Salvation?

ladodgers6

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Do you believe you are one of the Elect?

Or not?

Surely you know your own mind on this matter...

You embrace your assurance of Salvation, yes?

If you want to evade answering the question, just say so and I will drop it...

I am simply demonstrating a genuine difficulty with your theory of Election...

Arsenios

You cannot properly demonstrate any issue of Election. Because first of all it is taught in Scripture. Do you agree with this? Or does the Cosmos & Creation run as God watches from a distance? Are you a Deist: A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.
 
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Arsenios

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Election.... is taught in Scripture.
Do you agree with this?

Not as you underestand it...

Or does the Cosmos & Creation run as God watches from a distance?

God is Immanuel [Imminent]

Are you a Deist: A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.

No - That would be silly...

It is your stated belief that you think Christ EARNED our Salvation because He was Crucified on the Cross for us that is giving me trouble...
I hold that it was His Obedience that did not throw it away, as did Adam,
and that He did not "Pre-pay our salvation so that we can THEN obey His Law,
but I hold that He only saved His Own Body,
and that WE are Saved only when we are entered INTO that Body of Christ
in which IS the Kingdom of Heaven
and by which we are all come to the Knowledge of the Truth...

So I disagree with you that our salvation was pre-paid for us because Christ died on the Cross for our sakes... He did die for us, but for us to attain His Salvation, we are to FOLLOW HIM... And that means self denial and taking up out own cross, as He did His Cross, and only THEN will we follow Him...

You seem to think that all that business of repentance comes as a consequence of some kind of pre-paid debit card which He funds for those He has predestined... And then you seem to say you cannot know if YOU are one of His Elect - So what does predestination have to do with anything practical?

Would you forsake your Election for the sake of other sinners?

Arsenios
 
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Danthemailman

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What must we do to be saved?
Acts 16:30 - and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
 
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ladodgers6

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Not as you underestand it...
Please dear friend, share. Sorry for the delay.


God is Immanuel [Imminent]
The Reformed Faith is not Deism. We believe God is involved in the Cosmos, and earth. It does not run randomly.
No - That would be silly...
Thanks for agreeing.
It is your stated belief that you think Christ EARNED our Salvation because He was Crucified on the Cross for us that is giving me trouble...
Why is it giving you trouble?
I hold that it was His Obedience that did not throw it away, as did Adam,
Yes, Adam did throw it away by his ONE act of trespass, and Christ EARN it by ONE act of righteousness.
and that He did not "Pre-pay our salvation so that we can THEN obey His Law,
To clear something up here. God commands we obey His Law always, even when we were sinners! This is why we are under the curse of the Law.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

Now if you really seek the truth dear friend, here Paul is saying no one is justified before God through the Law. Why? Because cursed is everyone who does not continue TO DO EVERYTHING (Every Commandments has to be Perfectly executed without a single blemish of sin) in the Book of the Law. This is Christ became a curse for us!

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The key here Arsenios, is that Christ "REDEEMED US" past tense. John 4:34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.

Here Christ says he came to do His Father's will, and God sent him to "ACCOMPLISH HIS WORK". What is the will of His Father that He needed to accomplish? The answer is found chapters later. John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.(King James)

The is the Father's will that Christ is to accomplish? To lose none whom the Father gave to Christ to save. This is what Christ came to accomplish. I know you will not agree, but I wanted to share this with you.
but I hold that He only saved His Own Body,
and that WE are Saved only when we are entered INTO that Body of Christ
Christ saved us, and redeemed us through his flesh, his obedience in fulfilling the Law, and not abolishing the Law. By becoming a curse for us; meaning taking our place before a Holy God and propitiating God's wrath because of sin. And saves those whom the Father gave Him to save. This is the will of the Father!
in which IS the Kingdom of Heaven
and by which we are all come to the Knowledge of the Truth...
Where the King goes, so does the Kingdom. Where the head goes, so does the body.
So I disagree with you that our salvation was pre-paid for us because Christ died on the Cross for our sakes... He did die for us, but for us to attain His Salvation, we are to FOLLOW HIM... And that means self denial and taking up out own cross, as He did His Cross, and only THEN will we follow Him...
Without Christ there is no redemption or salvation. He did not come to make salvation possible. He came to do His Father's will and to accomplish. That's why Christ says HIs final words on the Cross. "It is Finished"! The most glorious words for any sinner to hear! Knowing how we are justified in Christ; because of His doing of His Father's will. We can how live piety lives, because we have a solid foundation to build upon, in Christ!
You seem to think that all that business of repentance comes as a consequence of some kind of pre-paid debit card which He funds for those He has predestined... And then you seem to say you cannot know if YOU are one of His Elect - So what does predestination have to do with anything practical?

Would you forsake your Election for the sake of other sinners?

Arsenios

I seem to say you cannot know if you are ONE of His Elect? I beg to differ. I did not suggest anything. So I will clarify it for you, so there is no mistake. If you are in Christ through Faith apart from works of the Law; I am justified because of the ONR ACT righteousness by Christ accomplished for me. I being,
made alive by God in Christ, I walk in holiness, because now I have a solid foundation to build upon; Christ Jesus.

One area I do not spend much time in is Predestination. Because God elect according to His own counsel. I do not like to speculate or make assumptions, where the Scriptures do not reveal it. Sorry if I busted your bubble, I am just sharing with you.
 
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ladodgers6

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You talked a lot about God not wanting us to be Holy. Sorry, demanding that we be holy. Here's something I hope you will respond to.

When God delivered His people Israel out of bondage from Egypt, he led them into the wilderness, gave them His Law, and He told them: "You shall be Holy, for I the Lord your God am Holy' (Lev. 19:2).

Please Arsenios, do not split hairs. Just answer why God commanded them by giving His Law to them, and said to be Holy?
 
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Arsenios

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You talked a lot about God not wanting us to be Holy. Sorry, demanding that we be holy.

How sorry are you?

Here's something I hope you will respond to.

Me too...

When God delivered His people Israel out of bondage from Egypt, he led them into the wilderness, gave them His Law, and He told them: "You shall be Holy, for I the Lord your God am Holy' (Lev. 19:2).

Indeed He did, and they turned away from Him...
So was God wrong?

Please Arsenios, do not split hairs. Just answer why God commanded them by giving His Law to them, and said to be Holy?

The meaning of holy is separated unto God...

One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the Glory of God the Father, Amen...

He commanded them to consecrate their whole lives unto God...

A command is not a demand... Huge difference...

Speaking and writing with precision is important...

Please do not denigrate an argument by name-calling it "splitting hairs"...

Holy in the Greek means unworldly... unearthly... clean and pure... set apart from the world...

I read God's word here as more of a promise IF they consecrate themselves to Him...

They will BE Holy because GOD IS Holy...

Now see how I answer your questions simply and straight forwardly?

And how you do not answer my question: "Are you one of God's Elect?"
How about: "Do you KNOW you are saved?"

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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How sorry are you?
I do not want to caricature your beliefs. I ask for the same courtesy. Fair enough?
Indeed He did, and they turned away from Him...
So was God wrong?
Wrong question, dear friend. What's wrong with them?
The meaning of holy is separated unto God...

One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the Glory of God the Father, Amen...
Amen!
He commanded them to consecrate their whole lives unto God...

A command is not a demand... Huge difference...

synonyms
order · instruction · directive · direction · commandment · injunction · decree · edict · demand · stipulation · requirement · exhortation · bidding · request
Speaking and writing with precision is important...
I agree...
Please do not denigrate an argument by name-calling it "splitting hairs"...
I am not being unfair. On the contrary I see in your writings caricatures of what I believe. It seems to me, that you don't take the time to understand what I am saying, so you misunderstand it. That's why I say you are splitting hairs, because I said the same thing you said, but in a different way.
Holy in the Greek means unworldly... unearthly... clean and pure... set apart from the world...
You keep fighting with the translation as if you would rather be right, than seek the truth. It says, "...gave them His Law, and He told them: "You shall be Holy, for I the Lord your God am Holy' (Lev. 19:2).

I was going to ask you HOW is one Holy? But I know you would just either dance around it or avoid it. One is Holy by perfectly fulfilling God's Law. There is no way around that Arsenios.
I read God's word here as more of a promise IF they consecrate themselves to Him...
In a way these passages are gracious, and point to a Promise, that I do agree with. So I will explain the Reformed Faith here. The Law exposes our sins, our condemnation, our bondage to Satan! The Law curses us because we are condemned Law breakers in Adam. But the Law serve as a reminder of God's Promise to Adam & Eve, and Abraham, of a Promised Seed that will rescue them from this plight! The Law drives sinners to Christ, the Promised Messiah!
They will BE Holy because GOD IS Holy...
In Christ we will be Holy, because Christ is perfectly Holy!
Now see how I answer your questions simply and straight forwardly?
Thank you for that. I hope I have been straight forward in my posts?
And how you do not answer my question: "Are you one of God's Elect?"
How about: "Do you KNOW you are saved?"

Arsenios
Yes, I am one of God's elect. And I know because of who Christ is, and what he has done for ME! I believe and trust in God and His infallible Word!
 
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Arsenios

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Yes, I am one of God's elect.
And I know because of who Christ is,
and what He has done for ME!
I believe and trust in God and His infallible Word!

Glory to God! Thank-you for a clear and honest answer...

So you know you are one of God's Elect because of what He has done for you...

The Apostle Paul was much the same as you are...
And what did he do?
He went to the Saints of Good Repute in Jerusalem...
He conferred with them...
And WHY did he do so?
That he might discover
"Lest by any means he should run or had run in vain..."
And this some not-so-few years AFTER having been Baptized by Ananias
and having been given the Holy Spirit by him...
not to mention having received his sight from him...

Now you KNOW you are one of the Elect because of what God has DONE for you...
For Paul, this was not enough...

How does one for whom God has NOT done good things
discover IF he might also BE one of the Elect?

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Glory to God! Thank-you for a clear and honest answer...

So you know you are one of God's Elect because of what He has done for you...

The Apostle Paul was much the same as you are...
And what did he do?
He went to the Saints of Good Repute in Jerusalem...
He conferred with them...
And WHY did he do so?
That he might discover
"Lest by any means he should run or had run in vain..."
And this some not-so-few years AFTER having been Baptized by Ananias
and having been given the Holy Spirit by him...
not to mention having received his sight from him...

Now you KNOW you are one of the Elect because of what God has DONE for you...
For Paul, this was not enough...

How does one for whom God has NOT done good things
discover IF he might also BE one of the Elect?

Arsenios

Galatians1:3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.



Romans 1:1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
 
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Arsenios

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Galatians1:3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Romans 1:1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

How does this reply answer this question?

Now you KNOW you are one of the Elect because of what God has DONE for you...
For Paul, this was not enough...

How does one for whom God has NOT done good things
discover IF he might also BE one of the Elect?

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Glory to God! Thank-you for a clear and honest answer...
You welcome.
So you know you are one of God's Elect because of what He has done for you...
Yes! His Word does not fail. His word will always come to pass. I believe in God and the One whom He sent to save me. This is His Promise.

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
The Apostle Paul was much the same as you are...
And what did he do?
I do not understand this last part.
He went to the Saints of Good Repute in Jerusalem...
He conferred with them...
And WHY did he do so?
Here in Acts 9:15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
That he might discover
"Lest by any means he should run or had run in vain..."
And this some not-so-few years AFTER having been Baptized by Ananias
and having been given the Holy Spirit by him...
not to mention having received his sight from him...
Saul now Paul was blinded for 3 days. Christ revealed the Gospel to him. And told him to preach it to the Gentiles!
Now you KNOW you are one of the Elect because of what God has DONE for you...
For Paul, this was not enough...
You say I am not direct in my answers. How is Christ not enough?
How does one for whom God has NOT done good things
discover IF he might also BE one of the Elect?

Arsenios
Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Hope I answered all your questions? But feel free, ask me what you will.
 
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Arsenios

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How is Christ not enough?

Why did Paul write that he had gone to confer with John and Peter and Iakovos?

Years AFTER he had Jesus' Gospel by direct revelation, he went to them to find out if he was wrong...

So for Paul, Christ's direct revelation was not sufficient...

He went to see Peter and John and Iakovos...

And they affirmed his Gospel as Christ's Gospel...

But feel free, ask me what you will.

Now you KNOW you are one of the Elect because of what God has DONE for you...
For Paul, this was not enough...

How does one for whom God has NOT done good things

(as He has done for you by your own personal experience)

discover IF he might also BE one of the Elect?

Or not...???

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Why did Paul write that he had gone to confer with John and Peter and Iakovos?

Years AFTER he had Jesus' Gospel by direct revelation, he went to them to find out if he was wrong...

So for Paul, Christ's direct revelation was not sufficient...

He went to see Peter and John and Iakovos...

And they affirmed his Gospel as Christ's Gospel...
Please Arsenios, provide the reference points, like I do. Because God chose Paul to go unto the Gentiles and convert them. This is the will of the Father! Paul counts anything else as rubbish, so that He can gain Christ.

Phil. 3:8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

1 Cor. 2:2 2For I decided to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Christ revealed the power of the Gospel to Paul, and now reaches it to the Gentiles.



Now you KNOW you are one of the Elect because of what God has DONE for you...
For Paul, this was not enough...

How does one for whom God has NOT done good things

(as He has done for you by your own personal experience)

discover IF he might also BE one of the Elect?

Or not...???

Arsenios

See Arsenios, its by hearing of the Gospel comes Faith. I believe and trust in God who justifies the ungodly.

Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8
 
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Arsenios

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Please Arsenios, provide the reference points, like I do. Because God chose Paul to go unto the Gentiles and convert them. This is the will of the Father! Paul counts anything else as rubbish, so that He can gain Christ.

Phil. 3:8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

1 Cor. 2:2 2For I decided to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Christ revealed the power of the Gospel to Paul, and now reaches it to the Gentiles.





See Arsenios, its by hearing of the Gospel comes Faith. I believe and trust in God who justifies the ungodly.

Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8

Thank-you my Friend - You have the last word...


Arsenios, the sinner...
Please pray for me...
 
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ladodgers6

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Thank-you my Friend - You have the last word...


Arsenios, the sinner...
Please pray for me...
I want to thank you for the discussion. Thanks for listening to a wretched sinner like me saved in Christ Alone! I want to share something with you, and hope you read it and understand what I believe and why I believe it. Because I feel I did not do justice to the Reformed Faith. This comes from Sinclair Ferguson on the parable of the Prodigal Son. Please read it for me my friend.

The Prodigal Son

The power of this perspective is, of course, already present in our Lord's parable of the Prodigal Son. Even if the parable is read as having only one main point in view, that burden is expressed in several dimensions. In terms of our discussion we might call it, from one point of view, " The parable of the Free Grace Savior"; from another, " The parable of the En-Grace Antinomian/Anti-Law Christian"; from yet another (and in context perhaps the most pointed), "the parable of the Dis-Grace Legalist/Christians trying to earn their salvation through the Law.

The Prodigal contemplates returning home because he knows his needs can be supplied in his Father's home:

But when he came to himself, he said, " How many of my Father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
But while there is the supply of his needs in the home of his father, he is--very naturally--still wrestling with the remnant of the Edenic poison, the God as He-whose-favor-is-to-be-earned LIE. What else could the Father be to such a sinful son?

I will arise and go to my Father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your servants."
As he approaches home, his once-despised Father breaks all social convention (the boy should have been received with a shaming ceremony). Instead he runs to greet him. The Prodigal now stammers out his rehearsed words through the hugs and kisses of his Father:

Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.
But the final rehearsed words, "Treat me as one of your hired servants" are smothered by his Father's embrace! He will not have his son home only on the condition that he "does penance" in order to work his way back into his Father's Grace! He does not need to "repent enough" to be accepted!

Poignantly there is in the heart of the same Father a deep burden for his elder son. He again leaves the house to find him. Luke's introduction to Jesus's narrative makes clear that it is this brother, not the Prodigal, who forms the climax to the story: "The Pharisees and the Scribes grumbled, saying, 'This man [Jesus] receives sinners and eats with them.'" That grumbling is echoed in the complaint of the elder son: "He was angry."

The tenor of the elder brother's response is well captured in the New International Version:

Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.
To which the Father responds in love:

Son,.....all that is mine is yours.
What Jesus unmasks here is a legalistic heart, one that has imbibed the poison of Eden. Such a heart sees the Lord as a slave master and not a gracious Father, as restrictive rather then generous. Everything the Father has is available to him. But the elder son's heart is closed, and as far as he is concerned nothing is his. He was at home, but he was in a more distant place than his younger brother. He thought he had to earn by right, what he could only enjoy by Grace!

What is particularly illuminating is that we are given the impression that only in the context of a lavish display of Grace did the hidden poison of the elder brother's legalistic disposition fully manifest itself. Perhaps the same was true of the Pharisees? And was it, correspondingly, the lavishness of Grace in the Marrow teaching that also caused so much heart irritation? (A debate among protestant members that sparked the Marrow Controversy).

This is thought to be Jesus' best-loved parable, usually because our eyes are on the Prodigal and his Father. But as with jokes, so with parables: there is a principle in both of "end stress." The "punch line" comes at the end. That being the case, the alarming message here is that the spirit of the elder brother, the legalist, is more likely to be found near the Father's house than in the pig farm--or in concrete terms, in the congregation and among the faithful. And sometimes (only sometimes?), it appears in the pulpit and in the heart of the pastor.

Then it becomes dangerously infectious. But what causes it?
Reflection on the Marrow Controversy and the literature; it spawned suggests that a legalist spirit can usually be traced back to the same basic principles, no matter what mask it might wear.

If you like this, I would like to share the Free Grace of Christ offered to every sinner! And I will always keep in you my prayers! Arsenios the Gospel of Paul is the announcement of good news of who Christ is, and what He has accomplished for us! And Christ accomplished this for us while we were still sinners! There is no fine print to read, or stipulations to meets. Christ is the Savior of sinners! Believe this my brother, and you are one of the Elect! This is God's word.
 
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