Salvation

tericl2 · Feb 11, 2002

Mandy,

A most excellent post!!! Biblically rooted and logically stated. Thank you, i very much enjoyed reading it.

God bless

Redeemed1 · Feb 11, 2002

Well, now that you have determined exactly what those who believe that one can lose their salvation really means...allow me to once again explain something. I've posted it before, but you continue to ignore it. You think that we believe that our salvation can be taken from us if we sin. That is NOT what we believe. Rather, it is a matter of our free will and choice to turn from Christ and to remove our faith in His atoning death on our behalf.

This belief AGREES with the scriptures you quote. No one can snatch us from the Father's hand. But nowhere does it say that we no longer have the free choice to walk away. But all you keep doing is trying to prove that we cannot lose our salvation by sinning. No one is arguing that point. Please come up with a valid scripture that states that we no longer have free will upon salvation, and that we can NOT choose to deny Christ. And if you intend to say "if we deny we weren't really saved", then you MUST back that up with scripture, because that is a very worn out statement that I have never seen proven.

Mandy · Feb 11, 2002

Tericl2,
I found the article
at www.thebereancall.org.
T.A. McMahan or Dave Hunt is the author of it.
They are both biblically sound.

Satan wants people to doubt where they stand with God.
God wants His children to know they are saved.
Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden light.

Nothing can seperate us from the love of God, nothing.
If God is not powerful enough to keep us, then Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection was not a total victory.
God would not give us a free gift that we are expected to work to keep, obviously if this were the case then salvation would not be free. You cannot trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation, then trust in yourself to keep it. I trust and rest in Him for that which I could never do.

Redeemed1 · Feb 11, 2002

I too trust in Him for what I cannot do. I do not in anyway doubt or question where I stand with Christ. I know for a fact that I am going to heaven.

BUT...if down the road I were to choose to renounce the faith that I initially placed in Christ...then I could and should question my standing. I alone can make such a choice. No one else, including Satan can make that for me. But I COULD make the choice. I still see nothing in scripture stating that I could not renounce my faith, thus giving up my right standing with God.

Thunderchild · Feb 14, 2002

By Christ's death and resurrection, we are enabled to walk by the spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh. If we choose to not do what we have been enabled to achieve, if we trample underfoot the grace of God, we do not retain salvation. For him who goes on to wilfully sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins - and without that sacrifice, salvation is not on offer.

Thunderchild · Feb 14, 2002

Romans 10:13 is part of a VERY long and detailed exposition, one which concludes at Romans 11:32 - Could you explain what Romans 11:22 means, Mandy? Behold then the kindness and severity of God: Indeed on those having fallen, severity. But on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you will also be cut off.

edjones · Feb 14, 2002

11:22- God is love and God is a consuming fire. God loved with a perfect love and hates with a perfect hatred. God is balanced, "Behold the goodness and severity of God."

"If thou continue" - The issue is not individual salvation but gospel privileges today.
"Thou also shalt be cut off" - mission fields are closing daily because the Gentile has not continued in his goodness.

Redeemed1 · Feb 14, 2002

This passage isn't talking about mission fields. It's talking about being grafted into the Branch. If someone is cutoff from the main Branch, they are cutoff from Christ. How do you get that mission fields will be closed out of this scripture?

Redeemed1 · Feb 14, 2002

And...by the way...what is it that will get them cutoff? UNBELIEF. Not one too many sins. It is belief (faith) that secures our salvation, and it will be a turning from that faith that causes us to lay our salvation aside.

edjones · Feb 14, 2002

Your free to believe what you want.

I stick with believing God and His word.

[1]. The saved person has been born of God (1 Jn. 1:13; 3:8). No where does the Bible speak of being born the third time.
[2]. When we become sons of God we are adopted into the family of God (Eph. 1:4-5).

[3]. All children of God are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:16-17).

[4]. The saved person is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Pet. 1:4-5).

[5]. The truly saved person is secure because his hope is within the veil, the priestly work of Christ (Heb. 6:19).

[6]. The believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13).

[7]. The saved are kept in the hands of the Father and the Son (Jn. 10). Thus the believer is just as secure as the Lord is strong. Since He is Almighty, the saved person is absolutely secure.

Hence, we know that all who are really saved are saved forever.

Are you resting in the Power of God?

Redeemed1 · Feb 14, 2002

I too believe and rest in the Truth of God's Word. I also believe that within that Word is the understanding that I continue to have a free will after salvation, and that I can in fact choose to lay aside my faith.

But, I don't (and probably nor do you) worry about losing my salvation, because I know that I know that I know that God is true and Christ is my only means of being reconciled to Him. So I have no thought or intention of turning from what I know to be true. So, I'll see you in heaven brother!!

God Bless you.

edjones · Feb 14, 2002

Why would you want a free will AFTER being saved by the Blood of The Lord Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 6
19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Acts 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

see ya there!
ed

Candidus · Feb 15, 2002

Why would you want a free will AFTER being saved by the Blood of The Lord Jesus Christ?

John 8:31;

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33, They said to him, We are Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35, And if the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever.

36, If the Son therefore make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield youselves servants to obey, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

18, "being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness."

1 John 3:6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, niether known him.

7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. "

1 John 2:24, 25. "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall also continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

Redeemed1 · Feb 15, 2002

Without free will we are robots. We were designed with free will. Nowhere in scripture does it ever indicate that our ability to choose is ever taken away. If God does not FORCE us to accect His Salvation, why on earth, once we've chosen it, would He then FORCE us to keep it? Everything is always a choice.

Thunderchild · Feb 15, 2002

Redeemed 1 - In this you may have a point. While it IS stated in other passages that sin will result in a person being rejected by the Christ, nowhere (as far as memory serves, without checking (I am going out on a limb here)) does it say that a person who is abiding in faith will sin. A person has to resile from faith before he can sin (PERHAPS).

Thunderchild · Feb 15, 2002

"If thou continue" - The issue is not individual salvation but gospel privileges today. "Thou" is the second person singular of "you" - it applies only to an individual.

Use a Bible that you can understand.

edjones · Feb 15, 2002

If you are a Christian, then you should always be conscious of the fact that YOU are not your body; you are INSIDE your body. Your soul has already been redeemed, but you are still waiting for the redemption of your body (Rom. 8:23). Your body is no good, for it is still under the law of sin and death. But remember, your SOUL has been made perfect by the Blood of Christ.

Redeemed1 · Feb 15, 2002

Well Ed, you and I agree on something at last! I agree with your latest post. I guess the point of disagreement comes at the point of having no choice to renounce my faith. Please don't misunderstand me, I do not have any desire to renounce my faith. My only point is that I have that choice. Just as I have the choice to sin or not to sin. I do not believe that my sin condemns me, or that Christ will reject me for my sin. I am covered by the redeeming blood of my Savior. I simply believe that my free will remains a fact after salvation, and that includes the choice to continue in the hope of Christ, or to reject it. To be honest, I have met only one person who was a born-again Christian and filled with the Holy Spirit (by her account), and then rejected it all and turned from serving God. And...I did not know her during the time she claims to have been a believer, so I cannot vouch for the authenticity of her walk. I do believe that if one were to turn and abandon their faith in Christ, it would take a process of very strong deception over time. And I don't that such a thing could happen if a person were connected to a local church, studying His Word, worshipping, and fellowshipping with other Christians on a regular basis. My only argument is that it is POSSIBLE for a Christian to renounce his faith and thus give up his salvation. I also give way to the possibility that I am wrong, and I pray that I am mature enough and that my heart is soft enough to allow the Holy Spirit to correct me through God's Word. Blessings to you.

edjones · Feb 15, 2002

Originally posted by Redeemed1
Well Ed, you and I agree on something at last! I agree with your latest post. I guess the point of disagreement comes at the point of having no choice to renounce my faith. Please don't misunderstand me, I do not have any desire to renounce my faith. My only point is that I have that choice. Just as I have the choice to sin or not to sin. I do not believe that my sin condemns me, or that Christ will reject me for my sin. I am covered by the redeeming blood of my Savior. I simply believe that my free will remains a fact after salvation, and that includes the choice to continue in the hope of Christ, or to reject it. To be honest, I have met only one person who was a born-again Christian and filled with the Holy Spirit (by her account), and then rejected it all and turned from serving God. And...I did not know her during the time she claims to have been a believer, so I cannot vouch for the authenticity of her walk. I do believe that if one were to turn and abandon their faith in Christ, it would take a process of very strong deception over time. And I don't that such a thing could happen if a person were connected to a local church, studying His Word, worshipping, and fellowshipping with other Christians on a regular basis. My only argument is that it is POSSIBLE for a Christian to renounce his faith and thus give up his salvation. I also give way to the possibility that I am wrong, and I pray that I am mature enough and that my heart is soft enough to allow the Holy Spirit to correct me through God's Word. Blessings to you.

Redeemed1,
Its a new subject for me as I never gave it much thought.
It is interesting to consider.
ed

Redeemed1 · Feb 15, 2002

Ed - I too do not give this subject a lot of my time and energy, unless I end up in a forum where such a thing is being discussed. I do enjoy this forum. I become concerned at times, that the Body of Christ is fighting against itself and becoming involved in "senseless arguments", rather than encouraging one another in the Lord. I include myself in this, because I too become entangled in the arguing at times. But the Holy Spirit is usually pretty quick to convict me and set me straight. Sooo, my encouragement for today is:

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that , e who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage each other with these words."
1Thessalonians 4:16-18

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