Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[BNR32FAN]

Why did so many no longer walk with him in hearing what he said?

John 15 takes place long after John 6. Only the 11 apostles accompanied Him to Gethsemane

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why did so many no longer walk with him in hearing what he said?

Something else to consider

“But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64‬ ‭

Now that we have established that Jesus knew who believed, why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles whom He knew believed to remain in Him? Why would he say remain in Me if they cannot turn away from Him?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hopefully brother Dave’s slow response is an indication he is going back to do more study.

 

[Dave L]

Something else to consider

“But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64‬ ‭

Now that we have established that Jesus knew who believed, why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles whom He knew believed to remain in Him? Why would he say remain in Me if they cannot turn away from Him?

Why did the many walk away if he spoke only to the 11?

 

[Dave L]

John 15 takes place long after John 6. Only the 11 apostles accompanied Him to Gethsemane

Many no longer walked with him after hearing Jesus presenting the doctrine of election.

 

[Dave L]

Romans 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Faith is indeed a fruit of the Spirit, but faith comes by hearing the Word of God, otherwise Paul is a liar according to you.

According to your logic, a person can have neither love, nor joy, nor gentleness, nor meekness, nor temperance if they weren't first born of God, because all of those are fruits of the Spirit alongside faith. Yet we know that unbelievers hold those traits.

However, it is indeed true that once we are saved, once sealed with Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) after hearing and trusting the gospel of Christ, we continue to grow in faith.

It is indisputable that according to Romans 10:14 that those who haven't heard the word of God cannot believe. And those who believe, who receive Christ, are the only ones that become born of God (John 1:12-13).

Your argument makes no sense, ever, and yet you continue to strive against everyone pridefully.

Faith (Faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. No getting around it. The word focuses or faithfulness.

 

[Dave L]

So why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles remain in Me if they cannot turn away from Him?

He was just asking, challenging their faith.

 

[Dave L]

Who was Jesus speaking to in John 15?

More important, who was he speaking of?

 

[Loren T.]

The gospel saves us from the perils of sin we might remain ignorant of otherwise.

No, the gospel saves people who are lost, if they repent.

…17the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written: 18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed,

Luke 5:31Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance

 

[Dave L]

No, the gospel saves people who are lost, if they repent.

…17the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written: 18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed,

Luke 5:31Jesus answered, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance

Jesus saves, the gospel tells people about it. It saves in a secondary sense because it is true and the truth sets us free.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why did the many walk away if he spoke only to the 11?

Your confusing John 6 with John 15. We’re talking about John 15 which takes place right after the last supper on the way to the olive grove in Gethsemane.

 

[Dave L]

Your confusing John 6 with John 15. We’re talking about John 15 which takes place right after the last supper on the way to the olive grove in Gethsemane.

“And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” (John 6:65–66)

 

[BNR32FAN]

More important, who was he speaking of?

Well let’s examine the context.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Seeing how only His 11 faithful apostles are present and Jesus says “You” 15 times I think it is pretty obvious who He is referring to. Did you read the scriptures before asking who Jesus was referring to? I can’t understand how that would be questionable.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” (John 6:65–66)

This is completely irrelevant to John 15. John 6:64 as I’ve already pointed out specifically states Jesus knew who didn’t believe from the beginning. They left because they didn’t believe. There is no doubt that the faithful 11 apostles believed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” (John 6:65–66)

That is still completely irrelevant as to why Jesus warned the 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him. There is no question that these men believed.

 

[Dave L]

That is still completely irrelevant as to why Jesus warned the 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him. There is no question that these men believed.

Please post your reference so I'm sure what you are talking about.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Free will needs something to react to. So people take the announcement "whosoever believes" and turn it into law saying instead "whosoever chooses to believe".

You have a warped view of "The Law". And, it isn't the Old Testament. It was in the New Testament that Jesus spoke that.

If you hear the gospel and believe it, just like you believe the chair you are sitting in is real, it needs no act of the will.

That is not a good analogy, to support your point. Even if I don't believe the chair I am sitting in, exists, it still exists. It isn't any less or more real, because I choose to believe or not. But, if I don't believe it exists, I not only won't sit in the chair, I don't even believe there is a chair there. Instead, I believe you are loopy. You can tell me to sit all you want and if I don't have confidence the chair exists, I would be a fool to sit in it.

Likewise, the Gospel (Good News) is real--whether you or I or any other person believes it is real or not. But, just like that chair, if people aren't willing to make the choice to sit in it--even though it is real--it won't be used. God chose to give us that choice, because God wants willing worshippers who will CHOOSE to not only to accept what He said but who will CHOOSE to invest faith that even when His chair seems hidden, we know it is still there and ACT on that belief. God even helps us with that; but God doesn't make us choose Him.

But here is where many become confused. If you choose to believe, it is because you already believe, or you would not choose to believe. So God already saved them before they chose to believe. Whosoever believes has eternal life.

That is a textbook example of circular reasoning.

Choosing to believe/Accepting God's grace is an attitude. Most people who are choosing to believe would tell you, if you listened, that we could not earn our salvation. If God didn't decide to save some humans and God didn't provide a way and God didn't nudge us here or there, we'd be toast like everyone else. BUT GOD...and therefore my choice matters. If not for God, I can try to save myself from His wrath with all I have, and I can't. I will never, apart from what God did for me, be able to make all my choices in a way to avoid hell--even if I make a few of them correctly here and there. Apart from choosing to accept what God offered, I can't will or choose to get into heaven or have eternal life with Him. I have no power to do that. As a human, apart from His action, I just cannot choose to give myself that grace. But, God can and did. He's the one who turns my corruptible into incorruptible--no amount of willful choices allows me to do that independently of the God who will transform my body in the blink of an eye. He's the One who gives me the Blood to put on my doorposts and the One who gives me His Holy Spirit to serve as my guarantee, my counselor, my comforter, and my guide. He just said I have to choose to genuinely believe to enter in.

Works mentality is a completely different entity. It says I can be good enough that God will owe me salvation and heaven. Works mentality suggests that I am checking all the blocks and therefore God owes it to me that He not only saves me from His wrath, but graces me with His presence and knowledge of Him eternally.

According to God, He looks at the heart.

100% depravity looks like satan and the demons. It looks like those mentioned in 2 Thes 2:10-12. It looks like those before the flood (save Noah and his family) and it looks like old sodom and gemorrah. It looks like those after they take the mark of the beast and worship him. It looks like those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It looks like continually wicked. It doesn't look like every walking human being.

 

[Dave L]

This is completely irrelevant to John 15. John 6:64 as I’ve already pointed out specifically states Jesus knew who didn’t believe from the beginning. They left because they didn’t believe. There is no doubt that the faithful 11 apostles believed.

Let's say they weren't born again and had only "human faith" rooted in the flesh.

 

[Dave L]

You have a warped view of "The Law". And, it isn't the Old Testament. It was in the New Testament that Jesus spoke that.



That is not a good analogy, to support your point. Even if I don't believe the chair I am sitting in, exists, it still exists. It isn't any less or more real, because I choose to believe or not. But, if I don't believe it exists, I not only won't sit in the chair, I don't even believe there is a chair there. Instead, I believe you are loopy. You can tell me to sit all you want and if I don't have confidence the chair exists, I would be a fool to sit in it.

Likewise, the Gospel (Good News) is real--whether you or I or any other person believes it is real or not. But, just like that chair, if people aren't willing to make the choice to sit in it--even though it is real--it won't be used. God chose to give us that choice, because God wants willing worshippers who will CHOOSE to not only to accept what He said but who will CHOOSE to invest faith that even when His chair seems hidden, we know it is still there and ACT on that belief. God even helps us with that; but God doesn't make us choose Him.



That is a textbook example of circular reasoning.

Choosing to believe/Accepting God's grace is an attitude. Most people who are choosing to believe would tell you, if you listened, that we could not earn our salvation. If God didn't decide to save some humans and God didn't provide a way and God didn't nudge us here or there, we'd be toast like everyone else. BUT GOD...and therefore my choice matters. If not for God, I can try to save myself from His wrath with all I have, and I can't. I will never, apart from what God did for me, be able to make all my choices in a way to avoid hell--even if I make a few of them correctly here and there. Apart from choosing to accept what God offered, I can't will or choose to get into heaven or have eternal life with Him. I have no power to do that. As a human, apart from His action, I just cannot choose to give myself that grace. But, God can and did. He's the one who turns my corruptible into incorruptible--no amount of willful choices allows me to do that independently of the God who will transform my body in the blink of an eye. He's the One who gives me the Blood to put on my doorposts and the One who gives me His Holy Spirit to serve as my guarantee, my counselor, my comforter, and my guide. He just said I have to choose to genuinely believe to enter in.

Works mentality is a completely different entity. It says I can be good enough that God will owe me salvation and heaven. Works mentality suggests that I am checking all the blocks and therefore God owes it to me that He not only saves me from His wrath, but graces me with His presence and knowledge of Him eternally.

According to God, He looks at the heart.

100% depravity looks like satan and the demons. It looks like those mentioned in 2 Thes 2:10-12. It looks like those before the flood (save Noah and his family) and it looks like old sodom and gemorrah. It looks like those after they take the mark of the beast and worship him. It looks like those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It looks like continually wicked. It doesn't look like every walking human being.

Any conditions strapped to the gospel make it law/works instead of grace.

 

[Dave L]

Well let’s examine the context.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Seeing how only His 11 faithful apostles are present and Jesus says “You” 15 times I think it is pretty obvious who He is referring to. Did you read the scriptures before asking who Jesus was referring to? I can’t understand how that would be questionable.

Isn't Jesus merely telling them how their relationship with him works?