I like this guy! Amen brother Ed! Preach it! Your a breath of fresh air! You too Shelby! I once heard a preacher say the book of James is the proverbs of the NT! How true! so true!
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Saved by faith alone?
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I like this guy! Amen brother Ed! Preach it! Your a breath of fresh air! You too Shelby! I once heard a preacher say the book of James is the proverbs of the NT! How true! so true!
LouisBooth
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".... I think it gives additional support to the case against sola fide."
I'm not sure it does...it is talking about faith to do great deeds, not faith of salvation. Love is at the base of faith alone position. You have faith that he saved you by grace..the grace that springs from his love and that never fades away.
The objections I have is that in the NON faith alone postion, you have to admit that if you 1. commit sucide you can't go to heaven and 2 under the same pretence if you sin right before you die then you can't go to heaven and 3. Christ did not pay for your future sins.
I'm not sure it does...it is talking about faith to do great deeds, not faith of salvation. Love is at the base of faith alone position. You have faith that he saved you by grace..the grace that springs from his love and that never fades away.
The objections I have is that in the NON faith alone postion, you have to admit that if you 1. commit sucide you can't go to heaven and 2 under the same pretence if you sin right before you die then you can't go to heaven and 3. Christ did not pay for your future sins.
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LouisBooth
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To correctly understand the often quoted James chapter 2 you have to first understand James chapter 1, a thing most quoters don't, for it affirms faith alone docterine if the whole book is looked at instead of just one particular passage.
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LouisBooth
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"or anyone who rejects sola fide) have to admit that? "
You loose your salvation by sinning and regain it by repenting. If you die without repenting you have not regained your salvation after death, thus you are condemned (points 1 and 2) and if you always have to repent for your future sins christ did not cover them because they seperate you from your salvation which christ accomplished on the cross. Thus you loose your salvation and that means Christ didn't cover that sin until you repent of it. You have not done so, thus point 3.
You loose your salvation by sinning and regain it by repenting. If you die without repenting you have not regained your salvation after death, thus you are condemned (points 1 and 2) and if you always have to repent for your future sins christ did not cover them because they seperate you from your salvation which christ accomplished on the cross. Thus you loose your salvation and that means Christ didn't cover that sin until you repent of it. You have not done so, thus point 3.
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Ed you made real nice post I'm proud of you. Now just avoid the comments like "trinitarians have no common sense" and so on and you'll earn more of my respect. 
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Originally posted by PrinceJeff
Ed you made real nice post I'm proud of you. Now just avoid the comments like "trinitarians have no common sense" and so on and you'll earn more of my respect.
Hi Jeff!
Did I say that? Anyway, thank you very much. I appreciate that!
Ed
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No problem. You and I do not agree on most things and have not had a history of getting along real well. I think you said something like that once. You know how heated the debates of Christ's nature can get right? Also on who is truly Christian and who isn't. Look back through your old posts and you'll see what I am talking about. Let's take this opportunity since you have been gone a while to start fresh, ok? I would like to be a more charitable Christian especially towards those I disagree with. Take care Ed.
Jeff
I would like to be a more charitable Christian especially towards those I disagree with. Take care Ed.Jeff
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LouisBooth
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"Louis Booth--who in the name of pity told you that?
"
okay, lets look at it, how do you loose your salvation?
"
okay, lets look at it, how do you loose your salvation?
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Blackhawk
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I agree. 1 Corinthians 13 is speaking about doing actions through your spiritual gifts. Chapter 13 is sandwhiched in between two chapters about spiritual gifts. So I would say it is about excercising your spiritual gifts while displaying the fruits of the Spirit. That the acts are nothing without love.
I give you a hearty Amen! Very well said and I praise God for it.
I Jn 4:9-10
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.
(NAU)
I do not know if this has to be. Of course some sin would make you fall out of His grace in this position but it would not have to be suicide. But that sure is a biggy and I would think that it would probably be one for most proponnents of this position.
This is true only if all sin that is not confessed makes you fall away from Christ. I know many think that there is some line that if crossed then you fall away from grace but one sin or just a couple would not make you cross it. So possibly one unconfessed sin would not make you go to hell.
But then this begs a question. When does a person cross this line and what in the Bible speaks about it. I have found no one who can give me scripture that shows when and where you would cross the line after you have been saved. I think that if one could fall away this would be VERY important because we are speaking of our eternal destiny. So to me it rreally suffers because there is no scripture that says "If you commit sin x then you will then lose your salvation"
Again Christ could pay for some of the sins but not all. This makes no sense to me for it seems to me that it would not really be salvation.
But I agree with you Louis that the Non Faith alone position is not a very good one becasue the Bible seems very clear that it is through faith alone by His grace.
And I do not know how the Peace that Passeth all understanding can be had in this view. One can never truly know if one is saved because God is not the one who is upholding the salvation. I trust God but not me. But I am okay with it because I know God will keep my salvation secure. Not because of who I am but because who He is.
So I am secure in my salvation with a healthy fear of God for I know it is only by His grace that I am saved and He does not have to save me. But I know what He is like and I know Nothing will make me fall out of His hand.
blackhawk
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quote:"Of course some sin would make you fall out of His grace in this position"
Actually, sinning causes one to fall into God's grace. And according to Paul the term fallen from grace is when a believer goes back under works/law. The world/Hollywood calls sinning falling from grace, but the Bible states just the opposite.
"Christ did not pay for your future sins."
This statement is illogical if you think about it carefully.
Many Christians think that only their past sins were forgiven when they were saved. But this illogical. Jesus was crucified some 2,000 years ago, so all their sins had to be future then!
Think about it: Suppose John was born again in 1980, Mary in 1990 and Peter in 2000. If only their past sins were forgiven, then it would mean that Christ left out John's sins after 1980 but somehow remembered to bear Mary's sins after 1980, yet forgot to bear her sins after 1990, but bore Peter's sins after 1990, yet only up to 2000. Can you see how ridiculous it sounds, and we are only talking about three people!
Actually, sinning causes one to fall into God's grace. And according to Paul the term fallen from grace is when a believer goes back under works/law. The world/Hollywood calls sinning falling from grace, but the Bible states just the opposite.
"Christ did not pay for your future sins."
This statement is illogical if you think about it carefully.
Many Christians think that only their past sins were forgiven when they were saved. But this illogical. Jesus was crucified some 2,000 years ago, so all their sins had to be future then!
Think about it: Suppose John was born again in 1980, Mary in 1990 and Peter in 2000. If only their past sins were forgiven, then it would mean that Christ left out John's sins after 1980 but somehow remembered to bear Mary's sins after 1980, yet forgot to bear her sins after 1990, but bore Peter's sins after 1990, yet only up to 2000. Can you see how ridiculous it sounds, and we are only talking about three people!
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Losing your salvation, boy that's a tough one. How can someone who's born again be unborn? If God begins the work in you, we must be confident that He will finish it. If unrepented sin meant eternal damnation then I'm sure the vast majority of us would be in deep trouble. I'm sure I forgot a sin or two somewhere. But I know that it is God that preserves me, not myself or my works.
Next, let me expound briefly on the sola fide doctrine. Sola fide does not mean that we are saved by faith alone, it goes deeper than that. The reformers proclaimed sola gracia, sola fide, and soli Christo. Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone!
No one of these three components can come without the other two. That would be impossible. Faith is a GIFT of God. Faith does not come naturally in man. Faith is a gift of God's grace. Without His sovereign grace, we could have no faith. Therefor sola fide must be taken with sola gracia, and without soli Christo, neither of these two would be possible.
The reformers coined the sola fide faith as a protest to catholic doctrines of work based salvation. They wanted to make it clear that salvation was not of works, but the gift of God.
It is very important in the proper understanding of this position to understand that sola fide adherants believe that God is the source of faith, not man. Man is depraved in nature and could not choose to have faith apart from God's working in them.
If you take sola fide as it was originally proclaimed, from my study, it is not an invalid argument. You must know that is faith alone, but not a faith that is alone. It must be accompanied by grace and by the cross.
Soli Deo gloria!
Next, let me expound briefly on the sola fide doctrine. Sola fide does not mean that we are saved by faith alone, it goes deeper than that. The reformers proclaimed sola gracia, sola fide, and soli Christo. Grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone!
No one of these three components can come without the other two. That would be impossible. Faith is a GIFT of God. Faith does not come naturally in man. Faith is a gift of God's grace. Without His sovereign grace, we could have no faith. Therefor sola fide must be taken with sola gracia, and without soli Christo, neither of these two would be possible.
The reformers coined the sola fide faith as a protest to catholic doctrines of work based salvation. They wanted to make it clear that salvation was not of works, but the gift of God.
It is very important in the proper understanding of this position to understand that sola fide adherants believe that God is the source of faith, not man. Man is depraved in nature and could not choose to have faith apart from God's working in them.
If you take sola fide as it was originally proclaimed, from my study, it is not an invalid argument. You must know that is faith alone, but not a faith that is alone. It must be accompanied by grace and by the cross.
Soli Deo gloria!
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Blackhawk
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Just a note of clarification. I was not pointing out my views but of some others. I do not believe that there is a line that we can cross when we will lose our salvation. Just wanted to make it clear. I believe in OSAS.
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So are we turning this into an OSAS debate? Okay. I believe that it would entail a gradual hardening of one's heart due to unrepented sin. (I think the Scritures clearly spell this out)- I don't think it would happen because a person commits one or two sins. That's ridiculous because each of us sin every day.
Michelle
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I think I have to agree with you ms Shelby, this is beginning to take this thread that I origianlly posted under "Saved by Faith Alone" off track and off topic and turning it into a discussion on once saved always saved. So maybe I'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth, guys and gals, let's stay on the topic please.
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Matthew 25
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
It doesn't appear that Jesus taught sola fide.
Michelle
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
It doesn't appear that Jesus taught sola fide.
Michelle
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LouisBooth
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" I believe that it would entail a gradual hardening of one's heart due to unrepented sin"
this is the subject. I am in the process of eliminating the other posiblity, so its quite on topic.
okay, so its a gradual thing? Where do you see that scripturally? The gradual thing, I don't see it. If it is gradual, how long does it take? How much repentance is needed? I don't understand how it can be gradual at all. Either you repent or you don't. You're judus or you're a peter.
this is the subject. I am in the process of eliminating the other posiblity, so its quite on topic.
okay, so its a gradual thing? Where do you see that scripturally? The gradual thing, I don't see it. If it is gradual, how long does it take? How much repentance is needed? I don't understand how it can be gradual at all. Either you repent or you don't. You're judus or you're a peter.
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LouisBooth
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"It doesn't appear that Jesus taught sola fide."
yeah he did...The book of matthew was written to a specific audience and thus is structured a different way. now if you want to look at what makes a sheep..lets check out what he says to John when he was SPECIFICALLY talking about salvation, not where he is discussing the end of time okay?
what saves you? BELIEF John 3:18 what condemns you? Not believing, same verse. Pretty easy to get
This passage is essential to understanding what Jesus ment when he spoke about salvation. Here we have a man specifically asking about salvation, and Christ answers him quite simply, "just believe."
yeah he did...The book of matthew was written to a specific audience and thus is structured a different way. now if you want to look at what makes a sheep..lets check out what he says to John when he was SPECIFICALLY talking about salvation, not where he is discussing the end of time okay?
what saves you? BELIEF John 3:18 what condemns you? Not believing, same verse. Pretty easy to get
This passage is essential to understanding what Jesus ment when he spoke about salvation. Here we have a man specifically asking about salvation, and Christ answers him quite simply, "just believe."
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