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Satan is history ?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Catchup, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    Okay, v34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place meaning the generation that was alive at that time. V35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away clearly a future event because Heaven and earth have not passed away. The context jumps from the present generation to a future generation. Am I correct in that? If verse 35 is future tense, many of the others might be as well, such as verse 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. v22 And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved...

    How has that verse had it's fulfillment? I have to believe the tribulation experienced in WWI and WWII were far worse and more far reaching than the demise of Israel in AD70 and would seem to go against the "nor ever shall".

    To me, verse 22, 29-31 only make sense in the future tense. If they had their fulfillment in the crucifiction, then ALL the tribes of the earth (all people) would have mourned and would have seen the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. That hasn't happened yet.

    I hope you don't take this as an attack on you, until now, I have never given this alot of thought. I just want to be with the Lord, as I feel we all do.
     
  2. davo

    davo Member

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    Catchup, I see your question -I got caught-up in other things :) (that was not meant to be offensive.

    My background is Baptist/charismatic. "Fulfilled Prophecy" like "futurism" (by way of clarification to save offending someone I'm using the term "futurist" broadly -meaning anyone who awaits a future coming of Christ -this includes folk who hold to partial-preterism to dispensationalism) is held by many across a broad sweep of denomonations. It is "my" experience that most Baptists are Dispensationalists, however I was brought up Amillennialist.

    Catchup judging by your posts I've just read I'm not sure my answer will mean anything to you -but there you go, I finally answered it. :)

    davo
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Ephesian,
    (I like your name BTW!)

    I'll do my best to address your points:
    Yes, "this Generation" meant the generation alive at the time Jesus sopke.

    About "heaven and earth" passing away, this does not mean "planet and cosmos", but it does mean Old Covenant Israel and the Mosaic economy. The same way the term "heaven and earth" is used to refer exclusively to Israel in: Leviticus 26:14-20, Isaiah 1:1-2, Isaiah 24:3-6, Isaiah 24:19-20, and especially Isaiah 51:15-16
    The time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God after He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people;, Therefore it can't be speaking of the creation of the Planet and cosmos, for that had been done long before.

    When He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation, He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government. He Created Israel into His covenant people through the instution of the Mosaic economy.

    We also know that Jesus, Peter & John were referring to "Israel" and not the planet when they used the term "heaven and earth shall pass away, because scripture teaches that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).


    As for AD 66-70 being the greatest tribulation of all time, It depends how you define "tribulation". Josephus eyewitness account of Jewish Mothers roasting and eating there own children because of the famine inside the Jerusalem's walls far surpass anything I have ever read about WW2 or any war before or since. In fact, If you read the curses outlined in Deuteronomy 28, of what would befall Israel due to her apostasy, side by side with Josephus account of the 66-70Ad war, they read eerily like the same book!

    There is also the precidented use of hyperbole regarding the term, "there shall be none like it before or since"
    In 2nd Kings I believe, this type of term was used to describe no less than THREE diferent Kings!, denoting the idea that the language of "end all be all" is employed to over-emphasise that the subject under discussion would be or is "very intense, very big, very large, very bad, very great, etc, etc, etc....

    Oh.... you mentioned "all the tribes of the earth"
    Tribes in scripture most always refer to Jews, and earth is the Greek "ge" which means "land" which most often is used to describe Israel. When the "city and Sanctuary" were raized in 70AD, make no mistake, All the Jews of the Land mourned!

    Hope I helped at least a little,
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Christ's blessings to ya, Ephesian.

    The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For exampe, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).


    COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

    (1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth"

    Deuteronomy 31:28
    Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

    Deuteronomy 4:26
    I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

    Leviticus 26:19
    And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

    Psalms 50:4
    He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

    Isaiah 1:2
    Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me


    (2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

    Isaiah 51:15-16
    For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

    Deuteronomy 31:28
    Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.


    (3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals

    Against Ancient Babylon
    Isaiah 13:13
    Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    Jeremiah 51:48
    Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

    Against King Saul
    Psalms 18:7-10
    Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

    Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
    Haggai 2:21
    Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

    So, getting back to the use of the phrase as it was used by Jesus and the writer of Hebrews, we can see that Jesus didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom. As the great Charles Spurgeon wrote:
     
  5. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Ephesian,

    I just registered, so I'm new here. I saw your post and I thought I'd share my thoughts. You mentioned, "nor shall ever be".

    I'm guessing you're referring to Matthew 24:21:

    For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. (Matt 24:21)

    I believe what happened in 70 AD was the most catostrophic time of great distress. Here's why:

    In the first century, the Jews committed the greatest crime by crucifying our Lord Jesus (Mark 15:13-14, John 19:6, Acts 2:36, Acts 4:10). And as a result, wouldn't they (who killed Jesus) deserve the worst punishment of all? Jesus even said he would come and the pharisees would live to see his coming (Matt 26:64), and as a result Jesus was accused of blasphemy (Matt 26:65). Why else would they put him to death? Also, the Jews even said, "We have no king but Caesar" (John 19:15). I don't know about you but making a statement like that means they flat out rejected Jesus altogether. There's absolutely NO other generation (other than the first century) that would ever commit the greatest crime- crucifying Jesus! I think that's enough to say Matthew 24:21 was fulfilled in the first century, at the fall of Jerusalem.

    Here's some facts about what happened, according to first century historian, Josephus:

    1) 1.1 million Jews died during the Jewish War (Wars 6.9.2).

    2) JOSEPHUS REPORTS TERRIBLE CARNAGE: Jerusalem, the temple, the Mediterranean, Sea of Galilee, Jordan, and Dead Sea covered with blood and gorged with bodies (Wars 3.9.3; 3.10.9; 4.7.6; 4.1.10; 4.5.1; 5.1.3; 6.8.5). Cf. Rev 8:8-11

    3) JOSEPHUS reports the Romans laying waste to Israel, setting fire to towns, cities, and trees (Wars 6.1.1; 3.7.8; 5.6.2; 3.7.1; 3.7.8; 5.6.2; 3.4.1; 6.6.2; 7.5.5). Cf. Rev 18:8

    Also, did you notice that the same lingo shows up in the same way in the old testament?

    COMPARE these three statements about three great O.T. kings:

    CONCERNING KING SOLOMON
    1 Kings 3:12
    behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you a wise and discerning heart, so that there has been no one like you before you, nor shall one like you arise after you.

    CONCERNING KING HEZEKIAH
    2 Kings 18:5
    He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him.

    CONCERNING KING JOSIAH
    2 Kings 23:25
    Before him there was no king like him who turned to the LORD with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; nor did any like him arise after him.

    Did you catch this idiom? We know that they can't all have been the greatest King of human or Israeli history! and Jesus was said to be "even greater than Solomon." (Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31)

    So there's a 2 answers to your question!

    God bless your studies! =)
     
  6. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    I don't know GW, I read it but I don't see it. Why not take it at face value. Heavens means heaven and earth means earth. I read those verses and it doesn't say old covenent to me.

    Parousia70 - Ephesians is probably my favorite NT book (if it is possible to pick one above the others).

    I see I need to do alot of praying over this.

    God bless.
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Hi Ephesian. The reason not to take Heavens and earth as "the planet and outerspace" in those passages is because the Hebrew writers that wrote those passages did not take them as the planet and outerspace. That's important.

    The phrase had many uses, which I listed above, and we know that in Hebrews 12:18-28 the shaking of heaven and earth was symbolic for the transition OUT of the Old Covenant world and INTO the New Covenant Kingdom. In total harmony with Hebrews 12:18-28, Jesus taught that Heaven and Earth and the Mosaic Law System would pass together (Matt 5:17-19). They did so at AD 70 when the Old Covenant vanished [as was expected to occur very soon when Hebrews 8:13 was written -- see Heb 8:13]. Hebrews was written in the 60s AD and the Temple was destroyed at AD 70. Jesus, speaking to his apostles, promised they would see all these things leading up to the destruction of the Temple:

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So you also, when you see all these signs, may be sure that He is near--at your very door. I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place.
     
  8. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

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    He died for all the sins of everybody. In essence, we all put him on the cross. Those people could not have put him up there if it wasn't His Fathers will.

    In WWII, 6 million Jews died, maybe more. The carnage covered half the world, not just the Middle East. It could realisticly be said that half the world was covered in blood and bodies. How can the Holocost not be worse than AD70? Granted, in AD70, that was the worst they had ever seen or could imagine, but it did get worse.
     
  9. Ephesian

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    God created the Heavens and the Earth. I think that is pretty all inclusive. The fact is, we are both assuming, you are assuming they did not mean the whole world and I am assuming they did.

    Again, we both read those verses and see them entirely different. Frankly, I find this totally amazing.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Hiya E.

    Well, just go back and look at those passages I listed there. Heavens and Earth was OFTEN used in a symbolic way. Perhaps just look at 2 Samuel 22:8-16 which is the prophet David's description of his victory over Saul when King Saul and his kingdom were destroyed and David became King. Is 2 Samuel 22:8-16 literal?


    That is because you are not paying attention to the grammar and context of the passage. You are by-passing the grammar and context of Matthew 24 and inserting yourself or some future generation into it. Try it once as it is written: Jesus is addressing his apostles about their immediate future. That is, the apostles are the "YOU" of Matthew 24. We have Jesus and his apostles sitting together and Christ is addressing THEM personally to their faces about things pertaining to them within their generation. Read it also in Mark 13 and in Luke 21. Read them all and remember who the "YOU" is. It is NOT you and me. It is the apostles.

    Thanks,
    GW
     
  11. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    I don't necessary agree with you there. I agree that I've sinned and that my sins fell upon that cross, glory to God! :) But I wasn't the one saying, "Crucify Him!" in the book of Matthew. I'm sure you'd agree that the pharisees were probably the worst of all sinners (then again, that's just my opinion). Jesus predicted that lots of doom would fall upon the Jerusalem (Matthew 23), in fact he says that it would happens in their generation (Matt 23:36), and we know based on history that Matthew 23 was fulfilled (this is not only a preterist thing). Again, Jesus said even the the high priest would see him at his coming (Matt 26:64), and Jesus prophecied accurately since the first century Jews were judged for the things they've done, particularly for "not willing to gather the children" (Matthew 23:37)

    It makes sense to compare numbers to determine what was worse, but I think we're looking at things differently. I personally don't think 6 million deaths can compare to the 1st century Jews pledging their allegiance to Caesar as king and killing Jesus, the king of kings. Thus, the first century Jews (who weren't faithful) received their punishment, since they were the ones who put Christ to death. I don't know of any greater crime than killing Jesus.

    And I think you missed the point I was making with the reference to Old Testament lingo. The fact is, it didn't necessarily mean it would be the worst of all tribulations. I think this is a Jewish idiom, like Matt 24:29. Did you notice the connection between this passage and other similar passages in the old testament?

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matthew 24:29)

    Isaiah 13:10 says nearly the same thing:

    For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

    And based on immediate context, we know this was to happen upon Babylon (Isaiah 13:1). This prophecy was fulfilled long before Christ. Was the 'sun, moon, stars' understood literally? I highly doubt it.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  12. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi Ephesian,

    I thought the following comments may be relevant with GW's explanation on 'heavens and earth'.

    By the way, I may not be able to post for the next few days. Perhaps it'll be weeks. I don't know. Anyway, God bless!

    -Jason


    Compare to Jehovah's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), or Jehovah's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Or Jehovah's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), or His coming to Egypt in 572BC (Eze 32:7-11) . The sun, moon, and stars are not literal, but speak of the downfall of rulers and authorities. Isaiah 13:10-17 uses this exact language to speak of the conflict of the Medes and the Babylonians. Rev 12:1-4 and in Rev 8:10-9:2 use the casting down of stars to speak of rulers. Isaiah 14:12 calls Nebuchadnezzar the Morning Star cast down to earth. In Rev 1:20, the stars are rulers/messengers of the Churches. The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai in 2:7 and 2:21-23 to speak of political overturnings when the great Persian empire was all aflame with rebellion and conflict and the Jews were expecting this to work in their favor as they were being restored to Palestine and rebuilding the Temple.

    Such "de-creation of heaven and earth" language is used in Psalm 18:5-16 to describe the downfall of Saul's Kingdom. In Isaiah 13:6-19 we see the destruction of heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire. Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Ninevah (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11.
     
  13. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Ephesian, just another thought on the Isa 51 passage mentioned above. The Bible definitely does use certain phrases that can have differing meanings or application other than or as well as the strick literal rendering, depending on context and grammar etc, as you obviously know.

    Back two verses to verse 13 we find according to the Hebrew as found in Young's Literal Translation Isaiah writing in the "present continuous tense."

    Isaiah 51:13 (YLT) And thou dost forget Jehovah thy maker, Who is stretching out the heavens, and founding earth, And thou dost fear continually all the day, Because of the fury of the oppressor, As he hath prepared to destroy. And where [is] the fury of the oppressor?

    Did you notice the continuous verbal tense -this is none other than God's making or fashioning of Israel under the Law His covenant people, as verse 16 goes onto indicate.

    davo
     
  14. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    The Sign of the Promise

    "And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness ..... then shall the end come." (Matthew 24: 14)

    The early part of the nineteenth century saw the foundation of missionary societies which translated the Bible into many languages and began a huge operation to spread the news of Jesus into every remaining country. In 1842 missionaries reached China, and organized efforts to proclaim the Gospel in Central Africa began in 1844.

    The Christian Almanac for 1990 reports that the Gospel has been preached to over 4 billion people, and Christian churches now exist in all 251 countries of the world.

    Every year about four billion Gospel tracts are distributed around the globe and over 120 million Bibles. The entire Bible, or portions of it, have now been translated into some 2,062 different languages, and is available to around 98 percent of the world's population.

    The Gospel is also preached from over 2,000 Christian radio and television stations, and religious shows can be seen on many more thousands of secular stations.

    Never in the entire course of history has the Gospel been preached in all the world to all nations as it is right now! Every nation on the face of the earth today has heard the Gospel as Jesus prophesied they would before the end comes.

    So if Jesus was right and the Bible is true, we are now living in the time of the End! :clap:



    With this in mindÂ… please explain how you could possibly believe the end happened with Nero? :rolleyes:

    Please address your comments to Jesus. These are his words not mine. Tell him where he went wrong in his understanding. :scratch:

    :) LOVE
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Catchup,
    Jesus didn't go wrong in His understanding, and neither did the Inspired, infallible apostle Paul who claimed that before 70Ad, "ALL NATIONS, ALL CREATURES, AND ALL THE WORLD" had in fact recieved the Gospel, fulfilling Matt. 24:14.
    Your "Extra-Biblical" evidence is nifty, but it only amounts to "newspaper eisigesis". Lets stick to scripture shall we?

    Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


    In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the aorist tense (past). Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

    Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

    Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. However, The Bible says (and that should settle all debate on the issue) that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.

    Note:
    This does not mean that the gospel was not to be preached after the end had come. The Gospel is eternal. It's sole purpose is to be peached to sinners on earth forever and always. Notice the parable of the wedding feast:

    Matthew 22:1-7 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 "and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 "Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 "But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 "And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 "But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

    Notice what he says to his servants AFTER the city is destroyed:

    Matthew 22:8-10 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 'Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 "So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    We dwell in the New Jerusalem in the very presence of God and the invitation is still going out today. Notice the invitation that goes forth from the New Heaven and Earth:

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.



    Please address your rebuttal to the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit who infallibly inspired him. Tell them where they went wrong in their understanding. ;)

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I originally quoted GW yesterday on post #52, on page 6. I poured my heart out here, but I don't think it even got looked at. What's going on??
     
  17. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    Good post Thunder! :clap:


    parousia70: You talk in riddles and half truths.

    When Paul spoke it was truth ...as he understood the world to be?

    When Jesus spoke it was truth... and he knows the extent of the world? He was there at creation.


    You can base your beliefs on a man or a God. But to me there is no choice. If there is a difference between man and God ....God wins!!!!

    :) LOVE
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thunder,
    I didn't reply because it was addressed to GW, but since you have opened the floodgates, I'll atempt to address a few of your points.

    Thunder said:
    You have been deceived already. If this is true, that Satan is already defeated, then why are millions of christians still being martyred??? What evil force is responsible for this madness??? The danger of the preterists view, is that you will not be ready and waiting when the Bridegroom calls, infact, I've read some of your posts that say you want to be left behind. I am not name calling here, but I am very concerned for your very souls.

    P70 replies:
    Man is soley responsible for the sin in the world today. The Bible says The heart of man is decietful above ALL ELSE, and we sin when we are tempted by our own disires.
    Satan is powerless, hoewever, Man is fully capable of Sin without Satan at the helm. This is an established Biblical fact.

    When you say you are concerned for preterists souls, are you implying you believe Preterists are not saved?
    If so, This is a serious accusation. You'll need to provide scriptural evidence that adhering to the "wrong" eschaton puts ones salvation in jeopardy.

    Thunder says:
    I think we all can see that you preterists are correct in some of your interpretations, but what I see is that you only receive the scriptures for there face value. There is no faith needed. You take it all in the natural, or with your human minds, which blocks the Holy Spirits spiritual guidance into all truth, and opening up your understanding to the word of truth. In other words, it appears that you can only understand like a lost man understands, and the lost man is blind. Don't take that as a cut down, because it was not intended that way. I'm just trying to show how bad you could really miss everything, including your rewards. These verses remind me of your views.

    Jude 17-21 - "But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. (18)They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires. (19)These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the spirit. (20) But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. (21)Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."

    Look in verse 21 - Although they were already born again, they were still waiting for eternal life. This world is not as terrific as you say. There are still thorns and thistles, and women still have severe pain when they give birth, and we still have murders, theft evil is running wild everywhere. If you Preterists are wrong, then you could miss everything. Just something to think about. I wouldn't take it lightly. It appears that you are gambling your whole lives on it, while the rest of us are watching and waiting like the good book says. Be very, very careful my friends.

    P70 replies:
    We preterists believe it is futurism that ignores the context, the original audience relevance, only understanding like the lost man understands, blocking the Holy Siprit from Guiding you into all truth.

    The verse in Jude you quoted is a perfect example. You ignore the relevance it must have to the original audience who first recieved the letter.

    Jude was reminding his contemporaries that what they were presently witnessing was the "last days" apostasy fortold by the apostles. It was written TO them, to warn them of events that THEY would witness. Futurism disregards audience relevance, claiming these letters were written TO us, and NOT to those who first recieved them.

    That is a contextual tavisty, and trifiling of the intent of scripture IMHO.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  19. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
    +1
    Christian
    Private
    Audience???

    Do you not know from the Spirit that the Bible speaks to all people and all times ??? :sigh:

    If I were to take you literally there would be very little if anything for me in the pages of my Bible.
    I was never in audience. :sigh:

    :) LOVE
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I believe the Word of God was ordained and preserved by the the Holy Spirit for the WHOLE ENTIRE AGE, which by your standards only lasted about 30 some years. I also believe you are confusing age for generation. If that was the age, it sure was only a drop in the bucket. Death ruled for about 4000 years, but the age of grace only 30, what happened??? What happened to the part where God was not quick to wrath, but merciful, and wishing that no-one should perish??? Yikes - Double YIKES
     
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