law.

There's quite a lot to deal with in that sentence, but the (RC) church doesn't teach anything that would conflict with what you've said here.

In fact I have heard some say that water baptism is such a meritous work for salvation and unless a person has the priest or another in such a role water baptize a person they have no salvation.

Some churches will insist that baptism is necessary for salvation, but that doesn't mean that salvation will be assured IF a person is baptized.

This is identical in practice though not in form as the Old Testament circumcision under the law.

No. It might be identical or similar to the POV taken by Baptists--that it's an obligation--but not to baptism as understood by the older churches of Christianity which see it as forgiving sins, imparting grace for spiritual growth, and to become a member of Christ's church.

I have heard some men even say that water baptism is exactly like circumcision under the law in its effect.

Any Catholic men in that group? I would not think so unless they are very much unaware of their own churchs stance on the matter.

 

[truefiction1]

Don’t you believe that grace comes through meritous sacraments performed by men called “priest” who wear long robes and dispense the graces to those who DO certain actions?

If so this s not grace the Roman Catholics also may have a similar misunderstanding of the grace of God .

I believe the Roman Catholics teach

“the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, "the sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. “

Is this how you see it also?

If so I have great problems with your understanding of salvation and grace.

Do you believe this

“· Sacraments. The sacraments are seen as a "means of grace" because God works through his Church”

No, we don't believe that in the way you suspect.

Don't you believe that only what is spiritual and conceptual is of any use in salvation, therefor implicitly denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, while not explicitely denying it, as your kin who are described in the Epistles of John did (whom John called "anti-christ"? You're obviously a dualist who follows after the spirit of the radical reformation and has assimilated their "traditons of men" into your own convictions. You too would do well to read "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" by Damick - start to finish. If, after having done so of your own accord you still have objections to Orthodoxy, I'll consider them. Right now our individual histories separate us too drastically to even bother with discussing anything. I will never agree with this attitude of yours that Jesus Christ came to abolish religion rather than to fulfill it, because He Himself taught against this. You think He abolished everything, and so your religion consists of four bare walls and a sermon. The real Christ did not abolish the use of physical matter as means of Spiritual Communion with Him -- radical reformers did.

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

Sure but in Ephesians 2:8, 9 it does not mean what you say. In language, words have different meaning in diffrent contexts. Light can mean without weight sometimes and other times it can mean a bulb. So ergon means good works in Ephesians 2:8, 9 and not works of the law because it is addressed to GENTILES and grace, freedom from requirements, is antithetical to compliance to a moral requirement. When God chose Israel and, later, when He included Gentiles, He ignored righteousness as a requirement, when choosing, because if He had insisted on the standard of Righteousness required for choosing, no one would have been chosen, because no nation was righteous, not one.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

No it is "ergon nomou" - (works of the law) ("ergon" ἔργοις Does not mean GOOD!)

Exactly! Right after Paul’s teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law in Eph 2:8,9 - ,Eph. 2:10 - Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” – a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).

I know of :
The Literal versus the Literalist Interpretation of Scripture, The Literal and Spiritual Sense of Scripture, The Plenary Sense of Scripture, The Use of Hyperbole in Scripture etc. Very well. The bible studied in the proper context.

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

Romans 3:9-12
9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”b

In the above, moral requirements were overlooked graciously, not works of the law, circumcision and sabbath keeping.

I answered this passage in an earlier post. I feel you ignore most of the posts I upload, as I keep having to repeat them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, we don't believe that in the way you suspect.

Don't you believe that only what is spiritual and conceptual is of any use in salvation, therefor implicitly denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, while not explicitely denying it, as your kin who are described in the Epistles of John did (whom John called "anti-christ"? You're obviously a dualist who follows after the spirit of the radical reformation and has assimilated their "traditons of men" into your own convictions. You too would do well to read "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" by Damick - start to finish. If, after having done so of your own accord you still have objections to Orthodoxy, I'll consider them. Right now our individual histories separate us too drastically to even bother with discussing anything. I will never agree with this attitude of yours that Jesus Christ came to abolish religion rather than to fulfill it, because He Himself taught against this. You think He abolished everything, and so your religion consists of four bare walls and a sermon. The real Christ did not abolish the use of physical matter as means of Spiritual Communion with Him -- radical reformers did.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh, he is God manifest in the flesh, he is the Word made flesh and as I have been saying he purchased the gift that came upon all men . The only way the seed (the word of God, the true Light that lightest every man) is given is through the work of Jesus Christ in time on the cross in the flesh.

And no man can merit grace by works of the flesh. To add Water baptism as part of the gospel for salvation is another gospel. And to make grace applicable to any sincere heart only through the means of a priest who wears long robes and is exalted over the body is not true either.

And remember Jesus said ,

John 4 - 23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, we don't believe that in the way you suspect.

Don't you believe that only what is spiritual and conceptual is of any use in salvation, therefor implicitly denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, while not explicitely denying it, as your kin who are described in the Epistles of John did (whom John called "anti-christ"? You're obviously a dualist who follows after the spirit of the radical reformation and has assimilated their "traditons of men" into your own convictions. You too would do well to read "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy" by Damick - start to finish. If, after having done so of your own accord you still have objections to Orthodoxy, I'll consider them. Right now our individual histories separate us too drastically to even bother with discussing anything. I will never agree with this attitude of yours that Jesus Christ came to abolish religion rather than to fulfill it, because He Himself taught against this. You think He abolished everything, and so your religion consists of four bare walls and a sermon. The real Christ did not abolish the use of physical matter as means of Spiritual Communion with Him -- radical reformers did.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh and salvation is absolutely dependant in his physical death and resurrection and shed blood. He purchased the salvation that believers know inwardly and he is the life in the heart. The Word was made flesh and sksobdwells I all believers this is the word of His grace

2 Corinthians 5 - 16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

Romans 8 - 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

 

[fhansen]

I am saying, that iby such a teaching men can do an outward work to be saved and put God in their debt by such a work and so meritous grace is an error.

No man can dispense the grace of salvation to anyone who follows an outward act that would be equal to works of the law. In fact I have heard some say that water baptism is such a meritous work for salvation and unless a person has the priest or another in such a role water baptize a person they have no salvation.

This is identical in practice though not in form as the Old Testament circumcision under the law. I have heard some men even say that water baptism is exactly like circumcision under the law in its effect. Although even circumcision was not for salvation in OT either.

And do another gospel is preached by meritous grace

To know the true saving gospel read 1 Cor 15:1–4 (KJV)

Christ commanded Baptism-so we do it. It's known as the "sacrament of faith", because it's the first formal, public, profession of faith, in obedience to His command, which we're to obey out of love for Him. There wasn't an issue in the early church over this-it was simply the way it was done, a belief and practice that was carried down through the centuries.

 

[truefiction1]

Jesus Christ cane in the flesh and salvation is absolutely dependant in his physical death and resurrection and shed blood. He purchased the salvation that believers know inwardly and he is the life in the heart. The Word was made flesh and sksobdwells I all believers this is the word of His grace

2 Corinthians 5 - 16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

Romans 8 - 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

These passages of Scripture are written in respect to those whose mode of being is characterized by enslavement in the carnal "passions". Those who are slaves of sin are "of the flesh". No one should ever read into these sayings a dualism that pits the "spiritual/conceptual" against the "physical/material" aspects of redeemed humanity. God redeemed physical matter when He "became flesh", thereby restoring it as the means of both spiritual and physical Communion with Him. It is not just the spirit of men that Communes with God, as if the body is somehow not a part of this Communion. It is the whole man, both body and soul, that is effected by the grace (uncreated energy) of God. This interpretation of these Scriptural passages only affirms that you are a dualist, cemented in the man-made tradition of the radical reformation, and implicitly denying that God came in the flesh to restore physical creation to its originally intended purpose before the fall. The use of physical matter to effect spiritual and physical Communion with God is in the Church's nature. It is taught by the Master, Jesus Christ.