Same Ol' Same Ol'?

[Interplanner]

There always was some distancing from that nation and descendancy of Israel. Paul illustrates this many times. In the first part of Rom 11 he shows that the true remnant was a very low %.

There is some confusing uses of Rom 11 on here that need to be reviewed.
1, Saved in the end of Rom 11 is not Israel's statehood. There is an Israel mentioned in 9-11 that is not the nation. That Israel is saved. Saved is defined as the quotes from Isaiah define them: the debt of sin is canceled.
2, All of that Israel (above) is saved, but not all the nation or descendancy. It would never make sense, after all the disobedience, for the apostle to say the whole race would be saved at one future snapshot. Many are not saved. He didn't mean the nation.
3, to be hardened (not blinded) until the end of the Gentile harvest is not guaranteeing more events for a descended Israel at that point. Many were blind in the past, in the present and will be in the future to the end of time--that is the point of that passage.
4, the Isaiah quotes are historic. They have taken place. They were in the future tense of Isaiah's audience, but Paul is saying they have taken place. That's why v30 has so much historic closure. God is no longer dealing with ethnos, but only with those who have faith. He has in fact bound all ethnos to sin, and offers mercy to them all in the Gospel event.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

There always was some distancing from that nation and descendancy of Israel. Paul illustrates this many times. In the first part of Rom 11 he shows that the true remnant was a very low %.

There is some confusing uses of Rom 11 on here that need to be reviewed.
1, Saved in the end of Rom 11 is not Israel's statehood. There is an Israel mentioned in 9-11 that is not the nation. That Israel is saved. Saved is defined as the quotes from Isaiah define them: the debt of sin is canceled.
2, All of that Israel (above) is saved, but not all the nation or descendancy. It would never make sense, after all the disobedience, for the apostle to say the whole race would be saved at one future snapshot. Many are not saved. He didn't mean the nation.
3, to be hardened (not blinded) until the end of the Gentile harvest is not guaranteeing more events for a descended Israel at that point. Many were blind in the past, in the present and will be in the future to the end of time--that is the point of that passage.
4, the Isaiah quotes are historic. They have taken place. They were in the future tense of Isaiah's audience, but Paul is saying they have taken place. That's why v30 has so much historic closure. God is no longer dealing with ethnos, but only with those who have faith. He has in fact bound all ethnos to sin, and offers mercy to them all in the Gospel event.

Greetings Brother,

Can I ask the same question to you?

Do you believe that the church of God is nothing new, and that its the same OLD thing which Israel experienced while under the dispensation of the Law of Moses?

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 29:

Israel is no longer defined solely by circumcision and Jewish ethnicity.

That's right.

For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

random person said in post 29:

Israel now includes Gentiles as heirs of Abraham and the promises.

That's right.

For all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

 

[BABerean2]

Greetings Brother,

Can I ask the same question to you?

Do you believe that the church of God is nothing new, and that its the same OLD thing which Israel experienced while under the dispensation of the Law of Moses?

The Church of Jesus Christ was revealed in the book of Genesis as the Seed of the woman who would bruise the head of the serpent.

Christ was the Seed of Abraham and the Seed of David.

He was the One seed to which the promises were made. ( Gal. 3:16 )

If King David was only under the Law, then he was condemned to hell as a murderer and an adulterer.

The Church was always the Plan from the beginning. It is the only Plan.




Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


The Church was manifested in the latter days, however it has always been a part of God's Plan before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, in that sense, it is nothing new.

 

[Interplanner]

Paul says several times that the elect or the remnant was never exactly the same as the nation or descendancy of Israel in the OT.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Paul says several times that the elect or the remnant was never exactly the same as the nation or descendancy of Israel in the OT.

Could you quote the scripture you are thinking of here?

 

[Danoh]

Could you quote the scripture you are thinking of here?

Mark well my words; no matter how you might sugar coat your words, you are wasting your time with those two. They do not see the difference between "BEFORE" and "SINCE" the foundation, and have consistently demonstrated an unwillingness to even explore said difference.

In fact, whenever they see the word "mystery" they right away apply their one size fits all paradigm.

You will NOT get through to them...

It is what it is...

 

[random person]

RP,

Do you believe that the church of God is nothing new, and that its the same OLD thing which Israel experienced while under the dispensation of the Law of Moses?

Get a clue, buddy!

Jeremiah 31:31-34:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

C.F.

Hebrews 10:1-10:


For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first (COVENANT), that he may establish the second (COVENANT).

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Danoh]

Get a clue, buddy!

Jeremiah 31:31-34:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

C.F.

Hebrews 10:1-10:


For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first (COVENANT), that he may establish the second (COVENANT).

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Look who's talking about the need of another to "get a clue."

Israel and Judah are promised that...

HEBREWS then lays it out "TO THE HEBREWS" but you end up with "us."

Yeah, ok, mr. one size fits all, yeah, okay...

 

[random person]

CONT.


Hebrews 10:26-30:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. (DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM A.D. 70)

 

[random person]

Look who's talking about the need of another to "get a clue."

Israel and Judah are promised that...

HEBREWS then lays it out "TO THE HEBREWS" but you end up with "us."

Yeah, ok, mr. one size fits all, yeah, okay...

Israel and Judah were promised a new covenant unlike the Mosaic covenant. A covenant that requires no more temple sacrifices, no temple, and circumcision is absolutely nothing.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:21

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. John 6:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; John 17:15,20

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Mark well my words; no matter how you might sugar coat your words, you are wasting your time with those two. They do not see the difference between "BEFORE" and "SINCE" the foundation, and have consistently demonstrated an unwillingness to even explore said difference.

In fact, whenever they see the word "mystery" they right away apply their one size fits all paradigm.

You will NOT get through to them...

It is what it is...

Yes I understand. Preterism is a strange animal imo.

 

[random person]

Yes I understand. Preterism is a strange animal imo.

No, preterism honors all of Christ's and the apostle's time statements and does not distort them, conform them, and deny them in their pursuit of futurism, premillennialism, and dispensationalism.

Here is a bible search on the word "mystery":

Mystery (31 Occurrences)
Mark 4:11 He said to them, "To you is given the mystery of the Kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, all things are done in parables,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS)

Luke 18:34 Nothing of this did they understand. The words were a mystery to them, nor could they see what He meant.
(WEY)

Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Romans 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin. (24) Now to him who is able to establish you according to my Good News and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, (25) but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations; (26) to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen.
(WEB)

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
(KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS)

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 3:3 how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 3:4 by which, when you read, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 3:9 and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 5:32 This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 6:19 on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in opening my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the Good News,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints, Paul's Second Letter to the Thessalonians
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 1:27 to whom God was pleased to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 2:2 that their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in love, and gaining all riches of the full assurance of understanding, that they may know the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 4:3 praying together for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV)

1 Timothy 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV)

1 Timothy 3:16 Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: God was revealed in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.
(WEB KJV WEY ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 1:20 the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lampstands are seven assemblies.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead a name was written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 17:7 The angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)


http://biblehub.com/concordance/m/mystery.htm

 

[ThatTrueLight]

No, preterism honors all of Christ's and the apostle's time statements and does not distort them, conform them, and deny them in their pursuit of futurism, premillennialism, and dispensationalism.

Here is a bible search on the word "mystery":

Bible Search

Preterism believes and teaches that the LORD has forsaken the nation of Israel and that the church in now Israel.

It ignores the simple mystery in Romans pertaining to Israel and how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

How that they are enemies as concerning the gospel and beloved according to His election.

How many times does the word of God need to be shown to you until you actually believe what it says?

Why do men insist that it doesn't say that, when it DOES?

There's no common ground here if you're going to flat out deny the holy scriptures.

 

[random person]

Preterism believes and teaches that the LORD has forsaken the nation of Israel and that the church in now Israel.

It ignores the simple mystery in Romans pertaining to Israel and how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

How that they are enemies as concerning the gospel and beloved according to His election.

How many times does the word of God need to be shown to you until you actually believe what it says?

Why do men insist that it doesn't say that, when it DOES?

There's no common ground here if you're going to flat out deny the holy scriptures.

Israel is an olive tree, Christ-believing Jews are the natural branches, Christ-denying Jews are snipped off and removed, Christ-believing Gentiles are grafted-in in their absence, and the Jews who convert to Christianity to become Christ-believing Jews will also be regrafted back-in the Olive tree just like the wild branches of the Gentiles were.

Israel is indeed the church. Because how could uncircumcised Gentiles be grafted-in into national ethnic Israel? Under the Old Covenant, they would have to convert, be circumcised, and follow the Jewish law to a "T".

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Israel is an olive tree, Christ-believing Jews are the natural branches, Christ-denying Jews are snipped off and removed, Christ-believing Gentiles are grafted-in in their absence, and the Jews who convert to Christianity to become Christ-believing Jews will also be regrafted back-in the Olive tree just like the wild branches of the Gentiles were.

Israel is indeed the church. Because how could uncircumcised Gentiles be grafted-in into national ethnic Israel? Under the Old Covenant, they would have to convert, be circumcised, and follow the Jewish law to a "T".

I know, it's the same old thing right.

Sorry, I agree to move on as this goes nowhere.

 

[random person]

Israel is an olive tree, Christ-believing Jews are the natural branches, Christ-denying Jews are snipped off and removed, Christ-believing Gentiles are grafted-in in their absence, and the Jews who convert to Christianity to become Christ-believing Jews will also be regrafted back-in the Olive tree just like the wild branches of the Gentiles were.

Israel is indeed the church. Because how could uncircumcised Gentiles be grafted-in into national ethnic Israel? Under the Old Covenant, they would have to convert, be circumcised, and follow the Jewish law to a "T".

Thus the Israel spoken of in Romans 11:26, is a cornucopia of Christ-believing Jews and Christ-believing Gentiles. It is the church.

Christ-denying Jews have been removed from the Olive Tree. And how do they get themselves regrafted to said Olive Tree?

 

[random person]

I know, it's the same old thing right.

Sorry, I agree to move on as this goes nowhere.

BUT why are wild Gentiles branches being grafted onto ethnical Israel?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

BUT why are wild Gentiles branches being grafted onto ethnical Israel?

They're not, they're in Christ.. that's why it's called the body of Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

They're not, they're in Christ.. that's why it's called the body of Christ.

What were the unbelieving Jews broken off of in Romans chapter 11?

It cannot be the Church, because they were never a part of it.