Salvation?

[Tangible]

That sounds very synergistic to me. What does it say about the conversion of infants in Holy Baptism?

 

[PeaceB]

That sounds very synergistic to me. What does it say about the conversion of infants in Holy Baptism?

It does to me as well. As for infant baptism, I am not sure if Trent (where the other material is from) says much about it. Here is a more recent document, but I would need to work my way through it. Have not read it yet . . .

INSTRUCTION ON INFANT BAPTISM

 

[Thedictator]

Wow. That's quite a long list of works you think I must do to be saved. I thought you said that only God's grace and the blood of Jesus could save us.

First of all this is what the Bible teaches, I believe the Bible above any Denominational man-made doctrine.

I have a question: If I give you a million dollars but it is in the from of a check, and you did nothing to earn the check are you receiving a gift or payment?

Now If you do not cash the check do you still benefit from the gift of the million dollars?

Now if you go to the bank and cash the check and receive the million dollars from the bank did you do work that earned you the million dollars?

Just because there are some things that God asked us to do to receive salvation does not mean we earn it by works.

 

[ladodgers6]

What must we do to be saved?

Trust & believe in God who justifies the ungodly! There is no to do list to be saved. Christ has fulfilled His Father's Will and merited God's justice through Perfect Obedience required in the Covenant of Works that the first Adam broke through disobedience.

But people think that isn't enough, that we need to finish it ourselves through deeds, works, even evangelical obedience. But that is not good news for sinners. Because no sinner will be justified through the Law or any type of works, including evangelical works! Sinners & believers are saved through Grace Alone, apart from works or the Law. That is why the Last Adam came to save His people from their sins, by becoming a curse for them, and killing sin in the flesh for us. Christ came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it for us! This is the good news!

The Gospel of Grace is the announcement of who Christ is, and what He has done for sinners! Repent & believe is not the good news, or what saves us. Its the object of our faith; namely Christ Jesus who saves us! Am I denying good works of the believer here? No, but a lot of people conflate sanctification into Justification, which distorts and perverts the Gospel of Grace! As Paul says in Romans 6,

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old selfa was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set freeb from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

So for the Reformed position we do not deny sanctification of believer. we embrace it. But always trusting in God who is both the Just & the Justifier for the godly. If one confuses Justification & Sanctification, then you get another Gospel which Paul says is no Gospel at all.

The gospel of Christ in general is this: It is the good tidings that God has revealed concerning Christ. More largely it is this: As all mankind was lost in Adam and became the children of wrath, put under the sentence of death, God, though He left His fallen angels and has reserved them in the chains of eternal darkness, yet He has thought upon the children of men and has provided a way of atonement to reconcile them to Himself again...Namely, the second person of the Trinity takes man's nature upon Himself, and becomes the Head of a second covenant, standing charged with sin. He answers for it by suffering what the law and divine justice required, and by making satisfaction by keeping the law perfectly, which satisfaction and righteousness He tenders up to the Father as a sweet savor of rest for the souls that are given to Him...And now this mediation of Christ is, by the appointment of the Father, preached to the children of men, of whatever nation or rank, freely offering this atonement unto sinners for atonement, requiring them to believe in Him and, upon believing, promising not only a discharge of all their former sins, but that they shall not enter into condemnation, that none of their sins or unworthiness shall ever hinder the peace of God with them, but that they shall through Him be received into the number of those who shall have the image of God again to be renewed unto them, and they they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Jeremiah Burroughs

We must have the full message. . . 'deliver the whole counsel of God'. . . . It starts with the Law. The Law of God ... the demands of a righteous God, the wrath of God. That is the way to bring men and women to conviction; not by modifying the Truth.... We must confront them with the fact that they are men and that they are fallible men, that they are dying men, that they are sinful men, and that they will all have to stand before God at the Bar of Eternal Judgement....And then we must present to them the full-orbed doctrine of the Grace of God in Salvation in Jesus Christ. We must show that no man is saved 'by the deeds of the Law', by his own goodness or righteousness, or church membership or anything else, but solely, utterly, entirely by the free gift of God in Jesus Christ His Son. . . . We must preach the full-orbed doctrine leaving nothing out-conviction of sin, the reality of Judgement and Hell, free grace, justification, sanctification, glorification. We must also show that there is a world view in the Bible ... that here alone you can understand history-past history, present history, future history. Let us show this great world view, and God's Eternal purpose.... Let us at the same time be very careful that we are giving it to the whole man ... the gospel is not only for a man's heart, that you start with his head and present Truth to it ... Let us show that it is a great message given by God which we in turn pass on to the mind, to the heart, to the will. There is ever this danger of leaving out some part or other of man's personality... Let us be certain that we address the whole man-his mind, his emotions and his will.

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones The Weapons of our Warfare pg. 21-22

Sorry for the long post, I'll will leave you with this.

A Priest was asked, Father are we saved by Faith or Works? Neither, the Father replied. But by the Grace of God! So believe in God who justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5).

 

[ladodgers6]

I believe that Jesus would say that salvation is by following him (a commitment that is equivalent to what Paul referred to as faith), which means caring for others and showing it in action, humility and repentance, and forgiving others.

I beg to differ. Not even our evangelical obedience saves us. Our evangelical obedience flows from our Justification in Christ Alone! But a lot of people even having a evangelical mind, use a legalistic heart to find assurance. Instead of in the Gospel itself. If believers were to stand on their evangelical works for salvation; these works were not measure up to perfection. We need a Savior, a Messiah, a Mediator to save the ungodly. Because the works of believers are still tainted with sin. Its trusting, believing, and holding on to what saves, which is the Son of God whom God has sent to saves us from OUR SINS. But people get confused and when they sin, they believe that they can out weigh sin with good works, as if they were on a golden scale being judged. But Christ died for the sins of the believer too. Only Christ and His works can save us.

Both Jesus and Paul, while saying that we would be judged by our actions, were clear that we had to start with motivation. Jesus spoke of caring about others and obedience to him, Paul about faith. Without that, we get into legalism, which Jesus and Paul in varying ways condemned.

This sounds like, that Christ did not 'FINISH IT AT THE CROSS". It suggests that if we do not do ENOUGH GOOD WORKS, we will not be saved. And this is called Legalism. Its only by the Perfect Obedience of Christ that we are saved. Our fruits flow from our Justification in the Gospel of Grace.

About Paul, it’s worth pointing out that justification was by faith, but not salvation or judgement. Indeed many scholars will tell you that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement by works.

Paul warned the Galatians about being deceived and following another Gospel. That denied Christ and Him crucified. And pointed them to the Law.

Justified by Faith

15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

My sense is that both aspects have to be there, that salvation consists of a life that includes both proper motivation (faith, obedience and love) and the resulting action, and that we get in trouble if we omit either.

I beg to differ. Because in the Reformed Faith we believe that even the Sanctification is a "FREE" gift from a merciful God. God does not leave us halfway, stranded to fin for ourselves.

30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

So as Paul says in Romans 3:27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Paul says in Galatians that we are saved by Faith or by Works, but it cannot be both.

Note by the way that Jesus seems to have emphasized positive action. That is, for him we would be judged by whether we made a difference for others, and not by whether we sinned, as sin is normally understood by Christians (which is violating rules). He certainly opposed sin, but didn’t speak of people ending up rejected because they sinned too much, but because they were useless to others, failed to obey his message, or because they failed to forgive others.

How is this not legalism?

 

[JacksBratt]

Your good deeds are a reflection of your righteousness. You have to go out and do as many good deeds as possible. Enough so till you're transformed which is what the bible calls sanctification. And Jesus said it's mandatory people do them in order to get into heaven, Matthew 5:20.

Jesus also revealed how He'll judge the world when He returns. It's all by our deeds. Read the entire scripture, there's nothing there about how we'll be judged by our faith. The reason why is because our deeds is the reflection of our faith, James 2:18. Those who did nothing will be sent to hell, Matthew 25:41-43.

Oh man.

You poor soul.


I watched my father in law, God bless him, jump and run anytime he thought he should help or do something. He was driven by the assumption that he must do, do, do, do in order to be accepted by Christ.

What a tired soul he was. What things he neglected in this quest to be sure that he "did" enough.

He was so tired that he could not sit for more than 10 minutes without dozing off.

Yes, he was known by everyone. A great helper, supporter, there at the drop of a hat to hold a door, shovel a lane, carry some groceries, take your coat, pick up something you dropped.............never ever resting or leaving his post.

This is not salvation. This is not "free". This is slavery to works.

Yes, we will be judged by our actions and deeds. However, we will have already be saved. It is our actions that define our character........as saved souls.

 

[Larry Wilgus]

What must we do to be saved?

From your comment, I respectfully hope you aren't saying our salvation is dependent upon behavior?

 

[Larry Wilgus]

I beg to differ. Not even our evangelical obedience saves us. Our evangelical obedience flows from our Justification in Christ Alone! But a lot of people even having a evangelical mind, use a legalistic heart to find assurance. Instead of in the Gospel itself. If believers were to stand on their evangelical works for salvation; these works were not measure up to perfection. We need a Savior, a Messiah, a Mediator to save the ungodly. Because the works of believers are still tainted with sin. Its trusting, believing, and holding on to what saves, which is the Son of God whom God has sent to saves us from OUR SINS. But people get confused and when they sin, they believe that they can out weigh sin with good works, as if they were on a golden scale being judged. But Christ died for the sins of the believer too. Only Christ and His works can save us.



This sounds like, that Christ did not 'FINISH IT AT THE CROSS". It suggests that if we do not do ENOUGH GOOD WORKS, we will not be saved. And this is called Legalism. Its only by the Perfect Obedience of Christ that we are saved. Our fruits flow from our Justification in the Gospel of Grace.



Paul warned the Galatians about being deceived and following another Gospel. That denied Christ and Him crucified. And pointed them to the Law.

Justified by Faith

15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


I beg to differ. Because in the Reformed Faith we believe that even the Sanctification is a "FREE" gift from a merciful God. God does not leave us halfway, stranded to fin for ourselves.

30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

So as Paul says in Romans 3:27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Paul says in Galatians that we are saved by Faith or by Works, but it cannot be both.



How is this not legalism?

I commend you for a Biblical explanation of salvation. Works and behavior nullify our total trust in the behavior of Jesus. Righteousness is not based on what we do, but on what Jesus did for us.

 

[JohnKing67]

Yes I do. Baptism is not optional in the New Testament. It is a command. Do you believe you can go to heaven through disobedience?

Yet, the apostle Paul said he was glad he didn't baptize except only a few. I wonder why?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

What must we do to be saved?

Repent for remissions of sins, be baptized in JESUS name (like straight up say in Jesus name or in the name of Jesus Christ when baptizing someone, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost). You cry out to god enough and he will yeah fill you with Holy Ghost

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yet, the apostle Paul say he was glad he didn't baptize except only a few. I wonder why?

Indeed, if baptism is needed to be saved, hardly anyone got saved as they heard Pauls message. He preached to them and left them in an unsaved state.
Shame on him!!!

 

[TheSeabass]

What must we do to be saved?

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Matthew 10:32-33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Revelation 2:10,26 "....be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life....And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"

 

[Larry Wilgus]

Believe on the Lord, and get baptized.

Believing on the Lord grants salvation. Water baptism is not a qualification. When we believe right, we'll live right.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Believing on the Lord grants salvation. Water baptism is not a qualification. When we believe right, we'll live right.

Wish this was true tbh, the if you believe right you'll live right concept I mean. But I've seen to many who believe and don't live it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Wish this was true tbh, the if you believe right you'll live right concept I mean. But I've seen to many who believe and don't live it

Wish this was true tbh, the if you believe right you'll live right concept I mean. But I've seen to many who believe and don't live it

I've found the opposite to be true. Those who believe RIGHT, best reflect the Christian faith.
There is believing, and believing RIGHT, two different things

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I've found the opposite to be true. Those who believe RIGHT, best reflect the Christian faith.
There is believing, and believing RIGHT, two different things

That's a minority of those who accept god as their savior though. Sure you can find a few but I mean. Believing stems from the word pistis which means to believe and as you point out reflect the faith and be converted and reliable . My point is you don't find enough who fit that criteria by simply believing

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's a minority of those who accept god as their savior though. Sure you can find a few but I mean. Believing stems from the word pistis which means to believe and as you point out reflect the faith and be converted and reliable . My point is you don't find enough who fit that criteria by simply believing

Once again. In my experience, those who believe RIGHT, best reflect the Christian faith.
Sadly, the majority who attend church don't believe right

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Once again. In my experience, those who believe RIGHT, best reflect the Christian faith.
Sadly, the majority who attend church don't believe right

In mine it's the opposite when it comes to people I know, famous people, etc. I find those who are born again tend to show more consistency but anyway I see what you mean. You're referring to those who believe right but what is believing right exactly though vs believing in the believe=salvation scenario

 

[stuart lawrence]

In mine it's the opposite when it comes to people I know, famous people, etc. I find those who are born again tend to show more consistency but anyway I see what you mean. You're referring to those who believe right but what is believing right exactly though?

Just because someone is famous doesn't mean they believe right!

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Paul would agree I think.
Right believing results in right living

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Just because someone is famous doesn't mean they believe right!

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Paul would agree I think.
Right believing results in right living

You didn't get what I was saying. What I'm saying is many celebrities and famous people believe in god yet it's not reflected and people I know as well. Again what is the difference between believing right and believing... isn't believing in god the right thing according to believing=salvation. Also when you use that scripture are you saying they no longer sin?