Same Ol' Same Ol'?

[Bible2]

AlasBabylon said in post 3:

Olive is a symbol of Israel.

That's right.

And in Romans 11:17,24, the metaphor isn't just about people-groups, but is also about individuals within those people-groups. For just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 10:

JERUSALEM KNOWN AS THE BABYLONIAN harlot IN REVELATION WAS DIVORCED AND JUDGED . . .

Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem. For 1st century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

--

random person said in post 15:

The fullness of the Gentiles is actually the fullness of their blessings.

Actually, when Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

 

[Bible2]

ThatTrueLight said in post 20:

The church of God most certainly has its citizenship in heaven . . .

In Philippians 3:20, the original Greek word (politeuma: G4175) translated as "conversation" indeed means citizenship. And the citizenship of Christians is indeed currently in heaven (Philippians 3:20) because the literal city of New Jerusalem is currently in heaven (Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:26), and Christians become citizens of New Jerusalem through their faith in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28).

But in the future, New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), so that the citizenship of Christians will then be on the new earth. Also, even before the time of the new earth, Jesus will return and establish the kingdom of God physically on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). So at that time, the citizenship of Christians will also be on the earth.

ThatTrueLight said in post 20:

. . . as believers are seated in heavenly places in Christ.

Note that Ephesians 2:6 and Hebrews 12:22 can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

That is, the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

 

[ThatTrueLight]

That is, the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24).

Already fulfilled? That's hard to swallow knowing full well that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. They're enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's elective purposes, and so all Israel shall be saved in the end when the Deliverer does come from Sion and turns ungodliness from JACOB.

It's not like it's the same ol same ol.

 

[Bible2]

ThatTrueLight said in post 24:

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That's right (see the 2nd section of post 22 above).

ThatTrueLight said in post 24:

It's not like it's the same ol same ol.

That's right in that the Covenant has already changed from Old to the New (see the last 2 paragraphs of post 22 above).

ThatTrueLight said in post 24:

They're enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's elective purposes . . .

That's right.

Romans 11:28 is referring to the fact that some unbelievers are the genetic descendants of Abraham (John 8:37, Acts 13:26, Romans 11:1, Acts 7:2, Acts 3:25). And some of these unbelievers are elect, and are beloved in part because of their genetic descent (Romans 11:28-29).

All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

 

[ThatTrueLight]

SO I must agree to disagree and simply say that I believe that Israel has not yet entered into the NEW, but they will in the end when the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turns ungodliness from JACOB.

 

[mxyzpt1k]

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

That being said, John 11:40-41 appears to dispel the notion that the Gospel viewed the Jewish adherence to the "Old Covenant Mosaic Law" as a future sin, which required the Jewish people to keep the passover. Because Jesus appears to illustrate the "Old Covenant Mosaic Law" by illustrating his resurrection from the tomb, with Lazarus. That is Jesus appears to make a offering for sins, and thus keeping the Mosaic tradition of the hebrews, since Jesus came as a Jew, not a Gentile.

Romans 11:28 is referring to the fact that some unbelievers are the genetic descendants of Abraham (John 8:37, Acts 13:26, Romans 11:1, Acts 7:2, Acts 3:25). And some of these unbelievers are elect, and are beloved in part because of their genetic descent (Romans 11:28-29).

True, but the Jewish people do not have to repent of their sins in the churches. In otherwords, the new testament, essentially beginning with the Apostle Paul, begins to associate the Roman and the Genetic Italian to "Repentance in the Churches", since they are named specifically on several accounts in the context as the head of the "Churches", then in revelations God asks them to repent, God does not ask the Jew to repent, if we view this that way. God is both describing language for another "Separatist Inheritor" of a New Earth of their own, with limitations to penalize or revolk via repentance and testifying which must be done.

Because the Jews do not have to repent of their church sin at the end of time, many people count the Jewish's adherence to the "Mosiac Law" as a sin, and they are sadly mistaken, or at least I am lead to believe this based on how the new testament does not flamboyantly use the word "Hebrew" to tie in specific associations. But at the same time, I believe because of the "Old Covenant Mosaic Law", God gave the jews up to the holocaust as a form of chastisment for not being faithful, but again, not as a rebuke of their adherence to those precepts.

 

[Danoh]

That being said, John 11:40-41 appears to dispel the notion that the Gospel viewed the Jewish adherence to the "Old Covenant Mosaic Law" as a future sin, which required the Jewish people to keep the passover. Because Jesus appears to illustrate the "Old Covenant Mosaic Law" by illustrating his resurrection from the tomb, with Lazarus. That is Jesus appears to make a offering for sins, and thus keeping the Mosaic tradition of the hebrews, since Jesus came as a Jew, not a Gentile.



True, but the Jewish people do not have to repent of their sins in the churches. In otherwords, the new testament, essentially beginning with the Apostle Paul, begins to associate the Roman and the Genetic Italian to "Repentance in the Churches", since they are named specifically on several accounts in the context as the head of the "Churches", then in revelations God asks them to repent, God does not ask the Jew to repent, if we view this that way. God is both describing language for another "Separatist Inheritor" of a New Earth of their own, with limitations to penalize or revolk via repentance and testifying which must be done.

Because the Jews do not have to repent of their church sin at the end of time, many people count the Jewish's adherence to the "Mosiac Law" as a sin, and they are sadly mistaken, or at least I am lead to believe this based on how the new testament does not flamboyantly use the word "Hebrew" to tie in specific associations. But at the same time, I believe because of the "Old Covenant Mosaic Law", God gave the jews up to the holocaust as a form of chastisment for not being faithful, but again, not as a rebuke of their adherence to those precepts.

During this temporary mystery age, if you build again that which the Apostle of the Gentiles was sent to declare "destroyed" you make yourself "a transgressor," Gal. 2.

So, while you bring up an interesting point. At the same time, on the one hand, you are two thousand years too late, on the other, too soon.

Yours is a "not yet..."

 

[random person]

Already fulfilled? That's hard to swallow knowing full well that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. They're enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's elective purposes, and so all Israel shall be saved in the end when the Deliverer does come from Sion and turns ungodliness from JACOB.

It's not like it's the same ol same ol.

Fulness of the Gentiles be come in is explained in Romans 11:17-24.

Israel is no longer defined solely by circumcision and Jewish ethnicity. Israel now includes Gentiles as heirs of Abraham and the promises.

Israel itself has had its whole ethnic make-up turned on its head by the New Covenant. In that Israel is no longer just about Jews, but now it is just about Christians and the church no matter their ethnicity.

Israel is no longer strictly Jewish. The church is Israel now. Not ethnical Jews.

When Romans says all of Israel is saved -- it is speaking of Israel under the New Covenant not Israel under the Old Covenant.

But many Christian Zionists and dispensationalists believe Paul wrote Romans 11:26 under Old Covenant definition when he really wrote it under New Covenant redefinitions -- read verses 17-24 & 25!!!!!

God has always saved a remnant of Jews during times of national apostacy see Romans 11:4-5, likewise during Jesus' ministry and the early church there was also national apostacy with a saved remnant. And as many as Jews come to know Christ throughout all ages will be grafted back in. They will be grafted back into the New Covenant Israel where the Jewish remnant and grafted-in Gentiles currently reside in the New Covenant Israel. Thus all of the New Covenant Israel is saved.

Do you get it?

 

[random person]

During this temporary mystery age, if you build again that which the Apostle of the Gentiles was sent to declare "destroyed" you make yourself "a transgressor," Gal. 2.

So, while you bring up an interesting point. At the same time, on the one hand, you are two thousand years too late, on the other, too soon.

Yours is a "not yet..."

There is no temporary mystery age, the mystery is that Gentiles have become fellowheirs and partakers of the promises.

Here is the mystery in its entirety -- that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

What is that "same body"? The body of Christ!

And again:

and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

What is that "in one body"? The body of Christ!

The body is THE CHURCH!

 

[random person]

Already fulfilled? That's hard to swallow knowing full well that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. They're enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's elective purposes, and so all Israel shall be saved in the end when the Deliverer does come from Sion and turns ungodliness from JACOB.

It's not like it's the same ol same ol.

But the New Covenant turned the Old Covenant on its head -- Romans 11:17-25!

 

[ThatTrueLight]

But the New Covenant turned the Old Covenant on its head -- Romans 11:17-25!

The nation of Israel rejected Christ and does til this day and has not entered into the NEW covenant. They shall be delivered in the end though as the Deliverer shall come and turn ungodliness from Jacob.

That's only if a person actually believes Romans 11 and that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And no, the church is not Israel.

It's NOT the same ol same ol

 

[BABerean2]

After God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt by parting the Red Sea and then drowning Pharoah's army, Korah and others lead a rebellion against Moses. The children of Israel were allowed to make their own choice between Moses and Korah. Those who stood with Korah were destroyed by God, even though he had previously saved these same people from the army of Egypt.

During the time of Elijah, most of the children of Israel bowed the knee to Baal. Only 7,000 stood with God. The others were destroyed.

Over and over again throughout the history of the physical seed of Abraham they have been asked to make a choice between standing in faith with God or turning from the plan of God.

The same thing happened when their long awaited Messiah, was born, was baptized, and bore their sins.

Some of the children of Israel accepted their Messiah and others rejected Him.

Which group continued as faithful Israel and which group turned away from the plan of God?

Some of us seem to be trying to keep Korah, and the Baal worshippers as a part of faithful Israel and then crying "Replacement Theology" when some of us point out the clear teaching of Romans chapter 11.

Who are the branches broken off in Romans 11?

Why were they broken off?

How may they be grafted back in?

Who are those not broken off?

When two trees are grafted together, neither tree is replaced.

 

[random person]

The nation of Israel rejected Christ and does til this day and has not entered into the NEW covenant. They shall be delivered in the end though as the Deliverer shall come and turn ungodliness from Jacob.

That's only if a person actually believes Romans 11 and that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And no, the church is not Israel.

It's NOT the same ol same ol

But Israel did enter the New Covenant but most rejected it.

Christianity began as a Jewish movement that begun in Jerusalem.

Remember Romans 11:4-5!!!!!

That fact remains to this day.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Same ol, same ol.. nothing new here.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

But Israel did enter the New Covenant but most rejected it.

You might want to review the book of Acts.

Christianity began as a Jewish movement that begun in Jerusalem.

It's called the body of Christ, something completely new and unheard of in the OT.

Remember Romans 11:4-5!!!!!

That fact remains to this day.

Please do the same and try not to ignore the simple fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That fact remains to this day.

 

[random person]

Who are the branches broken off in Romans 11?

Unbelieving Jews. But also false Christians too.

Why were they broken off?

Apostacy.

How may they be grafted back in?

Accepting Christ as their lord and savior.

Who are those not broken off?

Every Christian believing Jew since the 1st century.

When two trees are grafted together, neither tree is replaced.

No, not two trees, but one tree, with both natural branches and grafted-in wild branches. Christ is the root.

 

[random person]

You might want to review the book of Acts.



It's called the body of Christ, something completely new and unheard of in the OT.



Please do the same and try not to ignore the simple fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That fact remains to this day.

Did not Jesus command the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until the Day of Pentecost? Was not James the church leader in Jerusalem? Was not the Gospel preached in Judea to JEWS for the first dozen or so chapters of Acts before being preached at large to the Gentiles?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Did not Jesus command the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until the Day of Pentecost? Was not James the church leader in Jerusalem? Was not the Gospel preached in Judea to JEWS for the first dozen or so chapters of Acts before being preached at large to the Gentiles?

Keep going, and THEN what happened..

HINT: God raised up Paul to do something

 

[ThatTrueLight]

RP,

Do you believe that the church of God is nothing new, and that its the same OLD thing which Israel experienced while under the dispensation of the Law of Moses?