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Salvation

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 26, 2002.

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  1. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    didnt you ask if i was a mormon?
    cant i ask if you are a baptist?

    i simply thought you had baptist influence on you, i was correct.

    and all that is based on the fact that if you trust in christ you cant fall away? oh i agree with that fact.
    but as you quoted
    "Those who renounce their Christian faith are, with respect to their own conduct and attitude, taking a step that amounts to a fresh public rejection of Christ. When they first trusted Him, they thereby acknowledged that His crucifixion had been unjust and the result of man’s sinful rejection of the Savior. But by renouncing this opinion, they reaffirmed the view of Jesus’ enemies that He deserved to die on a cross. In this sense, “they [were] crucifying the Son of God all over again.”
    if theyve done this
    how can they still be trusting in him to save them?

    hebrews 10.25-29 makes this even clearer. it says clearly that they are fearfully looking unto JUDGEMENT, FIERY INDIGNATION, AND THAT WHICH DEVOURS THE ADVERSARIES, CLEARLY HELL. not a lack of commitment.
    2. peter 2.20-22 also adds to the clarity.
     
  2. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Oh yes - you can lose your salvation (or throw it away, more like). Jesus said that some would believe for a time, but when tribulation arose, they would fall away.

    Were Jesus's references to bearing good fruit of no meaning - or the parable of the servant, a member of the master's household, who did not do what was right - tossed into the outer darkness?

    What of Paul's preaching? What did he preach from the first? That all are to repent and produce deeds in keeping with repentance.

    Look carefully at the passages which so often are claimed to show that one cannot lose salvation.... how often do those claims acknowledge the existence of words such as "to him who endures", "if you do not faint", "if you do not fail. Most of the time, these words can be found in the very verses that are said to support the concept that one cannot lose salvation.

    Somewhere it is written Not the hearers alone of the word shall be saved, but the doers thereof.
     
  3. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
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    Christian
    A lot of people want to excuse those explicit "if" statements to say you can't lose your salvation and they speak contrary to scripture. It's a scary thing, but it is written, (paraphrased) "if you holdfast", 'if you endure", and others alike.

    Amen, Thunderchild.
     
  4. Redeemed1

    Redeemed1 Passionate Worshiper

    711
    +1
    I am of the belief that while God will never take back His gift of Salvation, we always have a free will. That free will enables us to believe or reject. Since it is faith in the atoning death of Christ that brings salvation, I believe it is the rejection of it that would cause the loss of salvation (not one too many sins). I do not believe that if a person places his faith in Christ, receives salvation, and then at some point in his life chooses to believe it all to be a lie, then he never received salvation in the first place. I do not see scriptural evidence of this doctrine. I do however, see many places in the Word that begins with the word "if". I also know the Word clearly states that in the end times many will fall away from the faith. (I realize that it can be debated as to what "fall away" means.) To say that a person cannot choose to reject the atonement of Christ after having first believed it, is to remove our free will upon salvation. I see no evidence that this is the case.
     
  5. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    It sounds like you are implying we are saved by what we do which would equate to salvation by works.
    You fail to consider what the "if" statements really imply.
    When we "hold fast" or "endure" it is becasue we have been changed by the Holy Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 says:

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    God Bless
     
  6. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Salvation can be lost.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 says:

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
    Indeed - IF any man ( actually yes, I prefer "anyone" for this passage rather than "any man" ) is in Christ. Is there something in this passage that says a person cannot stop being in Christ? Or perhaps there is something in another and relevant passage that says a person cannot be lost?

    Like I said, this verse is misapplied all the time. Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking to true believers. Read the language used: " For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,"
    There is nothing to say this is a true believer :confused: :eek: These people were "once enlightened" they "HAVE tasted" (and by the definitions given - having tasted is having experienced)


    I believe 10:25-29 is also talking about someone who was not truely saved.
    Hebrews 10:26 If we go on sinning wilfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. By some mischance it might possibly be said, taking this verse in isolation, without reference to the balance of the passage, that there is no way to determine whether this applies to true or false believers. However....verse 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified , and has insulted the spirit of grace. Come now - the person has been sanctified - is a person being a false brother or a pretend believer sanctified? Or by some mischance it might possibly be said, taking this verse in isolation, without reference to the balance of the passage, that it can only be said that the person is DESERVING of punishment, not that he will be punished. But when the balance of the passage is taken into account: he was sanctified - there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Surely no-one would claim that salvation is possible when there is no sacrifice for sins. Surely no-one would claim that a false believer has been sanctified.

    Jesus did indeed explain the parable of the sower - Some will for a time believe, but when tribulation arises, will fall away By his own explanation - Jesus declares that falling away is possible. Not that falling away is in itself the problem - it is the failing to repent afterwards that results in damnation. Peter fell away, but repented. Judas fell away, and did not repent. Judas was - again by Jesus's own declaration - given into Jesus's hand, but was lost.

    I trust that this also addresses the question of "being unable to renew them again to repentance" - Renewing them again to repentance is the whole point of excommunication. Think about the parable of the prodigal son - while he was off and away in foreign lands, there was no way for him to repent. He had to make the journey back before repentance became possible.
     
  7. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
    +0
    Christian
    Amen, yet again, Thunderchild.

    Scripture is clear and you doing a fine job showing it.
     
  8. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I think you all need to do a serious study on the book of Hebrews. It was written to the Jews who were suffering persecution and desiring to go back to the ways of the old covenant in which there is no longer any sacrifices for sins.
    It is God who saves, because it is only by His sacrifice and grace that salvation is possible in the first place and it is this same sacrifice, power, and grace that keeps us. I trusted in Jesus Christ to save me and I also trust Him to keep me, not myself.
    Works play NO role in salvation, neither does baptism. We are saved to the uttermost by grace through faith alone.
     
  9. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I think you all need to do a serious study on the book of Hebrews. It was written to the Jews who were suffering persecution and desiring to go back to the ways of the old covenant in which there is no longer any sacrifices for sins.
    It is God who saves, because it is only by His sacrifice and grace that salvation is possible in the first place and it is this same sacrifice, power, and grace that keeps us. I trusted in Jesus Christ to save me and I also trust Him to keep me, not myself.
    Works play NO role in salvation, neither does baptism. We are saved to the uttermost by grace through faith alone. Anyone who says differently is preaching another gospel.
     
  10. Redeemed1

    Redeemed1 Passionate Worshiper

    711
    +1
    Let me ask you this: When we get saved, we do so by choosing to place our faith in the atonement made for our sins by the death of Christ (in a nutshell), correct? If you agree with that, then I ask you...was that placement of faith considered a "work"?

    I don't believe it is a work. I do not believe that works will save us, nor will lack of them condemn us. HOWEVER, if our choice to believe, or our acceptance of the gift of grace if you will, allows us to have salvation, then surely our later rejection of that gift, our choice to discount the redemption of Christ and to walk away from the truth...this would be giving up our salvation, would it not? One more question: If you say that a true believer cannot reject Christ later on, then that must mean that upon salvation our free will has been removed from us. Do you believe that Christians no longer have free will?

    "If you continue in the faith", is not a statement about works...it is a statement about the choice to believe, and to continue to live according to that choice. <opinion>
     
  11. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
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    Ephesians 2
    8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9
    Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    "I think you all need to do a serious study on the book of Hebrews. It was written to the Jews who were suffering persecution and desiring to go back to the ways of the old covenant in which there is no longer any sacrifices for sins.
    It is God who saves, because it is only by His sacrifice and grace that salvation is possible in the first place and it is this same sacrifice, power, and grace that keeps us. I trusted in Jesus Christ to save me and I also trust Him to keep me, not myself.
    Works play NO role in salvation, neither does baptism. We are saved to the uttermost by grace through faith alone. Anyone who says differently is preaching another gospel." Amen to that!
    Ed
     
  12. snw7

    snw7 New Member

    99
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    Glad to see Thunder made it over to this board.

    I'll sit back and gladly read your posts on this subject since you are much more well versed at handling your responses. I really appreciate what you've been posting and so far have agreed with quite a bit of what you've written.

    shawn
     
  13. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    You are either saved or lost.

    Ed(sinner saved by the shed blood of The Lord Jesus Christ)
     
  14. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Hey Ed, glad to see ya around!

    Redeemed1, I do not believe that those who are truly saved would renounce their faith and those that say they were saved and turn away were never truly saved. Yes we have the free will to be disobedient and fall into sin, but I believe the true believer comes home like the prodigal son.
     
  15. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    If you continue in the faith, is not a statement about works...it is a statement about the choice to believe, and to continue to live according to that choice. <opinion> In as far as it goes, this statement is correct.

    However, the Bible does also record the following Acts 15 : 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Note the slight difference here, by contrast with the usual statements regarding saved by the grace of God - through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved.

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Does this verse say that believing alone is sufficient, or must confession be made - ACCORDING TO THIS VERSE. Or will someone claim that the verse is wrong? If someone says either faith or grace alone, there is no escaping the fact that the claim is declaring this verse to be in error.

    But now compare Rom 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. with Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? No-one who examines those verses honestly, taking both into account, will blithely state for either view. It takes a long and careful examination to reconcile these passages. It is tempting to attempt to reconcile them by saying that true faith automatically produces good works - but that is not the message of the Bible. So I will set a challenge to both sides in this debate - find the passage that reconciles these verses.

    The debate has gone too long, and neither side shows any evidence that the one is actually paying attention to the other. So alter the tone, see if the passage can be found to bring the three dimensional picture into focus, instead of bickering about which of the two dimensional pictures is accurate. Work together for the sake of the truth, instead of snapping and biting at each other.
     
  16. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    And to those who want a hint to help them in the search:


    Part of the answer has already been stated within this thread - not by me, but by another. :D
     
  17. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
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    Every theological LIE in this age is a Biblical TRUTH misplaced.

    Works are a product of Salvation.


    1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. -did this person 'lose' his salvation?


    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
     
  18. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    mandy said
    "I do not believe that those who are truly saved would renounce their faith and those that say they were saved and turn away were never truly saved. Yes we have the free will to be disobedient and fall into sin, but I believe the true believer comes home like the prodigal son"

    did you read my last 2 posts? both are on this page at the top.
    people who are clearly, undisputably saved, fall away, and some never return.
    you say that a true believer will always return,
    well, due to us being free will agents, there is no way for you to know that. and hebrews 6.4-6 says some simply CANNOT be renewed to repentance.
    not that they cant, but you cant get em to.
    becuase theyve seen it all, done it all, and forsaken it all, there is nothing left to draw them back.

    you must realise that a person who has fullfilled the statements about the people in hebrews 6.4-6, is no baby christian.
    no way.
    theyve even worked in the powers of the age to come.
    theyve even done miracles! and know the good word of god, they know the truth.
    this is no babe in christ.
    how much it would take to draw them away!
    i havent done any miracles, and i dont know the word that well. and i know nothing that could make me disown my father in heavon. not when im in fellowship anyway.
    it would be a long hard process to make a hebrews 6.4-6 christian fall away.
    and once they did fall away, whatever was strong enough to make them disown christ, could possibly keep them from returning.

    you say a real believer will always return. WHY WOULDNT THEY?
    well, god seemed very fustrated and bewildered when the isrealites refused and refused and refused to return over and over and over, yeah its crasy, and its really stupid, but it happens. even god sometimes was like WHY WONT YOU LISTEN!? DONT YOU KNOW YOUR DIEING!? JUST COME BACK! yet many never did.
    isaiah 3.13
    the lord standeth up TO PLEAD and to judge the people.
    that word plead actually means to grapple with.
    like wrestling.
    like your taking someone and violently shaking them, saying WAKE UP! DONT YOU SEE THE TRUTH!?
    yet some never returned. why not? who knows, i just know its not gonna be me.
    becuase he does stand to JUDGE, his people.
    christians do have the possibility of being judged and facing a hell they never needed to face. hebrews 10.25-30. isaiah 3.13.

    actually, in romans it says that the devil can BLIND YOUR EYES TO KEEP YOU FROM SEEING THE TRUTH.
    why couldnt a christian fall away have that same blindness come on them.
    isnt the covenant that saves us and gives us everything we have as christians?
    if we leave the covenant, falling away, then what protection from being blinded do we have?

    the neccesity for obedience doesnt preach a SALVATION BY WORKS doctrine.
    it was james who said that if you do not DO WHAT THE WORD SAYS then your simply looking in the mirror and seeing your dishevelment but not doing anything about it. you cannot only be a hearer of the word.
    and jesus said that if any man come to him, hear his sayings, AND DO THEM, "THEN" (only then)HE WOULD BE LIKE A HOUSE BUILT ON THE ROCK.
    salvation is through obedience, but obedience isnt saving yourself by works.
    we arent saved by works, god does that so that no man can boast, (its his grace that makes your work effective), not that you are able to sit back, drink some tea, and say OK GOD, SAVE ME!
     
  19. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Mandy - While it is true that the way is left open so that one who has fallen away, it is also true that at least some of those who have fallen away will not choose to take advantage of the fact.

    It is also clear that God can close that way against a person - either permanently or temporarily. Judas for instance had been an apostle - According to Jesus, Judas had been in his hand and fallen away. Did Judas return? Jesus said that he was lost.
     
  20. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Judas is a bad example. He was never saved in the first place.
     
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