Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[MDC]

Why does the requirement we are given over and over again in scripture-belief-somehow merit salvation? It doesn't. God is merciful to us, he does open the eyes of our heart. That doesn't mean we can't refuse his mercy. It doesn't mean we can't harden our hearts against him. Faith is not a work. We are saved by grace, (God does all the work) through faith, (which is simply trusting him to do the work) we are not saved by works, unless you are talking about God's work. The idea that this somehow lessons grace, because we merely say "Yes" to the One pulling us out of the pit is silly.

Not quite sure how you view salvation as an act of Gods merciful grace when you believe your cooperation is needed. Your hate for the doctrine of unconditional election proves what I’m saying

 

[Loren T.]

Not quite sure how you view salvation as an act of Gods merciful grace when you believe your cooperation is needed. Your hate for the doctrine of unconditional election proves what I’m saying

Very simple, God tells us we have to cooperate with grace in order to be saved. "By grace you have been saved, through faith.
What is faith?
1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. 2This is why the ancients were commended. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.…
Why were the ancients commended? For having faith.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Do you really mean to tell me they were commended for something that was irrestiably given to them?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So Gods grace is merited? So God foresees whether a sinner is genuine in his “choice” and actions as being the basis for receiving this (subsequent) grace? How is this not works salvation? Did you just not flip the meaning of grace on its head? Titus 3:4-7. Faith itself is the result of being regenerated and saved by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ. How can a spiritually dead sinner go against his own nature apart from God graciously being merciful to him by opening his heart to receive the gospel of Christ? Prevenient grace according to free will theology = NO grace at all

I understand you disagree. I agree that God's grace is an absolute necessity for salvation and without God's grace, anything I do is at best filthy rags. Anything I do, apart from God's grace is wholly insufficient. But, God, by His choice not mine, decided that His Grace was going to be absolutely and preveniently necessary, but not sufficient. God by His choice decided that I had to choose to accept it.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So Gods grace is merited? So God foresees whether a sinner is genuine in his “choice” and actions as being the basis for receiving this (subsequent) grace? How is this not works salvation? Did you just not flip the meaning of grace on its head? Titus 3:4-7. Faith itself is the result of being regenerated and saved by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ. How can a spiritually dead sinner go against his own nature apart from God graciously being merciful to him by opening his heart to receive the gospel of Christ? Prevenient grace according to free will theology = NO grace at all

MDC, Do you believe that Christ dying on the Cross was absolutely necessary for anyone to be saved? Because I do.

Do you believe that without Christ dying on the Cross that you, through any decisions you could make, could have been good enough to save yourself? Because I don't believe I could have been.

Do you believe there is anyone in Scripture--including Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Joseph, Isaiah, Elijah, Job (anyone)--who could have been saved had God not made that absolutely necessary sacrifice? Because I don't.

So, as I have stated, if it weren't for God's absolutely amazing act of grace--the sacrifice of His only begotten Son on the Cross, nobody could have been saved. It would not have mattered what choices we had made, we could not have been saved--even those who were before the Law or without the Law. Nobody could be good enough to stand before a Holy God! Even if I made a lot of good choices, I could never make enough good choices.

The idea of works salvation is that I can be good enough to be saved, apart from God's help, right?

I don't believe I can be.

 

[royal priest]

But, I don't read Ephesians 2 that way. I don't believe God randomly decides who He is going to give the grace to see Him to. I believe God provides the prevenient grace to all to choose Him, but only those who will choose Him in the end (Based on His full foreknowledge of their life demonstrating the real choice they made with regard to Him not the immediately in-time often-emotional decision of a person) are given the subsequent grace of being born again by God.

Contrary to what some will claim, that doesn't make this a works salvation. I can't boast. Without God's major Gifts, I would still be dead in my trespasses and sins like everyone else. I couldn't have even made the choice without God giving me the grace to see Him and thereby choose Him. But, God doesn't give people His Word and His Spirit to walk like the rest of the world. His Word and His Spirit are not insufficient nor are they lacking effectiveness to do what God sends them out to do. For those who are truly His, not just professing to be for a season, He will accomplish their full salvation with their cooperation.

We read it the same. God gives the grace to choose Him to those whom will ultimately choose Him.

 

[Pneuma3]

I believe the Scriptures. I also believe I have the witness of the Spirit talked about in Romans 8:16.

I was just explaining this to another, so here is what I believe:

I don't believe God randomly decides who He is going to give the grace to see Him to. I believe God provides the prevenient grace to all to be able to choose Him, but only those who will choose Him in the end (based on His full foreknowledge of their life demonstrating the real choice they made with regard to Him not the immediately in-time often-emotional decision of a person) are given the subsequent grace of being born again by God. In time, it may look instantaneous, like "I made a decision and was born again." But, God isn't in time and He already knows our ending. There are many who made a similar decision to mine that will have looked every bit like me for a season, but then will walk permanently away from the faith for whatever reason. If the gifts and calling of God are truly without repentance (or not revoked) as we are told in Romans 11:29, then you can't become unsaved. And, if saving simply made in a one-time momentary decision, then, even if someone renounces God a moment later, God's salvation wouldn't be taken away and they would be bound by their one-time decision. I don't believe that. I believe God wants willing worshippers and isn't desperate to fill heaven with people who pastors and evangelists manipulated once-upon-a-time, but who don't really want Him.

Contrary to what some will claim, that doesn't make this a works salvation. I can't boast. Without God's major Gifts, I would still be dead in my trespasses and sins like everyone else. I couldn't have even made the choice without God giving me the grace to see Him and thereby choose Him. But, God doesn't give people His Word and His Spirit to walk like the rest of the world. His Word and His Spirit are not insufficient nor are they lacking effectiveness to do what God sends them out to do. For those who are truly His, not just professing to be for a season, He will accomplish their full salvation with their cooperation.​

That does not really answer my question Johnny so let me rephrase it as you are looking at this from where you are now and not from where you came from. ie a sinner



Do you believe that from eternity past that God foreknew you as an individual and predestinated you as an individual to be saved?

If so why you and not everyone else?

For myself I believe all are predestined to be in Christ but everyone in their own order.

 

[Pneuma3]

We read it the same. God gives the grace to choose Him to those whom will ultimately choose Him.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. what choice is there if one is predestined to make a choice?

 

[royal priest]

That makes absolutely no sense to me. what choice is there if one is predestined to make a choice?

The choice lies in the exercise of the understanding, will, and affections. Regardless of persuasion whether by the primary cause of God or a myriad of secondary causes.

 

[Bobber]

Why does the requirement we are given over and over again in scripture-belief-somehow merit salvation? It doesn't. God is merciful to us, he does open the eyes of our heart. That doesn't mean we can't refuse his mercy. It doesn't mean we can't harden our hearts against him. Faith is not a work. We are saved by grace, (God does all the work) through faith, (which is simply trusting him to do the work) we are not saved by works, unless you are talking about God's work. The idea that this somehow lessons grace, because we merely say "Yes" to the One pulling us out of the pit is silly.

Not to mention that Calvinists in the real world would never apply the same principles or reasoning they do as when they come over to God. They say that if one claims they've believed and received and God acted that's somehow being some type of works salvation. It's all got to be God. Well Salvation is all of God but their way of reasoning is absurd.

If someone gave one an inheritance and they were responsible to go to the lawyer and sign on to receive it would they say they're not going? Would they say the one who gave the inheritance has got to pick me up in the car, drive me to the lawyers, carry me in the office and move my hand with the pen? "Well I don't want anybody to say I did anything to merit it?"

My point is Calvinists don't think anything like that about whatever else in life and they'd call it crazy if they heard one slow walked their inheritance because they didn't want to do what it took to accept it. But why not? Why couldn't someone say well you had to sign the documents so you did something to merit it? The dearly departed loved one would probably wish they never gave it to them in the first place to hear talk that they felt they did something to merit it by merely signing on to it.

 

[Pneuma3]

The choice lies in the exercise of the understanding, will, and affections. Regardless of persuasion whether by the primary cause of God or a myriad of secondary causes.

I get that but if one is predestinated to make that choice then they could not have chosen otherwise.

 

[royal priest]

I get that but if one is predestinated to make that choice then they could not have chosen otherwise.

Are you suggesting if God had forseen that not even a single person had made the "choice", then Jesus would have died in vain?

 

[bling]

Grace = unmerited favor. Free will = merited favor = works.

What the Father did for the prodigal son was totally unmerited favor, mercy, Love, forgiveness, pure charity and it would not detract one measure from the father's Love "if" the son made a free will choice to return for selfish reasons.

 

[bling]

I have never made such a claim and neither does the bible. John makes it clear, "If we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not in us."

Read 258 again. All of it. Especially the last clause, "but the Old man is still able to sin, and does."

Paul tells us:
Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

So using the one verse explanation system:

How can a crucified old self, Paul says "done away with" so we are "no longer be slaves to sin" be still able to sin through us?

Paul goes on to say:
Ephesians 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
This sure sounds like it is still up to us and Paul is instructing us and it is us who must "put off our old self", which you are saying we do not do so is that by our own free will choice to not put off old self?

 

[Dave L]

What the Father did for the prodigal son was totally unmerited favor, mercy, Love, forgiveness, pure charity and it would not detract one measure from the father's Love "if" the son made a free will choice to return for selfish reasons.

This is not how salvation works. Where do you hear mention of an atonement? Or faith? It is simply an illustration of one "already a son" seeking to repent.

 

[royal priest]

I get that but if one is predestinated to make that choice then they could not have chosen otherwise.

His determination does not remove our exercise to say no to one thing and yes to another.

 

[bling]

This is not how salvation works. Where do you hear mention of an atonement? Or faith? It is simply an illustration of one "already a son" seeking to repent.

Answer the question, I am using the prodigal son story as an illustration and something we have all read.

 

[Dave L]

Answer the question, I am using the prodigal son story as an illustration and something we have all read.

But it's not how salvation works.

 

[bling]

But it's not how salvation works.

The three parables go together (lost coin, lost sheep, lost boy) 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons.... 1. they are said together with this introduction Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Is the lost boy giving you trouble, since he is making what appears to be a free will choice?
Is the Father not represent God the Father?
You can still just address the question?

 

[Dave L]

The three parables go together (lost coin, lost sheep, lost boy) 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons.... 1. they are said together with this introduction Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Is the lost boy giving you trouble, since he is making what appears to be a free will choice?
Is the Father not represent God the Father?
You can still just address the question?

People cannot repent unless they are saved. The flesh cannot stop being the flesh.

 

[Tayla]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

Neither. You are saved based on your choice to receive God's gift of salvation.