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Satan is history ?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Catchup, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Thunder : Why do you think they maintain these false beliefs? Are they afraid of the End? I have to admit, sometimes I am a bit nervous. But then I just take a deep breath... let it out ... and trust in my Saviour.

    We seem to be of one mind.

    :) LOVE
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OK Catchup, Lets test that idea:
    Php 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

    Are you expecting Timothy's soon arrival?

    If not, Why not? This passage was preserved as a letter to you right?
    Can you Explain to me why I should not be expecting Timothy to arrive Shortly, when the Bible says I should?

    or how bout this:
    Jos 6:3
    You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days.


    Are you, Catchup, or have you ever heeded this command to "you" to march around the city 6 days? I hear Pricleine.com has some good deals on airfair to get you there so you can obey Gods Command to "You" to march!...Ooops, thats right, that city has long since turned to dust. How are we supposed to obey this command to us to march around it?

    Were these passages written to you and me, or to those who originally recieved the message?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Catchup and Rollin, Christ's blessings and riches be upon you both.

    Parousia 70 has done a great job at showing that the scriptures are not irrelevant and NEVER will be. Never, ever, ever.

    However, as Parousia 70 showed, we are not all getting together around a walled-Jericho to march around it. If we are, I wasn't invited by any of you and feel left out. :) Don't y'all love me?

    Next, there is only ONE endtimes generation. ONLY ONE. That generation was not Moses' generation. It was not David's generation. It was not Malachi's generation. It was not Augustine's generation. It was not Luther's generation. It was not Scofield's generation. IT IS NOT OUR GENERATION. There in only ONE generation that can heed the endtimes commands and the Holy-Ghost-inspired apostles tell us WHICH generation was the last days generation ... THEIR OWN! (Heb 1:1-2; 1 Cor 10:11; Acts 2:15-17; 1 Peter 1:20; James 5:3; Heb 9:26, 1 Jn 2:18-19).

    Therefore Moses and David and Malachi and Augustine and Luther and we should not feel left out just because we did not go through the great tribulation. Rather, we have all benefited BECAUSE of the finished work of Christ and the apostles and because of them have entered into the fullness of inheritance as the sons and daughters of God with fullness of Heaven and earth and the Covenant belonging to Christ and the Church forever and ever, world without end (Eph 3:21).
     
  4. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Rollin' and Catchup :wave:

    I think sometimes you guys are a bit reactionary and jump to extreme conclusions and then espouse teachings to preterism that just aren't so.

    What Parousia 70 and GW are saying is simply this:

    1Cor 10:11 These things happened to "THEM" as examples and were written down as warnings for US, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

    This principle still applies FOR us -that is, the things written TO them. They were fulfilled then as the latter part of the verse says -yet people for ALL time benefit, as God's Word is ageless -that's why the Gospel is ETERNAL.

    It is in futurism that the gospel has a "use-by-date" a "short-shelf-life" a "limited tenure" [i.e., one day it's all gonna end] not so with covenant eschatology.

    davo
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Wait a sec!
    Are you claiming what Paul said was not the word of God? That Pauls testimony was flawed? That the Holy Spirit Lead Paul into "all truth" about everything except this issue?

    It concerns me when you claim that any belief based on Pauls (or any of those who penned the scriptures) testimony is a belief based on man and not on God.

    Please clarify your position here.
     
  6. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    parousia70:

    Wait a sec!
    Are you claiming what Jesus said was not the word of God? That Jesus testimony was flawed? That Jesus knew "all truth" about everything except this issue?

    It concerns me when you claim that any belief based on Pauls (or any of those who penned the scriptures) testimony is a belief that is to take presedence over the words of Jesus.

    Please clarify your position here.

    (1) Maybe you do not know that Jesus was there at the beginning when the Earth was created.

    (2)Or you are telling me that you think Jesus lied. He knew the gospel only needed to be preached to a samll part of the world... but still he said ALL.

    If there is a third choice...let me know.

    :) LOVE
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi RollinTHUNDER,

    I just thought I'd share a bit here, if you don't mind.

     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Of course not LOL! Jesus' words are true. Don't be silly.

    They do not take precident over the words of Jesus, they ARE the words of Jesus!

    Jesus said The Gospel would be preached to all the world, and Then Jesus, through Paul, 30 some odd years after He gave the prophesy, confirms that The Gospel in fact had been preached throughout all the world, to all nations to every creature under heaven!

    I simply choose to believe Gods word in it's entirety.

    (1) Maybe you do not know that Jesus is God, and the Bible is Gods word. All of it!
    (even Pauls testimony)

    (2)Or you are telling me that you think Jesus did not speak through Paul, that Paul spake for himself alone. That we should simply dismiss those passages as "not" Gods word, but the words of man.

    If there is a third choice...let me know.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  9. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Catchup,

    If that's the case, then we should be following these commands:

    "march around the city seven times" (Joshua 6:4). Are we expecting to believe that Rahab, the prostitue lives to this day?

    "But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho-and she lives among the Israelites to this day. (Joshua 6:25)

    I don't know why anyone would believe that she still exists.

    Do the people of Geshur and Maacah live to this day? (Joshua 13:13) What about the Jebusites (Joshua 15:63)? Or the Canaanites? (Joshua 16:10) Does the city of Luz still exist to this day? (Judges 1:26) How about the tomb of David (Acts 2:29)?

    I don't say this to mock anyone, but audience relevance is important, otherwise people would read passages like Genesis 22:2 and think "God wants me to kill my child". I heard something like that happened to a brother in China, because of he wasn't educated in God's word. Sad isn't it?

    I firmly believe that God speaks to us using the Bible. But the fact is, audience relevance is really really important.
     
  10. davo

    davo Member

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    Bravo Hoon! good to see you mate :wave:

    davo
     
  11. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hello again Catchup,

    I just want to share about myself. In no way am I afraid of 'the end'. I believe the 'end' you're referring to is some end of the world. I don't see it that way. I believe there is no end of the world. Here's my scriptural reasoning:

    Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 145:13; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Isa. 9:7; Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21)

    Why do I maintain this view? Because it gives a VERY positive outlook on the world. It's (in my opinion) biblically accurate. The preterist implications of what I can experience (from a preterist perspective, not a futurist perspective) is simply amazing! Preterism highly emphasizes the advancement of kingdom of God, which is exactly what Jesus probably meant when he said, "seek first the kingdom" (Matthew 6:33). It also emphasizes the realities of the New Covenant, where there are many wonderful blessings! =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  12. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    There is no more point in this discussion. You are wrong but you only see and hear what you choose. I will continue to wait and be ready when my Saviour arrives. Hope you don't miss out running back to fill your lamp. :rolleyes:


    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Revelation 21:1-5 AV)

    Evil still thrives. Just look around you. You see diseases, death, murder, economic oppression, genocide, hate, pride, fornication, adultery, etc. The list goes on and on. But of course you do not wish to belief these verses of scripture.

    In 2 Peter 3, Simon Peter compares the future destruction of this world by fire to the worldwide flood of Noah. God destroyed all evil by a flood of real, wet water. He will destroy it again by a real, hot fire. It is contrary to God’s holiness for Him to allow evil to persist forever, which is what full Preterists are suggesting.

    You do not need to respond. I am leaving you with the covers over your head. I wonder though, will you awake when Jesus comes or will you choose to ignore him also as you do so many promises that he has made?

    :wave: Love
     
  13. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Catchup,

    First, I just want to let you know I don't debate for the purpose of debating. It's meaningless. The board is under the category 'congregation and edification'. I'm here to edify, not to tear apart others. I was merely sharing what I believe about scripture. If I'm wrong, then may God rebuke me. If you're wrong, may God rebuke you. The fact is, I make mistakes and sometimes I'm not aware of them. I'm sure we all make the same mistakes without being aware. But I'm here to shed light on the preterist view. You don't have to agree with it, but as a brother in Christ, I figured I might as well share a bit about preterism, since you asked the question about why we maintain these "false" beliefs.

    If we, preterists, are wrong then please explains these passages:

    Gen 8:21-22, Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 145:13; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Isa. 9:7; Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21

    My favorite verse among these is Eccl 1:4 which simply says:

    "Generations come and generations go,
    but the earth remains forever."

    As for the existence of evil, I firmly agree that evil exists. I said earlier that evil would exist in the age to come (Revelation 22:17) and our flesh is that causes us to sin (Rom 7:15-24, James 1:13)

    As for Rev 21:1-5, I think verse 4 is the key:

    "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

    This is how the preterist interpretation is on this passage: This speaks of the old order of things, which is the old covenant. I don't want to have to pull out a hundred different bible quotes to explain my reasoning for this. It'll take forever.

    Under the old covenant, there was mourning and weeping. In fact that's what the book of Lamentation is all about. Check out these passages:

    Lamentations 1:16, 2:5, 2:18, 3:8, 5:15

    Preterist's also believe that 'death' in Rev 21:4 refers to spiritual death. Maybe that's why apostle Paul says the "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor 3:6).

    As for 2 Peter 3, my bible has a heading titled, "The Day of the Lord". "The Day of the Lord" happened several times in the Old Testament with Old Testament fulfillments. In not one case did statements like Isaiah 13:10 happen in a physical earth shattering manner. I mentioned this earlier but I might as well post this again:

    Compare to Jehovah's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), or Jehovah's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Or Jehovah's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), or His coming to Egypt in 572BC (Eze 32:7-11) . The sun, moon, and stars are not literal, but speak of the downfall of rulers and authorities. Isaiah 13:10-17 uses this exact language to speak of the conflict of the Medes and the Babylonians. Rev 12:1-4 and in Rev 8:10-9:2 use the casting down of stars to speak of rulers. Isaiah 14:12 calls Nebuchadnezzar the Morning Star cast down to earth. In Rev 1:20, the stars are rulers/messengers of the Churches. The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai in 2:7 and 2:21-23 to speak of political overturnings when the great Persian empire was all aflame with rebellion and conflict and the Jews were expecting this to work in their favor as they were being restored to Palestine and rebuilding the Temple.

    Such "de-creation of heaven and earth" language is used in Psalm 18:5-16 to describe the downfall of Saul's Kingdom. In Isaiah 13:6-19 we see the destruction of heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire. Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Ninevah (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11.

    Preterists look at the end times as the end of Biblical Judaism, not some global destruction. We look at Revelation as depicting the end of the old covenant age and the establishment of the consummated kingdom.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Catchup,
    Most Christians believe in eternal, or everlasting, punishment. Even if we propose that it is the Devil and "the beast and the false prophet" (Rev. 20:10) who are the only ones who suffer eternally, that would still add up to a cosmos wherein evil, sin and suffering continue forever and ever. To have planet Earth free from evil, sin and suffering while evil, sin and suffering continue elsewhere for eternity (i.e., "the lake of fire") does not solve the philosophical problem of the existence of evil, sin and suffering. Therefore the idea of a universe in which evil, sin and suffering continue for eternity is not at all a uniquely preterist problem. Unless you are a Universalist or an annihilationist, it seems that your objection may have more to do with the locale of sin and suffering than with the mere existance of it.

    YBIC anyway,
    P70
     
  15. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    Well guys (GW, parousia70, Hoonbaba, Davo) would you be surprised if I said I disagree? Try as I might to see your point of view, I still think there are plenty verses that speak to the contrary including some of those you used to support your position. Go figure.

    Somehow, your view seems kind of depressing. Maybe I don't understand it completely. I think I'll just let the Lord lead me in this particular matter.

    Somewhere along the line it becomes beating each other over the head with our trusty verses. That's not very loving from either point of view. It may very well be that, in the end, we are both wrong on this issue. But as long as we agree on the main issue, that Jesus Christ is Lord, it pales in comparison. I think I'll bow out for now folks and just enjoy the reading.
     
  16. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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  17. davo

    davo Member

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  18. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

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    ......................
    (GW, parousia70, Hoonbaba, Davo)
    Sorry. But I just couldn't agree with your views.
    For me, I took the futuristic views, that believed that Satan is not yet doomed.
    Defeated, yes.
    But he is still accusing us.
    But to no avail.

    However, I do enjoy reading all your views.
     
  19. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    I love all you guys. I have chosen for now, to debate this no further. But I leave you with these words from our Saviour. Even if what I have said means nothing to you, I will pray that you will listen to the words of Jesus...

    Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads , because your redemption is drawing near."

    :) LOVE
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi rpggal,
    could you define how you understand the difference between "defeated" and "doomed"?

    Thanks,
    P70
     
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