Same Ol' Same Ol'?

[ThatTrueLight]

What I see as a major stumblingblock to many conversations here in eschatology is that many believe that the church is Israel, as if nothing at all changed from the OLD TESTAMENT under the Law of Moses to the NEW TESTAMENT by Jesus Christ, the One full of grace and truth.

And that's the problem;

The church of God isn't Israel.

How can men actually think that nothing changed from the OT to the NT with respect to Israel being under the LAW as compared to the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ?

Really?

How in the world do men not see the difference?

Or do many simply ignore the difference and pretend that it doesn't matter? I don't know, although what possible reason is there to teach others that there is no difference and that the church is now Israel?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I get the impression that many Christians are taught that the church is now Israel and that there shall not be a deliverance of the nation of Israel in the future, specifically at the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

IMO there is no evidence that the church of God is Israel, as it is a completely new thing which was unheard of in the OT dispensation under the Law of Moses.

NOR can it be a continuation of the same thing that Israel was, as that would certainly imply that it's the same old thing, and nothing new at all.

Bring out your scriptural evidence to support that the church of God is Israel (as so many are led to believe today), and I would wager that you'll find no such thing within the word of God concerning the church of God being the Israel of God.

 

[AlasBabylon]

.

From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is about God's
relationship with one people, His chosen people, Israel.

God says He raised Israel up and married her.
Their marriage covenant was at Mt Sinai.

Then after Israel split into two kingdoms, God
divorced the Northern Kingdom because of sin.
This was most of the Israel... divorced from God,
their kingdom destroyed and removed from the
Holy Land by Assyria and for the next 800 years
living as gentiles in gentile lands.

Then the Southern Kingdom, Judah, was punished
for sin via 70 years of Babylonian rule during which
Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed and Judah
was removed from the Holy Land into Babylonian
captivity. After Cyrus conquered Babylon, he returned
a portion of Judah back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple.
Jesus was born from that portion of Judah who returned
to Jerusalem about 539BC.

Jesus said He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.
Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him... and
so they did. Israelites were the first to be called Christians
in the book of Acts. James 1:1 addresses all 12 tribes of Israel
scattered among the gentiles in the name of Jesus Christ.

Olive is a symbol of Israel. When Paul talked about the wild
olive branch grafted to the olive tree... he was referring to
Israelites living among the gentiles. As OT prophecy says...
both Joseph and Judah will be joined as one in God's hands.
David [Jesus Christ] will rule over them and they will keep
God's commandments. This is not future... this was a done
deal millennia ago when the people of Israel scattered to the
winds in Europe and Asia heard the good news of Israel's Messiah
and became Christians... exactly as Jesus said they would.


Btw... I mention this in my topic about the divine marriage.
That when God divorced the Northern Kingdom of Israel
[which was most of the Israelites] and sent sinning Israel
off to live with her pagan lovers. Under God's Law, God
could never remarry those lost Israelites... not as long
as the first marriage covenant [testament] existed.
God's incarnation as Jesus Christ was to die for Israel...
to break the old covenant [testament] and remarry all
Israel under a new marriage covenant.


.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

.

From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is about God's
relationship with one people, His chosen people, Israel.

God says He raised Israel up and married her.
Their marriage covenant was at Mt Sinai.

Then after Israel split into two kingdoms, God
divorced the Northern Kingdom because of sin.
This was most of the Israel... divorced from God,
their kingdom destroyed and removed from the
Holy Land by Assyria and for the next 800 years
living as gentiles in gentile lands.

Then the Southern Kingdom, Judah, was punished
for sin via 70 years of Babylonian rule during which
Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed and Judah
was removed from the Holy Land into Babylonian
captivity. After Cyrus conquered Babylon, he returned
a portion of Judah back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple.
Jesus was born from that portion of Judah who returned
to Jerusalem about 539BC.

Jesus said He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.
Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him... and
so they did. Israelites were the first to be called Christians
in the book of Acts. James 1:1 addresses all 12 tribes of Israel
scattered among the gentiles in the name of Jesus Christ.

Olive is a symbol of Israel. When Paul talked about the wild
olive branch grafted to the olive tree... he was referring to
Israelites living among the gentiles. As OT prophecy says...
both Joseph and Judah will be joined as one in God's hands.
David [Jesus Christ] will rule over them and they will keep
God's commandments. This is not future... this was a done
deal millennia ago when the people of Israel scattered to the
winds in Europe and Asia heard the good news of Israel's Messiah
and became Christians... exactly as Jesus said they would.


Btw... I mention this in my topic about the divine marriage.
That when God divorced the Northern Kingdom of Israel
[which was most of the Israelites] and sent sinning Israel
off to live with her pagan lovers. Under God's Law, God
could never remarry those lost Israelites... not as long
as the first marriage covenant [testament] existed.
God's incarnation as Jesus Christ was to die for Israel...
to break the old covenant [testament] and remarry all
Israel under a new marriage covenant.


.

Could you reference what scriptures lead you to believe that the church of God is now Israel?

List the scripture and then explain how it means that the church is Israel.

 

[Gideon]

 

[mxyzpt1k]

.

From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is about God's
relationship with one people, His chosen people, Israel.

God says He raised Israel up and married her.
Their marriage covenant was at Mt Sinai.

For a long period of time in the Gospel, the title of "God's Chosen People" could only apply to the Jewish People. The Gospel was isolated to them, and in many ways the word "Isreal" was synonymous with the Jew.

God did raise up a women and marry her, yes. But before this, Moses raised up a women and killed her in Num 25:6-8. Now there was a marriage of the Jews God ordained Jesus to bless in the New Testament. Now God raised up this women for the Jews to Marry, and that had taken place in national Isreal. God did cut the Jews off in the spirit in some way, by placing Ephraim in to Judah, that is by giving the Jews up to the Romans. God also intended the Jews to witness, until they were taken out of the way, some have linked this to physical Isreal, or to physical Jerusalem, for a witness. Coincidentally, no form of genocide by what constitutes "genetic Dan" has overthrew the Jews from Isreal or from Jerusalem for that matter ... they have found some favor with the lord sown in their suffering and sown in their sacrifices.

(Truth was later revealed through the Apostles that the Gospel's lineage to the Jew, served as a reference to all men that constituted the "Body of Believers", this naturally was implied the length of the gospel, but very specifically god limited his association to the gospel with the people of Jewish descent specifically ... "Isreal's" significance can only be associated to the Jewish people today, not to the "Body of Believers")

 

[AlasBabylon]

Could you reference what scriptures lead you to believe that the church of God is now Israel?

List the scripture and then explain how it means that the church is Israel.

I have presented Biblical truth from Genesis to Revelation
in an overview form, in my own individual manner of writing.
Those who have read and understand the Bible should know
the Bible references I make in my essay. Instead of dissecting
individual trees... what I am presenting is a view of the entire
forest and its eco-system.


.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I have presented Biblical truth from Genesis to Revelation
in an overview form, in my own individual manner of writing.
Those who have read and understand the Bible should know
the Bible references I make in my essay. Instead of dissecting
individual trees... what I am presenting is a view of the entire
forest and its eco-system.


.

So you presented biblical truth, what does it mean?

 

[random person]

What I see as a major stumblingblock to many conversations here in eschatology is that many believe that the church is Israel, as if nothing at all changed from the OLD TESTAMENT under the Law of Moses to the NEW TESTAMENT by Jesus Christ, the One full of grace and truth.

And that's the problem;

The church of God isn't Israel.

How can men actually think that nothing changed from the OT to the NT with respect to Israel being under the LAW as compared to the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ?

Really?

How in the world do men not see the difference?

Or do many simply ignore the difference and pretend that it doesn't matter? I don't know, although what possible reason is there to teach others that there is no difference and that the church is now Israel?

Baloney, you don't understand and don't comprehend Jeremiah 31:31-34!

THE OLD COVENANT/OLD TESTAMENT - CIRCUMCISION IS EVERYTHING!

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. GENESIS 17:14

THE NEW COVENANT/NEW TESTAMENT - CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING!

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 COR. 7:19

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. GALATIANS 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. GALATIANS 6:15

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. PHILIPPIANS 3:3

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: COLOSSIANS 2:11

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. COLOSSIANS 3:11

If circumcision is absolutely necessary for a Jew in order to keep his identity as a Jew (GENESIS 17:14), to be acceptable to inherit the promised land (remember Joshua circumcised all the Jews soon after crossing the Jordan - JOSHUA chapter 5), and to save his life (remember Moses' son - EXODUS chapter 4). Then what is the message of the New Testament if not that the Israel of God now encompasses all people, Jew and Gentiles alike, in the bride of Christ?

Here is an important article:

The Honour of Circumcision within Second-Temple Judaism​

The issue of circumcision within the worlds of the Greco-Roman Empire and the Second Temple Judaism exemplifies the complexities and differences of honor and shame to diverse individuals and collectives. James D. G. Dunn views that circumcision functioned first and foremost as a marker that distinctly identified Jews.[1] This is confirmed by the writings of Greco-Roman authors, who, on the subject of Jews and Judaism, generally comment on the Jewish practice of circumcision, as well as Sabbath observance, abstention from pork, and the worship of one god.[2] By the Second Temple period, the terms “circumcised” and “Jew” were practically synonymous.[3]

Nina E. Livesey has demonstrated in her colossal study of circumcision within the Second-Temple period that circumcision for Jews did not have a single monovalent meaning. As Livesey details, circumcision operated as a symbol of pride and commitment to Judaism, as well as a symbol of allegiance to the Hasmonean rule, but also as a spiritual metaphor and allegory for one’s relationship to God, among many other things.[4] From Philo of Alexandria to the writings of the Apostle Paul, no one defining meaning of circumcision can be gleaned, thus demonstrating the fluid role it played in the life of Jewish practice, thought, and theology.[5] What can be said is that circumcision for Jews was universally honorific, but for a variety of reasons.

The rite and practice of infant circumcision was dynamically deep to all members involved. The infant male was the primary recipient of honor, the focus of the family’s and community’s gathered attention and adoration. By the removal of this individual’s foreskin, he would be marked as inherently different. He would have the honor of belonging to a special race of people, with a special god, and laws, rituals, and practices. In total, “the circumcision of the penis became the outward sign of the immutability of the Jew within.”[6] Regardless of whatever life may bring them, what family name they were born into, this individual was now a member of God’s special covenantal people, and that in itself was honor enough.

Yet, this honor would extend to the members gathered around the infant being circumcised into the covenant. The father would receive honor for bearing a son, a successor to continue the family name for a further generation, and the mother would receive honor for fulfilling her womanly duty in producing an heir for her husband. In this way, “circumcision becomes the very symbol of the son’s right of inheritance and right to his own life.”[7] It is safe to assume that friends and family members would have also been honored to have been invited to witness such an important event in an individual’s life. Collectively, they would have been reminded of God and Abraham’s mutual honoring via the covenant made between them and their collective role within that covenant and through the birth of a child, the promise to further generations.[8]

From all this, it could be viewed that from the Jewish mindset circumcision perfects the penis.[9]


The Honour of Circumcision within Second-Temple Judaism | Daniel N. Gullotta

 

[random person]

What I see as a major stumblingblock to many conversations here in eschatology is that many believe that the church is Israel, as if nothing at all changed from the OLD TESTAMENT under the Law of Moses to the NEW TESTAMENT by Jesus Christ, the One full of grace and truth.

And that's the problem;

The church of God isn't Israel.

How can men actually think that nothing changed from the OT to the NT with respect to Israel being under the LAW as compared to the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ?

Really?

How in the world do men not see the difference?

Or do many simply ignore the difference and pretend that it doesn't matter? I don't know, although what possible reason is there to teach others that there is no difference and that the church is now Israel?

I have quite a few passages:

ISRAEL, THE BRIDE OF YAHWEH:

For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called. Isaiah 54:5

For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. Isaiah 62:5

“Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the Lord, “I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown. Jeremiah 2:2

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Jeremiah 3:8

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34

“When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine. Ezekiel 16:8

C.F. THE CHURCH, THE BRIDE OF CHRIST:



I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 2 Corinthians 11:1-4


Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Revelation 19:7-9

Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. Revelation 21:9-11

IF GOD HAS TWO BRIDES, THAT MAKES HIM AN ADULTERER. JERUSALEM KNOWN AS THE BABYLONIAN harlot IN REVELATION WAS DIVORCED AND JUDGED IN ORDER TO ARRANGE THE MARRIAGE SUPPER BETWEEN THE LAMB AND HIS BRIDE.


AND AGAIN:

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:17-24

WHAT IS THE OLIVE TREE? IS IT ISRAEL? OR IS IT THE CHURCH? IF IT IS ISRAEL, THEN WHY ARE GENTILES BEING GRAFTED TO ISRAEL? PLEASE REMEMBER, THE CHURCH BEGAN IN JERUSALEM AND BEGAN AS A JEWISH MOVEMENT WITH CHRIST AS THE ROOT (LUKE 24:49 & ACTS 1:4)


ONCE MORE:

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God (THIS IS THE CHURCH). Galatians 6:15-16

 

[keras]

God will redeem His people - He who scattered Israel will gather them again:

Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from the Lord, a sweeping whirlwind, coming down onto the heads of the wicked. The Lord’s anger will not be turned aside, it will accomplish His purposes.
In days to come, you will understand. Deut. 29:4, Isaiah 35:5, Isaiah 48:6-8
Jeremiah 31:1-40 At that time, I shall be the God of all the families of Israel and they will be My people, a people that have escaped the sword and found favour in the wilderness. From afar God will appear to His people. 2 Thess. 1:10. He loves and cares for them and will build them up again, for a Day will come when the watchmen cry out on the hills of Ephraim: Come, let us go up Zion, unto the Lord our God. Once again, they will be happy and the Land will be fruitful. They will worship God in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 20:34-36
The Lord says: be joyful for Jacob’s sake, sing praises and say- God has saved His people, He has preserved a remnant of Israel. See how He brings them from all parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, women and children. A vast company, they come with weeping and prayer, God will comfort and escort them. He will lead them by streams of water, on smooth paths, for He is the Father to Israel and Ephraim is His eldest son. Psalm 107, Isaiah 11:11-13, Isaiah 62:10-12
Listen to the Word of the Lord, you nations, make it known to people far away. He who scattered Israel, will gather them again and will watch over them as a shepherd watches over his flock. For God has redeemed Jacob [the 12 tribes] and delivered them from their enemies. His righteous people will come with great joy into a Land of plenty and peace. Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14-15,
Rachel weeps for her children. [Rachel is the mother of Jacob/ Israel] Shed no more tears, for they will leave the nations and return to their own Land. God has disciplined Ephraim, like an unruly bull calf. After Ephraim strayed, he repented and now in shame and remorse; reproaches himself for the sins of his youth. God says: Ephraim is still My dear son, in whom I delight and I still remember him and have compassion for him. Hosea 11:8-9 Set up signs to mark your way, the path for your return. Come back virgin Israel to your towns. How long will you wander, My wayward child? Deut. 4:26, Isaiah 63:17-19, Ezekiel 4:4-6, John 7:35
This will happen: a woman will protect a man. Judges 5:7 – a precedent?
The Lord says: When I bring My people back from exile, from all parts of the world, they will live in all the Land and be satisfied. Once more will these words be heard in the Land; God bless you, the home of righteousness, the holy mountain. Ezekiel 39:27
The days are coming, says the Lord, when I will plant Israel and Judah then increase their people and livestock. In the past My intent was to uproot and inflict disaster upon them, now I shall watch over them, to build and plant. Micah 7:11-12, Ezekiel 36:8
It will no longer be said that children will suffer for their parents sins. Only those who sin will be punished for it. Ezekiel 18:20
The days are coming when I shall establish a new covenant with Israel and Judah. It will not be like the one that I made with their forefathers, when I took them out of Egypt, that covenant they broke, though I was patient with them. This will be the new Covenant that I will make with the whole House of Israel, in the latter days; I shall set My Law within them, in their hearts, all of them will know and obey Me. I will forgive and forget their wrongdoing. Ezekiel 37:26, Hebrews 8:6-12
The Lord says: As the sun and stars are set in their courses, as the wind and the sea roars- only if this fixed order changes, only then: could Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me. Micah 7:19-20, Isaiah 14:1-2, Hosea 2:18-23
The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt in My honour. It will be holy to Me, never again to be demolished. Isaiah 58:12, Micah 7:11, Jeremiah 30:18 Ref: REB. Verses abridged.

‘A scorching wind, a sweeping whirlwind that will destroy the wicked’ - This is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied event, the sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17 and Isaiah 30:26a – a massive sunstrike that will affect all the world. Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7
‘God will save His people. At that time…a people will escape the Sword’ – The Lord’s righteous people will be protected on that Day. Isaiah 30:26b, Joel 2:32, Psalm 23:4
‘The Redemption of the Nazarenes’– In Jer.31:6, the word translated ‘watchmen’ is ‘natsar’ meaning: to obey, also to preserve and protect. [ref: Strongs 5341] Another connotation is ‘nazar’. meaning to set apart, to consecrate and dedicate. [ref:Strongs 5144] It is the root word for Nazareth and all disciples of Jesus were and still can be, known as Nazarenes. Acts 24:5 So it will be all the righteous believers who will gather and go to live in the Promised Land. Col. 1:9-20
‘He who scattered Israel, will gather them again. His righteous people, will leave the nations and come, with great joy into a Land of plenty and peace. They will worship their God in Jerusalem’. – This is the great promise of the redemption of all God’s people, that is; all true believing Christians, who will live in the new country of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in peace and prosperity. They will build the 3rd Temple and worship God as in ancient days. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 40 to 48. God made unconditional promises to the Patriarchs and their descendants remain mostly scattered around the world. Amos 9:9, Ezekiel 34:5+11-16. They are ‘a vast company’, who now constitute a high proportion of the population in the Western/Christian nations. Their right to ownership of the holy Land will be proven when the title deed in Jeremiah 32:14 is found. But we are told very clearly in the New Testament, that;…those with true faith will share the Blessings promised to Abraham. Galatians 3:6-9, Isaiah 56:1-8, John 10:16
‘It will no longer be said: the children will suffer for their parents sins’. - The sins of the forefathers are paid for by the Israelite’s long exile. Isaiah 27:7-9, Isa. 40:1-2
‘the Holy mountain’ – the Temple mount. The 3rd Temple will be built and the ordinances reinstated, until the Return of Jesus. Ezekiel ch.40-48, Zechariah 8:9

The great end times story:
This prophecy from the book of the prophet Jeremiah, tells the story of how the Lord will punish the unrighteous by a fire judgement, then how His righteous people will go to live in all of the holy Land. All who by faith, that believe in Jesus will receive salvation. John 3:16-18
He will make a new covenant with them, in order for His people: Nazarene Israelites and those grafted in, to fulfil their destiny to be “a light to the nations”, and to spread the gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. This will be carried out by the 144,000 selected in Jerusalem. Rev. 14:1-7 The precedent to this is in Luke 10:1-20. Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 66:19
God’s people will live in peace and security, in the new country of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of that area promised to Abraham so long ago. Genesis 15:18, Ezekiel 34:24-31, Joel 2:23-27
When they are settled and prosperous, the Lord will motivate a Northern confederation to come and attack Beulah, Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 39:1-2. They will be totally wiped out by the Lord, Ezekiel 38:21-22, Ezekiel 39:3-5, Joel 2:20. This is in order to display His glory and power to all the nations. Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:21
Meanwhile, the rest of the world will slowly recover from the terrible fires and earthquakes of the Day of the Lord’s wrath and they will form a One World Government, initially controlled by ten Presidents, but another will rise to take dictatorial powers. He will make a seven year peace treaty with Beulah, that not all the Israelites agree with. Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:32 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age. At the middle of this time, the World Dictator comes to Jerusalem and forcibly places his image in the Temple. Daniel 11:31 This triggers the 3½ year Great Tribulation, the trumpet and bowl judgements. Those Beulahites who refused any dealings with the ‘beast’, as in Revelation 13:1-5, are taken to a place of safety. Revelation 12:14 1260 days later, will come the culmination of this age – the physical Return of Jesus, Zechariah 14:6-11, Rev. 19:11-21. He will destroy the armies mustered for battle in Armageddon. Revelation 16:16, Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5 Then, He will reign for 1000 years. Great will be that time!
logostelos.info

 

[Job8]

What I see as a major stumblingblock to many conversations here in eschatology is that many believe that the church is Israel, as if nothing at all changed from the OLD TESTAMENT under the Law of Moses to the NEW TESTAMENT by Jesus Christ, the One full of grace and truth.

This in itself is a fundamental shift, and rather than use the term "testament" we should use Old Covenant vs New Covenant (although the words mean the same thing). But that relates more to the the finished work of Christ.

There is another aspect which is generally ignored -- the Church is in Heaven (the New Jerusalem) eternally, whereas Israel (redeemed, and restored) will be on earth eternally.

The church of God isn't Israel.

Some take Paul's reference to the Church as "the Israel of God" to an extreme. It really means all those who have been justified by grace through faith, beginning with Abel (Heb 11:4). This does not nullify God's plan for the kingdom of Israel on earth.

How can men actually think that nothing changed from the OT to the NT with respect to Israel being under the LAW as compared to the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ?

It all began with Origen, Augustine and others who spiritualized Scripture so that whatever applied to Israel formerly now applied to the Church. This practice was perpetuated by the Reformers, and thus we get Amillenialism and other aberrations which simply dismiss all the promises of God to Israel.

The problem is that many Christians do not sufficiently understand that the Church was a mystery throughout the OT and was only revealed to Paul. Even Peter had to be convinced supernaturally that after Pentecost, Jew and Gentile would be in one Body -- the Church of Christ -- which would be seated in the heavenlies.

Secondly, most preachers and Christians have only a vague idea about Bible prophecies as they relate to Israel. There is also prejudice involved, since most Christians are Gentiles. But the truth is that God has one plan for the Church and another plan for Israel, and they will both harmonize in eternity.

 

[Job8]

From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is about God's relationship with one people, His chosen people, Israel.

Only if you choose to simply ignore everything that God has revealed regarding the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body). This how fallacies begin and are perpetuated. Just ignore Scriptures which are inconvenient.

 

[keras]

Job8, you seem to contradict yourself in the two posts above, but yes: there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:21-23
That one people are all true believers in the Lord and who keep His commandments.
They consist mainly of the descendants of Jacob, from all 12 tribes of Israel, still mostly scattered around the world, and those gentiles deemed righteous by their faith.

There will be no separation of them, all will eventually live in the new earth with God, as Rev 21 says.

 

[random person]

Job8, you seem to contradict yourself in the two posts above, but yes: there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:21-23
That one people are all true believers in the Lord and who keep His commandments.
They consist mainly of the descendants of Jacob, from all 12 tribes of Israel, still mostly scattered around the world, and those gentiles deemed righteous by their faith.

There will be no separation of them, all will eventually live in the new earth with God, as Rev 21 says.

Oh, is that right?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:43

The fullness of the Gentiles is actually the fullness of their blessings.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

And this is why Israel is presently cut off and blinded in part.. until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

There's no sense in ignoring the word of God, especially when the Apostle goes to the extent of warning the Christian church of being ignorant of the simple fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

 

[Job8]

Job8, you seem to contradict yourself in the two posts above, but yes: there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:21-23

There's no contradiction whatsoever. The Church belongs to Heaven. Redeemed Israel belongs to earth. Both will be "people of God".

John 10:16 speaks of the Church, as does John 17:21-23. Study Acts 1:6-8. The kingdom of Israel will be restored. In the meantime the Church is being added to. Ultimately "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26).

 

[Danoh]

Job8, I was unable to pm you. Maybe it'll work on your end - pm me on what you meant by "Even Peter had to be convinced supernaturally that after Pentecost, Jew and Gentile would be in one Body -- the Church of Christ -- which would be seated in the heavenlies."

 

[keras]

Oh, is that right?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:43
The fullness of the Gentiles is actually the fullness of their blessings.

Jesus is talking to the Jews who rejected Him, they lost the Kingdom. The nation who will receive it, [not yet] is the new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5, they consist of all the true believers who will gather and live in peace and security in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. The Psalm 83 event.

Job8 - No contradiction to have two peoples of God? Did you actually read John 10:16, John 17:21-23 ? What you think is impossible and nowhere does the Bible say the church goes to heaven. Such a belief is contrary to the many scriptures that exhort us to stand firm in our faith DURING the testing times ahead.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

What you think is impossible and nowhere does the Bible say the church goes to heaven. Such a belief is contrary to the many scriptures that exhort us to stand firm in our faith DURING the testing times ahead.

The church of God most certainly has its citizenship in heaven as believers are seated in heavenly places in Christ.

In fact, Paul tells all believers that they are dead and that their life is hid in Christ with God. That is why he tells them to set their affections on the things which are above and not on the things on earth. (Col 3)