Salvation vs : service.

[fhansen]

Salvation is God's blood making you righteous.

That is not your obligation, that is God's Gift of Jesus on the Cross.

You obligation, is to "work out your salvation, in awe and wonder".
This is your discipleship.
Its the entire time you are saved, and are breathing whereby you learn how to exist as a Son of God, on this earth, according to the Spiritual Law of the Kingdom of God that is DEFINED as : being "under Grace" and not 'Under Law".

So now it’s not necessary to even have faith? And if you were referring to Phil 2:12 there I’d suggest using a better Bible.

 

[The Liturgist]

You responded to me earlier, based on using Google.
Did you not?
So, now you are walking back your previous words.

Understood.

Umm no? If someone posted a link to Google it wasn’t me.

 

[setst777]

You put a lot of work into backing up what I said.

So you are now a convert?

 

[The Liturgist]

You are not going to drop dead if you have not confessed to your Priest all your sin, just prior to eating the "Eucharist".

Eucharist is a Biblical term for something Jesus Christ commanded us to do to inherit eternal life and as a perpetual remembrance of him, also known as Holy Communion or the Lord’s Supper.

If a Legalists, wants to test God patience, then exist on a Christian Forum, trying to replace the Blood of Jesus, with self effort, (commandment keeping and Law keeping, and enduring, and any other self effort "another" Gospel.
Play that game with believers, long enough, and you'll find a result you wish to God, that hadn't come your way.

I am not a legalist, nor a Pelagian; I do wish you would address my question rather than warning me of dire things that could happen to my soul if I were trying to do things which in fact I am not.

 

[ozso]

I agree with you in that we have to read the Bible in its proper context, but Jesus's message here is emphatic and very clear. We have to continue abiding in Him and remaining faithful to Him if we ever hope to be saved.

I think it's important to remind others that this is not a solo operation. We have the Holy Spirit in us to help us to continue to abide in Him and to remain faithful to Him. To Him, in Him, through Him. We are not just tossed into a pool on our own and told to sink or swim.

 

[ozso]

So you are now a convert?

A convert to preaching commitment, obedience and perseverance, while leaving the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ out of the message? No.

I practice commitment, obedience and perseverance, and I encourage others to do likewise. But to me the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ comes first and foremost.

 

[ozso]

Umm no? If someone posted a link to Google it wasn’t me.

Post #147:

No, I mean among Christian theologians as a whole. Seriously, Google it, and Google the alternate phrases I have suggested, and you will see what I mean.

 

[setst777]

A convert to preaching commitment, obedience and perseverance, while leaving the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ out of the message? No.

I say you must have converted because you use to post messages in defense of OSAS. You were in opposition to my posts regarding a Gospel Faith being demonstrated in commitment and obedience to Lord Jesus to continue in the saving grace of God. Now you appear to be posting just the opposite.

 

[ozso]

I say you must have converted because you use to post messages in defense of OSAS. You were in opposition to my posts regarding a Gospel Faith being demonstrated in commitment and obedience to Lord Jesus to continue in the saving grace of God. Now you appear to be posting just the opposite.

I'm not sure how to respond to that because it's non sequitur to my opinions.

I practice commitment, obedience and perseverance, and I encourage others to do likewise. But to me the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ comes first and foremost. And that in conjunction with the Holy Spirit.

I believe that my desire to pursue commitment, obedience and perseverance is a matter of God working in me, rather than me working for salvation.

 

[setst777]

I'm not sure how to respond to that because it's non sequitur to my opinions.

I practice commitment, obedience and perseverance, and I encourage others to do likewise. But to me the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ comes first and foremost.

There is nothing non sequitur in my post to your opinions.

When I discussed a Gospel faith being demonstrated in obedience and commitment to Lord Jesus being necessary for salvation, you opposed me. That does not mean that salvation was not made possible by the redemption Lord Jesus purchased for us. But that redemption is only appropriated to the person who repents toward God and believes in Lord Jesus demonstrated in following Him.

 

[fhansen]

Atonement does most definitely not mean "at-one-ment"; there is no such thing. The word means "the concept of a person taking action to correct previous wrongdoing on their part." Therefore, the rest of your post, being based on a false meaning, means nothing.

Just to set the record straight the word atone is derived from old english, where the words “at” and “one” were combined to, originally, denote reconciliation or agreement. And reconciliation is why Jesus came, to bring man into the communion with God that he was made for.

 

[ozso]

There is nothing non sequitur in my post to your opinions.

When I discussed a Gospel faith being demonstrated in obedience and commitment to Lord Jesus being necessary for salvation, you opposed me. That does not mean that salvation was not made possible by the redemption Lord Jesus purchased for us. But that redemption is only appropriated to the person who repents toward God and believes in Lord Jesus demonstrated in following Him.

First I don't defend the doctrine of OSAS, I simply discuss it when it comes up. Second I was pointing to the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ because I believe that comes first and foremost. And that in conjunction with the indwelling of Holy Spirit.

I believe that my desire to pursue commitment, obedience and perseverance is a matter of God working in me, rather than me working for my salvation. For over 50 years the Lord has kept me and enabled me to persevere.

Through many dangers, toils, and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

 

[setst777]

First I don't defend the doctrine of OSAS, I discuss it when it comes up. Second I was pointing to the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ because I believe that comes first and foremost. And that in conjunction with the indwelling of Holy Spirit.

I believe that my desire to pursue commitment, obedience and perseverance is a matter of God working in me, rather than me working for my salvation. For over 50 years the Lord has kept me and enabled me to persevere.

Through many dangers, toils, and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

No Christian denies the Cross, the Blood, and the Resurrection of Christ. If they did, they would be rejecting the Gospel, and so would not be in the Faith.

So, to bring that up, as if I, or other Christians oppose the Gospel, is something in your own imagination.

 

[The Liturgist]

Post #147:

Oh, snap, I forgot about that post, but I thought he meant me linking him to something. But yes, I stand by my advice in post 147.

 

[ozso]

No Christian denies the Cross, the Blood, and the Resurrection of Christ. If they did, they would be rejecting the Gospel, and so would not be in the Faith.

So, to bring that up, as if I, or other Christians oppose the Gospel, is something in your own imagination.

It seems like there's such a zeal these days to preach commitment, obedience and perseverance - the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ gets left out of the message.

It seems like there's such a worry about a soft gospel being preached, and that leading Christians to live like the devil, that a cold hard gospel is preached to combat it.

So many verses that I have always seen as a promise and an encouragement, I see being used as a warning that God is going to send His beloved to hell if they don't toe the line well enough.

I'm not directing this at those I don't think it applies to.

 

[setst777]

It seems like there's such a zeal these days to preach commitment, obedience and perseverance - the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ gets left out of the message.

It seems like there's such a worry about a soft gospel being preached, and that leading Christians to live like the devil, that a cold hard gospel is preached to combat it.

I believe there is a worry, because liberal Christianity has taken hold of this nation, to the loss of many Christians who become deceived by this false Gospel, and so are lost.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

I will say this, the NT Scriptures are certainly very clear about faith represented in obedience to Lord Jesus, with many warnings and admonitions throughout, how necessary standing in, enduring, persevering, continuing in, that one faith - that this is the responsibility of each Christian. That is why I listed all those Scriptures for you.

Having the Holy Spirit is no guarantee that you will remain faithful or be saved in the end, unless you faithfully live by the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Quite evident in the numerous Scriptures that I posted to you shows OUR responsibility toward God to remain faithful to inherit eternal life.

What I see on this board, even from you, is that our faith is God's responsibility. So, if a Christian is not living out his faith, and falls into temptation, then not to worry, because that is all God's Work.

That is not what the Scriptures are teaching.

If a Christian deliberately keeps sinning, he is insulting the Spirit of Grace that dwells in him, and so will be condemned with a worse punishment than the unbeliever.

Hebrews 10:24-31 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.
28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy] 32:35 Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

We see many warnings about our responsibility toward God for our faithfulness as being our responsibility, not God's.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 4:5-7 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able."

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB)
21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

 

[ozso]

I believe there is a worry, because liberal Christianity has taken hold of this nation, to the loss of many Christians who become deceived by this false Gospel, and so are lost.

So it must be combatted by going to the extreme opposite end with what sounds like a works based, performance based, cold hard militant gospel.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

I will say this, the NT Scriptures are certainly very clear about faith represented in obedience to Lord Jesus, with many warnings and admonitions throughout, how necessary standing in, enduring, persevering, continuing in, that one faith - that this is the responsibility of each Christian. That is why I listed all those Scriptures for you.

Having the Holy Spirit is no guarantee that you will remain faithful or be saved in the end, unless you faithfully live by the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Quite evident in the numerous Scriptures that I posted to you shows OUR responsibility toward God to remain faithful to inherit eternal life.

What I see on this board, even from you, is that our faith is God's responsibility. So, if a Christian is not living out his faith, and falls into temptation, then not to worry, because that is all God's Work.

That is not what the Scriptures are teaching.

If a Christian deliberately keeps sinning, he is insulting the Spirit of Grace that dwells in him, and so will be condemned with a worse punishment than the unbeliever.

Hebrews 10:24-31 (WEB)
24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.
28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy] 32:35 Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

We see many warnings about our responsibility toward God for our faithfulness as being our responsibility, not God's.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 4:5-7 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able."

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB)
21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

 

[setst777]

So it must be combatted by going to the extreme opposite end with what sounds like a works based, performance based, cold hard militant gospel.

There is no extreme in warning people to remain faithful to be saved by God; rather, this is your disagreement with the Gospel definition of faith.

 

[ozso]

There is no extreme in warning people to remain faithful to be saved by God; rather, this is your disagreement with the Gospel definition of faith.

I believe it can be taken to extremes if there's little to no balance. I think there's a problem if faith and salvation seems to be mainly or only defined as works and performance though self reliance.

 

[The Liturgist]

@setst777 and @MMXX - I get where both of you are coming from ans find myself agreeing with both of your posts, which may be surprising for you, but I view most of what you are talking about as not either/or but both/and, in that the deity of Christ must be acknowledged, for he is our Lord, Savior and God Incarnate, perfectly human and perfectly divine, thus sanctifying our fallen human nature, and at the same time, we must remember in every worship service, as the traditional liturgies do, the fact of Christ’s crucifixion, His harrowing of Hell, His repose in the tomb, and His resurrection, trampling down death by death. For this reason I advocate services on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, so the entire Paschal Triduum is represented, through vespers on Friday, matins, a Eucharist, and vespers on Saturday, and matins, a morning Eucharist, and a vesperal Eucharist in the evening on Sunday.

And Midday Prayer, where possible, or alternately grouping the Third, Sixth and Ninth Hours together and attaching them to Vespers or as a preface to the liturgy, because these services commemorate the arrest of our Lord (and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost) in Terce, the Third Hour, which corresponds to 9 AM but no one prays the hours at the time that aligns with them, then Sext, the Sixth Hour, commemorates the Crucifixion of our Lord, and finally, the Ninth Hour commemorates His death on the cross, where he gave his blood for the New Covenant, as a ransom for many, saving us from Hades, and by defeating death itself with His resurrection, enabling our own resurrection to life everlasting, or to the second death in the lake of fire, at the Last Judgement.

If I am missing something in your arguments, let me know, but I love you both and I love your posts, and would love to unite the three of us in Christian friendship by mediating this dispute, which is clearly important and impactful, given the energy you are putting into arguing your positions. God bless you both.