Salvation?

[Tangible]

Does the gift of salvation need to be accepted? If so, does does man exercise his free will in accepting the gift of salvation?

Did dead Lazarus need to accept Our Lord's command to rise from the dead?

Perhaps a better question would be "Can natural man accept the things of God?" and "Is the natural man's will really free?" I believe the scripture citations below answer these questions with crystal clarity.

1 Corinthians 2
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 7
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Must we then do something in order to be saved? We cannot. Before we are saved by the grace and mercy of Our God we cannot choose to accept his gifts or his love. Before we are saved we are naturally hostile to God.

 

[PeaceB]

Cornelius and his household were saved, PRIOR to being baptized in water. Unless anyone claims the unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues as the disciples did at Pentecost.
Zaccheus was saved, though he had not been baptised in water. His change of heart brought salvation to him. That was the deciding factor to Christ.

Exceptions.

 

[PeaceB]

Did dead Lazarus need to accept Our Lord's command to rise from the dead?

Perhaps a better question would be "Can natural man accept the things of God?" and "Is the natural man's will really free?" I believe the scripture citations below answer these questions with crystal clarity.

1 Corinthians 2
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 7
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Must we then do something in order to be saved? We cannot. Before we are saved by the grace and mercy of Our God we cannot choose to accept his gifts or his love. Before we are saved we are naturally hostile to God.

Thanks. It would seem that the Lutheran view is the same as Calvin in this respect.

I would say that man's will is free, but he is incapable of choosing God in his born state. God must first enable belief in him through an act of grace, but he then remains free to accept or reject God's call.

This is not a strong area for me though, so I would want to study up on what the Catholic Church allows a bit more before giving a definitive answer.

 

[PeaceB]

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" (40) But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." (42) And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." (43) And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."


So how do you exegete this passage? The thief was not baptized.

I don't think you need to, because God can make exceptions where need be. I don't think that anyone would hold that someone who believes on the Lord and desires baptism, but is unable to be baptized, would be unsaved.

As for the passage, people often say that the thief was not baptized, but actually the text is silent concerning that point. We do not know whether or not the thief was baptized, but it seems apparent from the text that he already knew of Jesus. It is speculation, of course, but there is nothing in the text that rules out the thief from having already been baptized before he was put to death.

 

[JacksBratt]

Do you believe that salvation is lost if a person is not baptised?

I am of the belief that one should be baptized after they have been saved, out of obedience to Christ.

However, if you have admitted that you are a sinner and need Christ, asked for forgiveness of these sins and for Christ to enter your heart and life.....Promise to strive to be like Christ in all aspects of your life...
AND believe this from your heart.........You don't need baptism as some sort of seal on the deal. You are saved and saved forever.

The thief on the cross was not baptized yet he went with Christ to paradise.

There is nothing that you can do to be saved. Baptism is a thing that you do.

You cannot do something to lose that which you did nothing to gain.

People here will argue till the cows come home that baptism is needed for salvation. I say it's not. However, if you are a person who has the desire to do the will of God, accepted that you are a sinner and need Christ's grace to be saved.............why in the world would you not get baptized then???????

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Hebrews 5:9
He (Jesus) became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him!

John 14:15
If you love me keep my commandments

Acts 5:32
The Holy Spirit who God gives to those who obey him

 

[JoeP222w]

I don't think you need to, because God can make exceptions where need be.

That would imply that God and salvation is capricious, if He makes exceptions. I don't find anywhere in scripture where baptism is a requirement for salvation, but rather that, if able, believers follow in obedience to Christ in baptism, as a sign of the inward change that God has done to them. However, I also believe that baptism is not absolute proof that a person is a child of God. There are many who have been falsely baptized and later demonstrate that they never knew Jesus Christ. Which is why I would hold that baptism is not a qualifier (or disqualifier) for faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't think that anyone would hold that someone who believes on the Lord and desires baptism, but is unable to be baptized, would be unsaved.

My guess is that you could find people out there who actually do believe that.

As for the passage, people often say that the thief was not baptized, but actually the text is silent concerning that point.

True. But there is no indication that the thief was indeed baptized or that Jesus' salvation of the thief was based on the thief's baptism.

It is speculation, of course, but there is nothing in the text that rules out the thief from having already been baptized before he was put to death.

I would agree that that is pure speculation. But being a condemned thief, heading for his execution, would it be fair to think that he was baptized? I don't think there is enough evidence to say for certain on that.


The stronger evidence that baptism is not required for salvation is that Jesus did not tell the thief, "Well, you need to be baptized before I can save you." Jesus tells the thief, "today you will be with me in paradise." That is certain and definitive.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I am of the belief that one should be baptized after they have been saved, out of obedience to Christ.

However, if you have admitted that you are a sinner and need Christ, asked for forgiveness of these sins and for Christ to enter your heart and life.....Promise to strive to be like Christ in all aspects of your life...
AND believe this from your heart.........You don't need baptism as some sort of seal on the deal. You are saved and saved forever.

The thief on the cross was not baptized yet he went with Christ to paradise.

There is nothing that you can do to be saved. Baptism is a thing that you do.

You cannot do something to lose that which you did nothing to gain.

People here will argue till the cows come home that baptism is needed for salvation. I say it's not. However, if you are a person who has the desire to do the will of God, accepted that you are a sinner and need Christ's grace to be saved.............why in the world would you not get baptized then???????

Look at Acts 19:1-7, specifically Acts 19:2-4

Paul asked the Ephesian disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit SINCE THEY BELIEVED... v3 No was their response... v4 Paul asks them what they were BAPTIZED INTO then.

Baptism places you into your belief. Look at v5, upon hearing this "That they were to believe in Jesus" they were baptized INTO Jesus name.

Galatians 3:27
For all who were baptized INTO Jesus have put on Jesus

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

So when the scriptures say "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" the implication is the individual(s) will be baptized into their profession of faith. This, the jailer and his household were baptized that night, even at midnight.

Actually even at the end of that passage the scriptures read in Acts 16:33-34 that the jailer and his household were baptized v33 and that he and his whole household rejoiced that they had believed v34. So again scriptures make a clear and direct link between believing and baptism.

Be blessed

 

[dqhall]

Some who attended the Los Angeles Azousa Street Revival of 1906 were saved. Some who hobbled in with crutches and canes went out walking without a limp. People were knowing the Holy Spirit was visiting them. A blind woman cried out praise to Jesus during the service and exclaimed she could see. One day there were 1300 at the Azousa Street meeting. People were standing outside the building as they could not get in.

This video is long winded and not always interesting, but towards the end it is charged with excitement:

During the Welsh Revival of 1904-1905, hundreds of people went to hear Evan Roberts. Bars lost customers. Fewer people were going to jail. People learned to avoid uttering curse words and obscenities.

The leaders of these salvation meetings had spent extensive time studying the Bible and praying.

 

[JacksBratt]

Look at Acts 19:1-7, specifically Acts 19:2-4

Paul asked the Ephesian disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit SINCE THEY BELIEVED... v3 No was their response... v4 Paul asks them what they were BAPTIZED INTO then.

Baptism places you into your belief. Look at v5, upon hearing this "That they were to believe in Jesus" they were baptized INTO Jesus name.

Galatians 3:27
For all who were baptized INTO Jesus have put on Jesus

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

So when the scriptures say "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" the implication is the individual(s) will be baptized into their profession of faith. This, the jailer and his household were baptized that night, even at midnight.

Actually even at the end of that passage the scriptures read in Acts 16:33-34 that the jailer and his household were baptized v33 and that he and his whole household rejoiced that they had believed v34. So again scriptures make a clear and direct link between believing and baptism.

Be blessed

I understand you position. I just agree to disagree.

Far be it for me to tell someone, on the occasion of leading to accepting Christ, that they had better hurry up and get baptized before they should die or be killed and go to hell.....

After all, the church I attend, has people take a course in understanding "believer baptism" before the will baptize them in that church. This is so that people fully understand the process and reason.

Imagine someone being lead to Christ and fearing everyday that they could accidentally die, unsaved, before their baptism.....

I highly doubt that this is, in any way shape or form, a concern. There is nothing that we need to "DO" in order to be saved. It has all been done, by Christ. We just need to accept it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I understand you position. I just agree to disagree.

Far be it for me to tell someone, on the occasion of leading to accepting Christ, that they had better hurry up and get baptized before they should die or be killed and go to hell.....

After all, the church I attend, has people take a course in understanding "believer baptism" before the will baptize them in that church. This is so that people fully understand the process and reason.

Imagine someone being lead to Christ and fearing everyday that they could accidentally die, unsaved, before their baptism.....

I highly doubt that this is, in any way shape or form, a concern. There is nothing that we need to "DO" in order to be saved. It has all been done, by Christ. We just need to accept it.

That is just it... you are baptized into your belief. When they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." The implication was they would be baptized to show that they had faith and repented. That is why they immediately did so. How many churches would baptize a parishioner at midnight? Paul did. Acts 16:31-34

Even in Acts 19 he asks them what were they baptized into... when he found their faith (and baptism of such) to be lacking, he told them about Jesus and they were baptized into Christ.

I know it is not easily accepted, but this is truth. Mark 7:8

 

[JacksBratt]

That is just it... you are baptized into your belief. When they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." The implication was they would be baptized to show that they had faith and repented. That is why they immediately did so. How many churches would baptize a parishioner at midnight? Paul did. Acts 16:31-34

Even in Acts 19 he asks them what were they baptized into... when he found their faith (and baptism of such) to be lacking, he told them about Jesus and they were baptized into Christ.

I know it is not easily accepted, but this is truth. Mark 7:8

So, are you saying, that a person, accepting Christ, but not yet baptized, for whatever reason, is not saved, if they were to die for some reason, before being baptized?

 

[Acts2:38]

I notice that no one said we must be a member of a certain church,

Well, you have to be a member of His church (Matthew 16:18-19; Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12). If you are not in His church, then you must be following a different gospel right? (Galatians 1:6-12)

 

[Tangible]

Thanks. It would seem that the Lutheran view is the same as Calvin in this respect.

Well, not really. The Reformed and Lutherans are both monergists, but we confess different kinds of mongergism.

Lutheran monergism is Sacramental, whereas Reformed monergism is covenantal. Lutheran predestination is single, predestination to salvation, a doctrine of the Gospel. Reformed predestination, the classical version anyway, is double, predestination to salvation and to damnation. In Lutheran theology, both justification and sanctification are monergistic acts of God. If I understand correctly, in Reformed theology, justification is monergistic, but sanctification is synergistic.

I have heard it said that in Roman Catholicism, when speaking strictly of justification, it is viewed as monergistic following the theology of St Augustine, though justification and sanctification are not as clearly delineated as in Reformation (Reformed and Lutheran) theologies, and sanctification plays a much greater role and is definitely synergistic. Is that a fair statement?

 

[Kiwi Christian]

What must we do to be saved?

Good question.

People interpret this, interpret that.

We must define our terms because a mormon redefines the Christian words to mean things totally different.

In Christianity, "salvation" means to live with God the father and Jesus in heaven. In mormonism, it means to live in one of three different levels of heaven that the Bible is silent on.

So, lets see what the Bible says as it doesnt matter what i say, what someone else says, what matters is "what does the TEXT say?".

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Cross-reference this with Gal.2:16 "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus"

1 John 5:13 tells us we can KNOW we are saved or not. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Note the key word "have". present tense.

But, just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.

It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, SDA, UPCI, etc. "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

 

[Thedictator]

What must we do to be saved?

God's Grace because of the Blood of Jesus is the only thing that saves us. But there are some actions the we must do to receive that Grace. ( Acts 2:37 )

1. Hear and obey the gospel ( Luke 11:28 ) ( Revelation 2:7 )( Matthew 7:21-23 )
2. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mark 16:16, 3:18)
3. Have a real or live Faith in Jesus Christ ( James 2:14, James 2:26, James 2:22 ) No one is saved by faith without works, because it is worthless and dead unable to save.
4. Repent of Sins ( Acts 2:38 )
5. Confess that Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9 )
6. Be baptized in water for the forgiveness of Sins and receive the Holy Spirit. ( Acts 2:38 )
7. Live a Christian Life and overcome this world ( Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:10b-11, ) ( Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Colter]

What must we do to be saved?

By faith realize that we are all sons and daughters of the living God, then take up the full measure of responsibility of doing Gods will. Salvation can then be taken for granted.

 

[Tangible]

God's Grace because of the Blood of Jesus is the only thing that saves us. But there are some actions the we must do to receive that Grace. ( Acts 2:37 )

1. Hear and obey the gospel ( Luke 11:28 ) ( Revelation 2:7 )( Matthew 7:21-23 )
2. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mark 16:16, 3:18)
3. Have a real or live Faith in Jesus Christ ( James 2:14, James 2:26, James 2:22 ) No one is saved by faith without works, because it is worthless and dead unable to save.
4. Repent of Sins ( Acts 2:38 )
5. Confess that Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9 )
6. Be baptized in water for the forgiveness of Sins and receive the Holy Spirit. ( Acts 2:38 )
7. Live a Christian Life and overcome this world ( Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:10b-11, ) ( Matthew 7:21-23)

Wow. That's quite a long list of works you think I must do to be saved. I thought you said that only God's grace and the blood of Jesus could save us.

 

[Tangible]

then take up the full measure of responsibility of doing Gods will.

Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

 

[PeaceB]

Well, not really. The Reformed and Lutherans are both monergists, but we confess different kinds of mongergism.

Lutheran monergism is Sacramental, whereas Reformed monergism is covenantal. Lutheran predestination is single, predestination to salvation, a doctrine of the Gospel. Reformed predestination, the classical version anyway, is double, predestination to salvation and to damnation. In Lutheran theology, both justification and sanctification are monergistic acts of God. If I understand correctly, in Reformed theology, justification is monergistic, but sanctification is synergistic.

I have heard it said that in Roman Catholicism, when speaking strictly of justification, it is viewed as monergistic following the theology of St Augustine, though justification and sanctification are not as clearly delineated as in Reformation (Reformed and Lutheran) theologies, and sanctification plays a much greater role and is definitely synergistic. Is that a fair statement?

Thanks. I don't know if the Catholic Church would classify Her teaching as monergist or synergist, with respect to initial justification. From what I understand we have an unsettled Thomist/Molinist debate that roughly corresponds to the Calvinist/Ariminian debate. What would you say based on the following:

THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.​

THE MANNER OF PREPARATION​

Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.​