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Saved by faith alone?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by franklin, Aug 13, 2002.

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  1. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    True, eternal life is a gift. Faith is required. But also, faith without works is dead.

    One's faith without obedience to God, is dead.

    And he has commanded us to preach the good news to all the nations.

    It is obvious who is and who isn't displaying true faith.
     
  2. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +38
    Jehovahs Witness
    If by this you meant Noah was not saved by Faith alone, but faith accompanied by works, then this was a very good illustration and in complete harmony with the inspired truth that God had James write into scripture.


    “YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. In the same manner was not also Ra'hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead”. (James 2:24-26)
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "If that were the case, why does the text not say"

    Because the basis of the passage is encouragement, not explaining the details of what jews already knew, ie rewards in the "afterlife" :)

    "I suppose it would just simplify things too much to take it for what it says, ay? "

    I'm taking it exactly what it says, in context. I pointed out earlier in the passage that explains it.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
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    "If by this you meant Noah was not saved by Faith alone, but faith accompanied by works, then this was a very good illustration and in complete harmony with the inspired truth that God had James write into scripture. "

    Exactly, as a dog is acompanied by barking, but he doesn't have to bark to be a dog.
     
  5. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

    336
    +0
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Paul is explict, it is by Grace THROUGH faith that a man is saved--the works are an outgrowth of that faith, not the reverse
     
  6. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +38
    Jehovahs Witness
    LOL.

    Fortunately for us James Illustrations are inspired of God, relevant and teach the truth.

    James 2:24-26 "YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. In the same manner was not also Ra'hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

    For salvation you need both.
     
  7. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I would like to share a snipit of something  I wrote to a friend on this topic.

    David, I began to think over our conversation we had the other day andrealized that you contradicted yourself. I will try and keep this short. You stated over and over again either salvation was free or its not. Along this same idea you stated “must a man do something in order to be saved.”  You have condemned your own view by these statements. You said that a man has to have faith in God and believe that Jesus is the son of God. Just as you pointed out, faith alone does not save you as found in James 2. You then said that you have to repent, that is to make the decision that you are going to stop doing those sinful things that are contrary to Gods will.
    Finally you said you must confess Jesus as Lord. Then of course you stated that you were not ready to make baptism necessary for salvation. Now let me show you how you contradicted yourself. Do you realize what you are saying when you say a man should not have to do anything if grace is a free gift?
    You present this idea, but yet you say man has to do something in order to be saved. Perhaps you have never thought about this before. You say that someone has to have faith and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Did you know that faith is a work? See John 6:28-29. How about repenting is that not an act of obedience and also a work? What about confessing Jesus as Lord, is that not an act of obedience and a work? Do you see how you have contradicted yourself? So surely you can see if these things are necessary for one to be saved, that the free gift of salvation does require something on the mans part. Notice James 1:21 The word saves you Eph 2:4-5 Grace saves you Rom 8:24 Hope saves you John 3:16 faith saves you. Rom 10:9-10 Faith and confessing saves you. You agree with all of the above as far as I remember.


    Do you remember the story of Noah and the ark? Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became their of the righteousness which is by faith.
    Noah had obedience to the faith. God told him what to do and he did it even though he had never seen rain. So he and his family were saved because of this obedience of faith. Now notice 1Peter 3: 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
     21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    Do you see the clearness of this David? In the same way that Noah through the obedience of faith was saved from the wicked people of the earth by water we to are saved by the obedience of faith in baptism. We are not just getting wet and getting physically clean, no it is by our faith in the working of God that we know that we are being united with Christ in baptism in the likeness of his death having our sins washed away.
    Col 2: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
     13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


    Baptism is also an act of obedience. What makes baptism different than anyof these other acts of obedience that you say one must do to be saved? As you struggle with this please study the following verses. Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, Gal 3:27, Rom 6: 3-8, John 3:5. 1Cor 12:13, 1Peter 3:21 There are more but that is plenty.


    You seem to misunderstand the differece of works of the law and works of obedience.

    Rom 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

    rom 6:17 But God be thanked that <I>though </I>you were slaves of sin, yet you <B>obeyed </B>from the heart that <B>form </B>of <B>doctrine </B>to which you were delivered.

    jn 15:10 "If you <B>keep My </B>commandments, you will abide in <B>My love,</B> just as I have kept <B>My </B>Father's commandments and abide in His <B>love.</B>luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'? 9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our <B>duty </B>to do.' "

    In the OT God would give someone a victory over an enemy. But man always had to do his part. Jerico was given to Joshaua but he and his people had to march around those walls and on the right day shout and play the trumpets. Then even when the wall came down they had to go in and take out the city themselves. You find this to be the theme throughout the bible. God offers the gift, man has to have faith that he will get the gift, but he does not receive the gift until he does his part that God has told him to do.

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  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Fortunately for us James Illustrations are inspired of God, relevant and teach the truth. "

    Again, you're not taking the passage in the context of the WHOLE book. James very clearly spelled that out in the first chapter, something you seem to miss every time you say you must have works to be saved.
     
  9. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

    336
    +0
    However faith comes first always faith for it is by Grace through faith that we are saved---the word through means --by way of-- so it is faith that triggers Grace thusly are we saved. Works follows that faith it is the sign of faith working. James is merely echoing that thought. One must take in the whole of Scripture--you cannot play Scripture thrump. James is addressing those Christains that proclaimed they had faith BUT did not show any fruits of that faith.
     
  10. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    You will have to excuse me as I was told not to post here anymore.
     
  11. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +38
    Jehovahs Witness
    I read in chapter one of James as you suggest this admonition. James 1:22 22 “However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning”.

    James then illustrates how Works of faith are essential. Simply believing is not enough.

    James 2:14-26
    14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16 yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.
    18 Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in God, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “God’s friend.”
    24 YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner was not also Ra'hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
     
  12. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    A faith that produces no works is not a genuine faith at all. It is not a true faith. If one puts their faith in God then the natural outcome is good works. Just like if I love God the natural outcome is that I will obey HIs commandments and thus do good works. For example I love my wife thus I do things for her. But do the good things are not my love itself. And my good works are not my faith and love for God.

    But the question is do we need only faith to be saved or do we need faith plus works. Well first I would say that if it is faith plus works then is someone who can't do any works for God inbetween salvation and death not saved. For example the thief on the cross or many deathbed confessions. Also if it is faith plus works then what about all the scriptures that say salvation is not by works. Paul said this so many times that if it is faith plus works then he is not speaking of the truth.

    I believe the better way of putting it (and I think I have seen it here) in many respects is not faith alone or faith plus works but is faith with works. Now faith alone saves but it is a faith that naturally produces good works. This is because of God's grace. He changes us so that we can choose to do Ggood works. So if there is an oppurtunity for us to do some good works we will do tem. However we are still saved if we do not have the oppurtunity to do a good work.

    Blackhawk

    Oh and simple believing is not enough. Faith and belief as stated in salvation in the Bible is more than just knowing intellectually that Christ is God. It also involves making Him Lord and repenting of your sins. It is actually having faith in God instead of just talking about God.
     
  13. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Works are evidence of a changed heart. Faith without works is wasted faith (dead). salvation comes as a gift by way of Jesus death on a cross. We can't put works in the process of salvation, can we? Why then did Jesus die on a cross?

    Works are God works, not mine, oer we could boast about it. Working for salvation is boasting in a huge way.

    Blessings
     
  14. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I guess you guys agree with my post 107 since not one single person commented on it.
     
  15. PastorGreg

    PastorGreg New Member

    4
    +0
    We are saved by our Faith Alone...however, True Faith will produce works.. therefore we are not saved by our works we are saved by our faith and therefore we produce work. We don't work to get saved we do work because we are saved!
     
  16. Elnaam

    Elnaam Member

    336
    +0
    Dear Cougan your post is kinda long and I am not sure who wrote what. Prehaps you can give your points once again. If you wrote that baptism is necessary for salvation I disagree. Don't forget that the word "baptism" means immersion and that does not neccessarly mean immersion in water.
     
  17. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +38
    Jehovahs Witness
    And why not, it was very good. :)
     
  18. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +38
    Jehovahs Witness
    Mmm, I'm not so sure about "Deathbed Confessions" Although we cannot read the heart the question still arises, what is the motive, could it be just a last minute attempt to save one's life, just in case. Remember "God is not one to be mocked" (Gal 6:7.)

    But I enjoyed the rest of your post and agree with much of what you say.
     
  19. ]

    Here's a question to you and all others who use Eph 2:8,9 out of context.

    Why do you neglect the first&nbsp;seven verses of this chapter?

    If you would study the verses carefully you would not miss what the apostle Paul is teaching about works.&nbsp;
     
  20. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. that is a negative that demonstrates the positive, nonetheless, salvation through loving the truth is clearly declared.

    2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    1Cr 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
    Isn't that interesting now. Faith is of no avail without love.


    Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
     
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