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Satan is history ?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Catchup, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    This is the End of Time board but there seems to be a lot of people posting who have a totally different take on the prophecies. Indeed...They believe that all the prophecies have already been fulfilled. Sorry boys and girls but if they were right ... this is the best its gonna get!

    I am not interested in debating what is in their minds. But now they have claimed the defeat of Satan.
    He is no-more according to some of these posters. Is that true? Are we no longer influenced by supernatural forces of evil? Is all the sin of this world coming from within our own hearts? And the most important question to me...What If a person were contacted by supernatural means?
    Since the Devil is destroyed then would this contact have to be from God? When you answer, please do not take into account any notions, that what I am questioning is originating from a less than healthy mind. Consider instead that many were involved and clear evidence was left behind. So if this were to happen, since Satan is gone ... then God made contact?

    Thank you. LOVE
     
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  2. marauderdog

    marauderdog New Member

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    i personally believe that many of the prophecies have not been fulfilled yet, but i also would like to hear some of the answers to be posted in this board. i am also curious about your experience. if you feel you can't post it here, then please email me at [ email removed, email should be in profile : thanks, marmaladePRO]
     
  3. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Satan is still accusing the brethern before the thrown and until he and all his followers are thrown head first into the lake of fire, he is still influencing this world.

    Yes Jesus defeated him but not totally, not yet anyway.
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Satan is defeated to Christ and his Church. In fact, this was the very purpose of Christ's ministry (see 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14-15; John 12:31; Col 2:15; Matthew 16:18-19; Matthew 28:18-19, etc), yet many today seem to deny that Christ was successful.

    It certainly is true that those outside the Kingdom of God are bound in chains of sin and darkness and are the "sons of satan" (as was Cain and as were the rulers of Israel Jesus spoke against in John 8:44) -- but look at how bound and powerless satan is to all the Sons of God (Acts 26:17-18; Matthew 12:28-29; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:17, etc). Jesus said the time for the satan to have been cast out was back in HIS time (John 12:31).

    So we must not UNDO the work of Christ in this matter by a retroactive faith that places us back in time as if we are a people living PRIOR to Christ's victory over satan. What a travesty it is, IMHO, to see how the eschatological doctrine of futurism is always robbing Christ of his power and completed work. It is not even uncommon to hear Christians say nearly blasphemous statements that satan is the god of this world as if that means Christ is not Lord over him and indeed over all things (Matthew 28:18-19; 1 Peter 3:22; Eph 1:20-21; Rev 1:5; )

    Finally, satan is most certainly NOT accusing any of the brothers any more. His ministry as the O.T. accuser of the saints came to an end when Christ stripped him of all authority and granted righteousness by faith to all the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 tells how the blood of the Lamb has granted this victory, and is tied to Paul's teaching in Romans:

    Rom 8:30-31,33
    Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then will we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Who could bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.


    This passage shows how satan's O.T. role as accuser of the brethren (see Job 1 and 2; Rev 12:10-11) is now over. He simply can make no accusation, for the Judge has fully pardoned all his people and based upon the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.

    Amazing Love and Victory!

    GW
     
  5. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

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    Wow GW so this is the Paradise???? This is as good as it gets???? Sorry but I have a hard time believing that!
     
  6. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    deleted by willis deal
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Satan has not been judged yet. Christ defeated DEATH and it's sting. Greater is He (Holy Spirit) that is in you, than he (satan) that is in the world. Satan is still alive and roaming around like a roaring lion, seeking who he may devour. Satan is a mighty foe if you don't have Christ, but if you have Christ, he has no power over you. He will temp you and try to trick you, but if you stand firm, and don't let him in, then victory will belong to you. Don't think the devil was defeated. If that were true, then we wouldn't have murders and all these perversions in the world around us. Satan is the father of lies and is the spirit of anti-christ and it is this power that we are told to overcome. The world hates you, but Jesus said to be of good cheer, because He overcame the world, and He gave us the power to defeat this imposter. Satan will be bound for a thousand years, but not until after the 7 year tribulation. Then he will be loosed after the 1000 years, but God will then destroy him and then create the new heaven and earth. Satans days are numbered, and I can't wait to see him get his due. Maranatha
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Oh - I have another point that I should add. I think that Satan thought that he defeated Christ at the cross, but he surely most know the truth by now. I look at the sick things going on in this world now, and they are getting worse and worse, and faster and faster. I think he knows his time is short now. And this is only my opinion, but I also believe that Christ wanted Satan to think he won, it seems odd that the apostles didn't have much opposition at first, and maybe that was part of the plan, so the gospel could spread out far from the reach of the devil. If the devil would have killed them all right after Christ, then the gospel couldn't have spread. It would have been D.O.A.
     
  9. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day rollin',

    You said: "Christ defeated DEATH and it's sting." Along the lines of 1Cor 15:55-56 I presume. If this is what you are saying then your first sentence "Satan has not been judged yet" cannot be true in any way shape or form, as the LAST ememy to be destroyed/defeated is DEATH -yet you're leaving room for the devil, and what did Paul say: give him no room.

    If anyone is wandering about all the murder and mayhem in the world, why is it that you refuse to believe the Scriptures:

    Jer 17:9 (NKJV) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?

    The bible is clear -Sin entered creation through Adam NOT the serpent; sure he was present and active, yet had no power, control or effect on or in creation until such time as Adam wilfully sinned. God's warning to Cain was that SIN was crouching at the door -NOT Satan.

    Again: This world's problem is SIN, not Satan, it is DOUBT, not the devil.

    James 1:14-15 (NKJJV) 14But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    We are accountable -we cannot blame the devil, doing so is denying the Scriptures:

    1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one cannot touch him. (do you have a difficulty accepting God at His Word?)

    It is also worth noting that we live in "the world to come" -that is, the world of the New Covenant. And according to the writer of Hebrews there is therefore NO angelic subjection -and Satan was a created angelic being:
    Heb 2:5 (NKJV) For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

    One other though: you don't need a tyrant around to still notice where he's been. But the truth is, Satan is in the Lake of Fire NOW.

    And if you're not covinced, if you still need the devil around (don't ask me why you would :scratch: ) then read these scriptures:

    *THE DEVILS DOWNFALL*


    HIS DOOM

    Genesis 3:15 (NKJV) And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

    2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV) For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

    Jude :6 (NKJV) And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;


    HIS DEMISE

    Matthew 8:19 (NKJV) And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

    Matthew 12:28-29 (NKJV) But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
    Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

    Mark 1:24 (NKJV) saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"

    Mark 3:27 (NKJV) No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.


    HIS DEFEAT

    Luke 10:18 (NKJV) And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    John 12:31 (NKJV) Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

    John 16:11 (NKJV) of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    Col 2:15 (NKJV) Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


    HIS DESTRUCTION

    Matthew 25:41 (NKJV) "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Hebrews 2:14 (NKJV) Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    1 John 3:8 (NKJV) He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    Revelation 20:10 (NKJV) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


    THE BELIEVERS POSITION THEN

    Romans 16:20 (NKJV) And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    Eph 4:27 (NKJV) nor give place to the devil.

    THE BELIEVERS POSITION SINCE THEN

    1 John 5:18 (NASV) We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

    Heb 2:5 (NKJV) For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

    davo
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello davo,
    You must be one of the few that the devil doesn't mess with, but that is not a good sign for you. The more you do for God, the more Satan attacks. But if you are idol, then he will leave you alone. Get the picture?? G'day
     
  11. davo

    davo Member

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    What a load of twaddle :rolleyes: -read those scriptures again!
    Jesus rules, period!!


    davo
     
  12. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    I am adressing this post to GW and Davo. I am happy that I was able to give you this soap box, on which to stand, to further your views. But you failed to answer my question..which was the main point of my thread. Do you believe that supernatural experiences, as I vaugely described, would have to be from God. For the sake of argument, just assume that "whatever" really did happen, and was not the product of a sick mind. I mean if we eliminate Satan, and are still to this day, dealing with something that is totally supernatural.
    Then could it indeed... only be a message from God?

    :) LOVE

    :kiss: Erwin, thanks for giving me back my smile!
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, I'm not GW or Davo, but I agree on most end time issues with them.

    Satan himself has not been, nor ever will be "eliminated" as you say, but His Power has. Satan can not "make" anyone "do" anything against their own free will. Satan can no longer forcably keep people from salvation.

    Individuals alone are responsible for their own sins.

    Nothing in scripture supports the notion that for sin and evil to exist in the world, Satan has to be working it or behind it somehow, likewise, nothing in scripture supports the "anihillation" or "extinguishment" of Satan Himself. He in fact is tormented "for ever and ever." (clearly one must first "exist" eternally in order to be on the receiving end of eternal torment.)

    I guess the question now comes to, where in scripture can we find evidence that once Satan is in the Lake of Fire, he can no longer attempt to influence individuals?

    It is true that once in the LoF, he can no longer "deceive the nations", however, this is a reference to how the Gospel defeated his hold on the Gentiles(referred to in scripture ad-infinitum as "the nations"), keeping them from Covenant with God. He of course no longer has the power to do that, as he did under the OC. For under the eternal new Covenant, all who thirst are welcome to enter into the Holy city above, and drink freely of the water of Life.

    Satan is a defeated foe.

    Peace,
    P70
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Catchup:

    Davo and I are both fully preterist in our view of the book of Revelation. That means we believe it has its fulfillment in the 1st century. However, preterists will differ in the application of certain meanings of fulfilled concepts. Let's look at satan as an example.

    For example, you'll find certain preterists who believe satan is annihilated (non-existant). You'll find some who think he is in hell's torments (tormented forever in the presence of Christ and the angels -- Rev 14). There is also a covenantal view of preterist eschatology that says satan's defeat and consignment to hell's eternal torments back in the first century is a victory for JESUS AND HIS NATION (the Church) -- i.e., all the realized blessings and powers depicted in the book of Revelation effect God's Chosen sons and daughters (from Jesus to the rest of the saints). This means that those outside of the Covenant remain under darkness and curse -- they remain united with darkness. Nevertheless, the Church's power and dominion is over the wicked and indeed all things and beings (Daniel 7:27; Matthew 16:18-19; Matthew 28:18-19). All our authority and rank comes from our Head, Jesus. Jesus is the ruler of all things (as I stated in my previous post with scripture citations). So, the demonology that preterists hold produces various positions and applications depending on many other theological factors. Follow so far?

    Just a few more comments...

    Preterists all note that in the final state we see the wicked living along side the righteous, yet the wicked are prohibited from going into the New Jerusalem City wherein the righteous dwell. While the wicked cannot enter the city of the righteous, they are depicted as being just outside its gates (Rev 22:14-15). When we read about the wicked there in that passage we see that sorcerers are listed (among others). This would imply dark arts.

    In short, some preterists believe the scriptures don't teach the annihilation of spirits or spiritual activity among planet earth. I personally believe that the heavenly realm and the earthly realm aren't to be viewed as separate, as if spatially removed from each other. In fact, the earthly realm came from the invisible universe to begin with (Hebrews 11:3). It's all intertwined in some fashion fully known only to God.

    That's just some thoughts on the cosmology of spirits as it relates to planet earth and realized eschatology.
     
  15. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Hi Catchup; we are told that everything that is good is from God, everything evil is from satan. An example is 9/11; that was done by an evil, dark mind working through another.
    Yes, I believe anything that is "supernatural" in a negative form is from the devil. Those who are weak in spirit are the ones that are easily influenced.
    If Jesus and his disciples were casting out the devils when he walked on the earth, how many more are here now? I have pondered over this, and still cannot figure this one out; here it is:
    Are the severely mentally ill/ psychotic/murderers/sex offenders have "bad spirits" by works of the devil, or is this a chemical/genetic/psycological reason?
    And if so (by the first list) how would that be judged by God, if they had no control over themselves, so to speak.
    Curious,
    Wildfire
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Catchup, both GW and P70 have given a broad sweep of the preterite side of things. I might add the following –like all schools of thought there can be variations etc.


    Psalms 24:1 (KJV) The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

    Acts 17:28 (KJV) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    Psalms 139:7 (KJV) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    God alone is sovereign, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and absolutely nobody is outside His kingdom IMO. This does not mean all therefore are saved, just because they are in God's domain. No, just because everyone is under his kingship does not mean that everyone ascribes to or obeys His laws, or even follows His ways -as always, we have choice. There would be people living in your country like mine that do not adhere to the governing authority. Those of us in the "Body of Christ" are kings and priests under Christ ministering to the world, as though God were making His appeal through us (2Cor 5:20).

    From the Crib to the Cross, from His Crowning to His Coming, Christ’s work is complete –this includes dealing with the devil. If there is yet more to end or complete -what is it, and what scriptures indicate this? The Gospel is everlasting (Rev 14:6), surely Satan has no everlasting sway from the Lake of Fire –that would be ascribing to him tremendous power. Satan never was God's antithesis, and yet some Christians views almost deify him -some form of 'christianized yin yang' –God's polar opposite. Under the former age (Gal 1:4, 1Jn 5:19) Satan had sway and control, but Jesus in His coming completely destroyed him -as per the scriptures in my previous post. I do not mean by this annihilation.

    What Jesus inaugurated in His ministry and confirmed at the Cross, that which He empowered at Pentecost and consummated at His Parousia is complete –i.e., The Victory of God. I believe in the victory of God, His victory was devastation for the devil.

    Again, we need to realize that we are saved not from Satan, but from our sins. It is our sins that separate us from God, not the devil. Sin entered creation through the first Adam -not the devil. Sin entered through the first Adam, Salvation came though the 2nd Adam. This is an important distinction. Adam and Eve, quite apart from Satan's evil intentions and intervention, were in a position to make the choice they made irrespective of the temptation –they were solely responsible for their actions, for they had the command of God. Again the issue is SIN not Satan, it is DOUBT, not the Devil. When we in faith turn from doubting God we receive the forgiveness that is already established, we come into covenant relationship with Him –we become "New Creations."

    As for other "spiritual" phenomena, you don't need the devil/demons for that either. We are inherently spiritual and I'm sure there is much to 'the human condition' that we don't understand.


    G'day Wildfire -what you said does get said a lot, but where exactly are we told this in the bible [in regards to Satan] -I know ALL thing [evil or not] work together for our good Rom 8:28.

    davo
     
  17. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Satan hasn't been thrown outta heaven yet.

    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    This is what starts the great tribulation,
    After being thrown out of heaven the devil makes war with the saints!

    twist, twist, twist, Lemonade anyone?
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

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    So Ron, do you have anything more than your usual shallow cliche or one-liner, or is that the depth of your contribution? :rolleyes:

    Luke 10:18 (NKJV) And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    Ron, do you have a particular "Heaven" in mind?

    davo
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

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    A new messageboard friend, Idaho Bassman, has not yet been able to register here and asked me to post his comment. I agreed and here it is:


    1) Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    2) When our eyes are opened we can see into the spiritual relm
    Numbers 22:31
    Then the Lord opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
    2 Kings 6:17
    And Elisha prayed, "O Lord , open his eyes so he may see." Then the Lord opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

    see ya -- Idaho Bassman
     
  20. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Luke 10:18 (NKJV) And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    That was in the begining, when he was thrown to the earth, he is now before the thrown accusing the brethern.


    So Ron, do you have anything more than your usual shallow cliche or one-liner, or is that the depth of your contribution?

    No this is my response to preterism and your twisted views

    twist, twist, twist lemonade anyone

    If you quote me don't add to my words
    [let the Scriptures speak for themselves]

    to bad you aren't doing this.
     
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