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Salvation

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by TheBear, Jan 26, 2002.

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  1. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,661
    Atheist
    Private
    I would like the moderators to create this question in a poll, if at all possible.
    In the mean time, please start off your post with a yes or no answer to the following question.

    Can you loose your salvation?

    My answer is no. Nothing can pluck us from the hands of God.
     
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  2. M.O.G.

    M.O.G. New Member

    47
    +0
    agree, Nope!

    nothing can un-seal us either. No mention of taking back the new birth either.



    Eph 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise ,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession , unto the praise of his glory.



    M.O.G. :)
     
  3. imallforgod

    imallforgod Computer Geek at Heart

    23
    +0
    No.

    :)
     
  4. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,661
    Atheist
    Private
    bump
     
  5. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    No.
     
  6. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
    +1
    O man I guess I'll get it for this but thats ok too LOL.

    I do not think a person once they have recieved salvation can loose it. If as the bible saids salvation is a gift;
    -- New King James
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    -- New King James
    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

    Now His word saids this about His gifts;

    -- New King James
    Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


    Now saying that I have to say that no one who has recieved salvation could ever loose it and God wil never take it away.

    BUT and this is where I will get slaughtered I guess hahaha
    I do believe we still have the choice to walk away from it.

    As in Hebrews;

    -- New King James
    Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Also in Revelation;

    -- New King James
    Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


    I do not believe that a person messes up (sins) and has walked away, thats not what I believe the "willfully sinning" is but the willfully is turning away from the very One saving you.
    I want to make clear I do not believe this is a "work" related thing.

    The way I have tried to describe this is in this example;

    If I were in a room that was full of radioactivity and in the center of this room was a lead lined box, if I went into this box and closed the door I would be saved from the radioactivity. Now understand I did walk to the box and I did shut the door but understand I am not able to save myself from the radioactivity the lead in this box is doing that. For if the box would have just been made out of wood I could have still walked into it and shut the door but would not have been saved from the radioactivity.
    Now as long as I stay inside the box I am saved from the radioactivity but if I open the door and walk out I am then again bombarded by the radioactivity and soon I will die in it.


    This is not a matter of me doing something to be and staying saved but a matter of me staying in the place that I am being saved and thats in Christ Jesus.

    See no matter how hard I run or how far I try to run from my salvation I can never loose it because I know and will always know where it is. But if I die without it I die seperated from the only One that could have saved me.


    Anyway I put in my conviction about it LOL I hope everyone still oves me :)

    God Bless
    Chuck
     
  7. Blynn

    Blynn Well-Known Member

    +78
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    No.
     
  8. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    No, but you can walk away.
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Junior Member

    30
    +0
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    yes.

    the gift of God is in Christ, if we don't remain in him, then we don't retain the gift...the life is the vine, we are the branches.


    remeber you are de- branches
    He is de-vine (divine ) > lol

    Christopher
     
  10. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

    165
    +0
    Christian
    Amen!
     
  11. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +170
    Protestant
    Single
    what about those who believe then just walk away?

    answer: yes
     
  12. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    No, you cannot lose your salvation. "They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." (Westminster Confession, Chapter XVII, Section 1)

    If someone "walks away" they were never Christ's to begin with.

    John 10:27-29 is abundantly clear: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
    The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.

    I believe 1 Peter 1:3-5 explains why we can't walk away:
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.

    Peter says we are, "kept by the power of God through faith for salvation..." I believe that says it all.

    God Bless
     
  13. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

    +170
    Protestant
    Single
    thanks for pointing out the scriptures Apologist.
    that surely gives me reassurances but disappointments too (to those who "then" become unbelievers - meaning there's no chance for them)
     
  14. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Blessed-one,

    I don't understand what you mean by, "no chance for them?"
    It is never too late for someone to be saved.
    Are you thinking of Hebrews 6:6 that is so commonly used and misunderstood?


    God Bless
     
  15. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    YES YES YES YES YES!
    BWAAHAHHHAHAA!

    hebrews 6.4-6
    clear picture.

    hebrews 10.25-29 even clearer.

    25.
    not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, AND SO MUCH MORE, AS WE SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.(its getting more and important to live holy, as the day of judgment is drawing near)
    26
    FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEGDE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS. (your attonment is gone, theres nothing left to save you from hell if there is no sacrifice, and its clear that at one there was a sacrifice, they are saved)
    27.
    BUT a certain fearful looking for OF JUDGEMENT, AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. (clearly speaking of hell itself, remember, pauls speaking to the church, to people who are saved)
    28.
    he that despised moses law died without mercy under 2 pr 3 witnesses (here he compares those who despise gods plan or grace to those who despised moses law, and says they died without mercy)
    29
    OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT suppose ye, SHALL BE THOUGHT WORTHY, who hath trodden under foot the son of god, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace?
    (it clearly says you can trod jesus under foot, after youve been saved,
    count the blood of christ WHICH YOU HAD ALREADY BEEN SANCTIFIED BY an unholy thing, and you can do this even though god had grace upon you and would have allowed you to turn back to him)

    this not a picture of man failing to please god, this a picture of a man willingly choosing to turn away from him, willingly choosing to give up his salvation.
    you cant fail god, his grace covers you.
    but you can willingly choose to depart from him forever.
    and hebrews 6.4-6 says that if a mature christian does this to a deep enough extent, you cant even ever get him to come back.
    not really that he cant, but that he wont, because theres nothing new you can show him, nothing hes hasnt already refused and thought was worthless.
    this doesnt apply to a baby christian, but a sound pillar in the church, one who knows much, and is well expereinced, so is responsible for much.
     
  16. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    "IF you abide me, i will abide in you"
     
  17. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    Like I said, this verse is misapplied all the time. Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking to true believers. Read the language used: " For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,"

    There is nothing to say this is a true believer, in fact it sounds like a good description of Judas wouldn't you say? it doesn't say they received the Holy Spirit or the word of God, it only says they have tasted it. Big difference. Here is Strong's definition for "taste" in this verse:

    1089 geuomai { ghyoo’-om-ahee}

    a root word; TDNT - 1:675,117; v

    AV - taste 12, eat 3; 15

    GK - 1174 { geuvomai }

    1) to taste, to try the flavour of
    2) to taste
    2a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
    2b) to feel, make trial of, experience
    3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat
    Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

    I believe 10:25-29 is also talking about someone who was not truely saved. In Matthew 13:18-23 Jesus explains the parable of the sower to the disciples, and in verses 20-21 the description He gives is a parallel to these "believers" in Hebrews 10:25-29.

    Here is what Jesus said: "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles." I think this is an apt description of the person who falls away because they never had any root in Him.

    God Bless
     
  18. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
    +0
    you think to much.
    they PARTOOK of the holyspirit in ch. 6, you dont do that if your not saved. not after pentecost anyway, the disciples being breathed on was a diffrent dispensation.

    and THEY WERE SANCTIFIED in ch. 10, only jesus christ being applied can do that.
    you dont get sanctified before your saved, but saved before your sanctified. christ works from the inside out, you can never be sanctified if your not saved, no way. and it says the blood did this. they had the blood.

    its pretty clear dude.

    i dont think its misapplied at all, read it agian.
    these people even worked in the power of god in ch.6, theres no way under heavon today for a man to do that while unsaved.
    and you cant RENEW them to repentance.
    clearly saying theyve been there before.
    i dont see how in the world you believe these people werent saved.
    are you a baptist?

    and paul wouldnt provoke and unsaved person to good works or love, because that would be salvation by works.
    you dont stress works untill after the foundation of salvation has been laid. he was clearly speaking to saved people.
    as those who despised moses' law were isrealites, those who despise god were christians in that verse.

    so you believe salvation comes in levels or must be proved?
    i just confessed and believed like romans 9 says.
    the rest comes after that.
    and i dont need to prove it to anyone.
     
  19. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
    +1
    My question is then if, starting back at verse 24 the "us" , "we" , "ourselves" in the verses 24-29, are people not saved is the writter also not saved since he is including himself in with these people?

    The thing is back in verse 10:22 we have:
    -- New King James
    Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Now is the "us" being refered to in verse 22 another group seperate from those in verses 24-29?

    Just a thought to meditate on but would like to hear everyones ideas on this :)

    God Bless
    Chuck
     
  20. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +10
    Christian
    So when your beliefs don't agree with mine you refer to ad hominem attacks? I do attend a Baptist church but so what?
    I wrote that last night from the hip without studying it and made a mistake. I was thinking of another verse. My appologies.
    I don't believe these verses teach that a true believer can lose his salvation though. I will let the Bible Knowledge Commentary explain since I think it gives a good answer that is lengthy to type out myself. Here are the comments for Hebrews 6:4-6:

    6:4-6. This passage has been interpreted in four ways: (1) that the danger of a Christian losing his salvation is described, a view rejected because of biblical assurances that salvation is a work of God which cannot be reversed; (2) that the warning is against mere profession of faith short of salvation, or tasting but not really partaking of salvation (The New Scofield Reference Bible, p. 1315); (3) that hypothetically if a Christian could lose his salvation, there is no provision for repentance (The Ryrie Study Bible, p. 1736); (4) that a warning is given of the danger of a Christian moving from a position of true faith and life to the extent of becoming disqualified for further service (1 Cor. 9:27) and for inheriting millennial glory. The latter is the interpretation adopted here. The entirety of these verses constitutes a single sentence in Greek as well as in the English of the NIV. The central assertion is: It is impossible for those who have . . . to be brought back to repentance. Following the words “those who” is a description of the persons whom the writer affirmed cannot possibly be brought back to a state of repentance. The description he gave shows that he had Christians in mind.
    To begin with, he described them as individuals who have once been enlightened. This is a natural way to refer to the conversion experience (cf. 2 Cor. 4:3-6). The writer’s only other use of the verb “enlightened,” is Hebrews 10:32, where the reference to true Christian experience can hardly be doubted. In also calling them people who have tasted the heavenly gift, he again employed familiar concepts related to initial conversion (cf. John 4:10; Rom. 6:23; James 1:17-18). The effort to evade this conclusion by seeing in the word “tasted” something less than full participation fails—in view of the writer’s own use of this word (Heb. 2:9)— to describe Jesus’ experience of death. One might also compare 1 Peter 2:3, which quotes Psalm 34:8.
    The description is continued with the words who have shared in the Holy Spirit. The underlying Greek employs again the word metochoi, used in Hebrews 1:9 of the “companions” of the messianic King, and in 3:1, 14 of the Christian readers (and is also used in 12:8). The preceding expression evidently led the author to think about those who had received the gift of the Spirit as a result of their conversions. Finally, there are also those who have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming Age. Here the thought naturally applies to converts whose instruction in “the Word of God” had given them a genuine experience of its “goodness” and who likewise had known the reality of miracles. The word rendered “powers” (dynameis) in NIV is the usual one in the New Testament for “miracles” and is an apparent allusion back to the experience mentioned in 2:4. In every way the language fits true Christians with remarkable ease. The effort to see here mere professors of the faith as over against true converts is somewhat forced.
    There follows, however, the grim expression if they fall away. But the translation does not do full justice to the original language, where there is no hint of a conditional element. The Greek word parapesontas is in fact a part of the construction to which the preceding descriptive phrases belong. Thus a more accurate translation would be: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted . . . who have shared . . . who have tasted . . . and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.” Far from treating the question in any hypothetical way, the writer’s language sounds as if he knew of such cases.
    Naturally the words “fall away” cannot refer to the loss of eternal life which, as the Gospel of John makes perfectly clear, is the inalienable possession of those who trust Christ for it. But the writer evidently has in mind defection from the faith, that is, apostasy, withdrawal from their Christian profession (cf. Heb. 3:6, 14; 10:23-25, 35-39). The assertion that such a failure is not possible for a regenerate person is a theological proposition which is not supported by the New Testament. Paul knew the dangers of false doctrine to a Christian’s faith and spoke of a certain Hymenaeus and Philetus who said “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Tim. 2:17-18). The author of Hebrews was a solid realist who took assaults against the faith of his readers with great seriousness. And he warned that those who succumb, that is, “fall away,” after all of the great spiritual privileges they had experienced, could not be brought back to repentance.
    The reason is expressed in the words because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace. The words “to their loss” might be better rendered “with respect to themselves.” Those who renounce their Christian faith are, with respect to their own conduct and attitude, taking a step that amounts to a fresh public rejection of Christ. When they first trusted Him, they thereby acknowledged that His crucifixion had been unjust and the result of man’s sinful rejection of the Savior. But by renouncing this opinion, they reaffirmed the view of Jesus’ enemies that He deserved to die on a cross. In this sense, “they [were] crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Since the original Crucifixion was especially the work of the Jewish nation, if the readers were Jews being lured back into some form of their ancestral religion, the writer’s words made a particular point. Their apostasy would be like stepping back over the line again and once more expressing solidarity with their compatriots who wanted Jesus put on the cross. That this was most serious was precisely the writer’s point. Such persons could not be won back to the state of repentance which marked their original conversion to Christianity. In affirming this, the author’s words suggested a deep hardening of their hearts against all efforts to win them back, not to Christian conversion, but to Christian commitment.
    Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.

    God Bless
     
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