Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Dave L]

Free will = salvation by faith. I thought you had this figured out by finally understanding John 15:1-10. How can the apostles fail to remain in Christ if they don’t have free will? Is it The Father’s will if they don’t remain?

“for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

 

[Dave L]

Amen brother. He’s telling His apostles if they don’t remain in Him He won’t remain in them and The Father will cut them off from Jesus and cast them into the fire.

No, he's encouraging them to continue in his love, showing what happens to any not born again.
“But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.” (Matthew 15:13)

 

[Loren T.]

Why did Jesus tell the man with the withered hand to stretch it forth?

You just refuted your own argument.

 

[Dave L]

You just refuted your own argument.

Faith without works is dead....

 

[BNR32FAN]

The flesh cannot repent. It is what it is. Only after the new birth do we have an option for repentance into holiness.

Being born again is a metaphor for repentance or metanoia. Metanoia is s change of mind, heart, or way of life. It is turning away from sin and towards God. The moment someone turns to God they are born again being a new creation. Their old life is dead and they have become a new creation in Christ thru the Holy Spirit. That’s why in the Bible you will never see anyone say be born again then repent. You will however see the apostles say repent and be baptized.

 

[MDC]

Grace = unmerited favor. Free will = merited favor = works.

Giving God all the glory in salvation is something that mighty idol of free will cannot do

 

[BNR32FAN]

“for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

Yes it’s called the Holy Spirit brother. However the Bible gives many examples that a person can disobey they Holy Spirit and turn away from God. Hebrews 6:4 is just one example as well as John 15:1-10.

 

[Dave L]

Yes it’s called the Holy Spirit brother. However the Bible gives many examples that a person can disobey they Holy Spirit and turn away from God. Hebrews 6:4 is just one example as well as John 15:1-10.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[Dave L]

Being born again is a metaphor for repentance or metanoia. Metanoia is s change of mind, heart, or way of life. It is turning away from sin and towards God. The moment someone turns to God they are born again being a new creation. Their old life is dead and they have become a new creation in Christ thru the Holy Spirit. That’s why in the Bible you will never see anyone say be born again then repent. You will however see the apostles say repent and be baptized.

The new birth precedes faith and repentance.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, he's encouraging them to continue in his love, showing what happens to any not born again.
“But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.” (Matthew 15:13)

Jesus was not talking about someone else. He said the word YOU to His apostles 15 times. YOU must remain in Me. He also says ANYONE (including the apostles) who does not remain in Me will be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire. When someone is talking to you and they say the word YOU they are not referring to someone else. How can you not see this? Let me post it here for you because I really don’t think your actually reading it.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

The new birth precedes faith and repentance.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

Yup he doesn’t say he must then repent does he? No because being born again is a metaphor for repentance. It’s the same thing. Please tell me what is the difference between being born again and repentance?

 

[Dave L]

Yup he doesn’t say he must then repent does he? No because being born again is a metaphor for repentance. It’s the same thing. Please tell me what is the difference between being born again and repentance?

No, born again = born from above. Repentance = 3341. μετάνοια mĕtanŏia, met-an´-oy-ah: from 3340; (subj.) compunction (for guilt, includ. reformation); by impl. reversal (of [another’s] decision):—repentance.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 47). Bellingham, WA:

 

[Dave L]

Yes it’s called the Holy Spirit brother. However the Bible gives many examples that a person can disobey they Holy Spirit and turn away from God. Hebrews 6:4 is just one example as well as John 15:1-10.

“For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Giving God all the glory in salvation is something that mighty idol of free will cannot do

Then how is it that the child of God is victorious and overcomes the world if the child has done nothing?

 

[Bobber]

The flesh cannot repent. It is what it is. Only after the new birth do we have an option for repentance into holiness.

This is absolutely forcing words into a mode which you think you have a right to do but most certainly don't. The human spirit IS NOT FLESH. The human spirit is not a nature.

The human spirit has come under bondage to a type of nature but as it comes into illumination it can make a choice to receive God's Spirit or stay in the darkness. It is not forced to, made to or being controlled by Calvinistic irresistible grace. And to say one is born again before one repents is ludicrous.

The Bible says the word of God, the gospel is the power of God which provides salvation. 1 Pt 1:23 talks about being born again and it says it comes about by the word of God itself!

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Pt 1:23

Mark 4 talks about the "Sower Sows The Word" Which means the farmer plants the seed OR the preacher preaches the word.

Calvinists put forth that God is somehow working on people without the word to get them born again but they're putting this as born again before they're even instructed to repent! .....They're calling the preaching of the word the thing to cause people to repent but have them born again before they actually do so! No justification for this way of thinking except to force words into modes to defend their beliefs.

The preaching of the gospel which is the hearing of the actual words of life produces the new birth, not some metaphysical non-word influence. I will say this that God probably does work behind the scene in many people's lives to prepare their hearts to maybe be more receptive to the word of God but that is not by any means being born again before repentance. Repentance leads to born again not born again to repentance!

 

[TCassidy]

Reality says otherwise.

What is more authoritative, your perception of reality or the Inspired, Inerrant word of God?

 

[TCassidy]

The human spirit has come under bondage to a type of nature but as it comes into illumination it can make a choice to receive God's Spirit or stay in the darkness.

1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[TCassidy]

So Mr. Cassidy, you are talking in circles here.

No, I'm not.

On one hand you say that when we are in bondage to sin

God's word says the lost are in bondage to sin.

we are unable to surrender to Him

Correct.

the Bible says that we don't want to

Correct.

which you know violates your stated belief that we can't.

Nope. We can't because we don't want to.

Then you say once God does the work, we are in bondage to Him.

No, God's word says that, not me. We were slaves to sin with our only nature, that of the fallen "old" man. After salvation we have a new nature that cannot sin, but the old nature is still there causing trouble, as usual.

we should be UNABLE to sin any more

The New man is unable to sin (1 John 3:6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sin has not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.) but the Old man is still able to sin, and does.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, I'm not.

God's word says the lost are in bondage to sin.

Correct.

Correct.

Nope. We can't because we don't want to.

No, God's word says that, not me. We were slaves to sin with our only nature, that of the fallen "old" man. After salvation we have a new nature that cannot sin, but the old nature is still there causing trouble, as usual.

The New man is unable to sin (1 John 3:6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sin has not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.) but the Old man is still able to sin, and does.

What Christian doesn’t still sin?

 

[TCassidy]

What Christian doesn’t still sin?

Read my post 258, above.