Salvation vs : service.

[The Liturgist]

God on the Cross is the "whole point'.

He is providing the only way He offers, to accept you.

"the preaching of THE Cross".

=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.

I disagree with many of your views, but this I agree with entirely, and I also agree with @MMXX in agreeing with you on it.

 

[Hmm]

I disagree with many of your views, but this I agree with entirely, and I also agree with @MMXX in agreeing with you on it.

What was the point of the commandments then if we're not meant to keep them?

 

[Servus]

What was the point of the commandments then if we're not meant to keep them?

Whoever said we're not meant to keep them?

I believe what's being said is we shouldn't be keeping them for the wrong reasons.

It seems to go something like this:

Right reason: Because I love Jesus.

Wrong reason: I need to keep myself saved.

 

[The Liturgist]

What was the point of the commandments then if we're not meant to keep them?

So I actually misread his post and made a mistake. I believe in salvation by grace through faith by the power of the Incarnation of our Lord, His victorious passion on the Cross for our salvation, and his resurrection, granting us life everlasting, trampling down death by dearh, but that we should adhere to the Commandments, as best expressed in the Summary of the Law taught by our Lord in the Gospels (“Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself”). Keeping these is a sign of a living faith, as per the Epistle According to James.

I failed to read the part of @Sidon ’s post where he deprecated the commandments et cetera, which I disagree with, so my apologies for that error. I was more agreeing with a comment my friend @MMXX made about @Sidon ‘s teaching, which I agreed with, and which in turn caused me to overlook and misread his posts, and the aspects of his teaching I disagree with.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

What does that mean to you?

I’m anchored on the grace of God in Christ, his labors over me were not in vain…as they would have been if I fell for the lie of works and stumbled over the stumbling Stone just as those did long before us. They pursued it "as if by works", so they failed.

 

[Hmm]

Whoever said we're not meant to keep them?

The OP who said ”commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.”

I believe what's being said is we shouldn't be keeping them for the wrong reasons.

I agree with you but that's not what was said in the quote I gave above.

 

[Servus]

So I actually misread his post and made a mistake. I believe in salvation by grace through faith by the power of the Incarnation of our Lord, His victorious passion on the Cross for our salvation, and his resurrection, granting us life everlasting, trampling down death by dearh, but that we should adhere to the Commandments, as best expressed in the Summary of the Law taught by our Lord in the Gospels (“Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself”). Keeping these is a sign of a living faith, as per the Epistle According to James.

I failed to read the part of @Sidon ’s post where he deprecated the commandments et cetera, which I disagree with, so my apologies for that error. I was more agreeing with a comment my friend @MMXX made about @Sidon ‘s teaching, which I agreed with, and which in turn caused me to overlook and misread his posts, and the aspects of his teaching I disagree with.

I didn't see a problem with it.

How much commandment keeping does it take to get saved?

The usual answer to that, even from "legalists", is commandment keeping won't save a person.

 

[Hmm]

So I actually misread his post and made a mistake. I believe in salvation by grace through faith by the power of the Incarnation of our Lord, His victorious passion on the Cross for our salvation, and his resurrection, granting us life everlasting, trampling down death by dearh, but that we should adhere to the Commandments, as best expressed in the Summary of the Law taught by our Lord in the Gospels (“Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself”). Keeping these is a sign of a living faith, as per the Epistle According to James.

I failed to read the part of @Sidon ’s post where he deprecated the commandments et cetera, which I disagree with, so my apologies for that error. I was more agreeing with a comment my friend @MMXX made about @Sidon ‘s teaching, which I agreed with, and which in turn caused me to overlook and misread his posts, and the aspects of his teaching I disagree with.

I thought it probably was something like that but thought I'd clarify so your venerable stamp of approval wasn't left on such a remark!

 

[Servus]

The OP who said ”commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.”

Will commandment keeping and self effort save a person?

I agree with you but that's not what was said in the quote I gave above.

I think that's exactly what was said.

Somehow "commandment keeping won't save you", gets mistranslated as "you shouldn't keep commandments".

 

[Hmm]

Will commandment keeping and self effort save a person?



I think that's exactly what was said.

Somehow "commandment keeping won't save you", gets mistranslated as "you shouldn't keep commandments".

The quote was ”=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.”

You say that this means "commandment keeping won't save you" and that I've mistranslated it but I disagree.

I agree with you that it's not keeping the commandments that saves you. Only God can do that. But that's not to say that the commandments ”need not apply”. They were given for a reason.

 

[Servus]

The quote was ”=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.”

You say that this means "commandment keeping won't save you" and that I've mistranslated it but I disagree.

I agree with you that it's not keeping the commandments that saves you. Only God can do that. But that's not to say that the commandments ”need not apply”. They were given for a reason.

”=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.” - in obtaining salvation. Cleaning your teeth need not apply as well, although I still recommend the practice.

 

[Hmm]

”=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.” - in obtaining salvation. Cleaning your teeth need not apply as well, although I still recommend the practice.

I found the comment from the OP disrespectful. To say that the commandments including the two greatest ones to love God and to love one another as ourselves ”don't apply” to our salvation is actually meaningless - what does it actually mean? - but I took it as meaning that these are not relevant to our salvation. Do you believe that? Of course anything we do doesn't save us in itself - only God can do that.

 

[Servus]

I found the comment from the OP disrespectful. To say that the commandments including the two greatest ones to love God and to love one another as ourselves ”don't apply” to our salvation is actually meaningless - what does it actually mean? - but I took it as meaning that these are not relevant to our salvation. Do you believe that? Of course anything we do doesn't save us in itself - only God can do that.

The OP clearly believes that salvation is through the cross and nothing but the cross. That's always been his only message and folks have been figuring out any and every way to be offended by it and condemn him for it. Which I'm finding to be more and more unsettling.

 

[Hmm]

The OP clearly believes that salvation is through the cross and nothing but the cross. That's always been his only message and folks have been figuring out any and every way to be offended by it and condemn him for it. Which I'm finding to be more and more unsettling.

Presumably the OP started the thread because he wanted to discuss the topic? I don't think anyone's condemning him or. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[The Liturgist]

I didn't see a problem with it.

How much commandment keeping does it take to get saved?

The usual answer to that, even from "legalists", is commandment keeping won't save a person.

On that point we agree. However, if we truly believe in Jesus Christ, I believe, based on the epistles of St. Paul, that we will make every effort to love God with all our heart and mind and soul, and to love our neighbor as ourselves, because these are a moral imperative given to us by Christ our Savior, and sets us apart from the world as Christians. We will not always succeed at following this moral imperative, which is why repentance is healthy for Christians, but God is infinitely forgiving. Our making the effort, based on the epistles of the Holy Apostles St. Paul and St. James the Just, demonstrates a living faith, and repenting when we fail helps us to discern the body and blood of our Lord.

If we do none of this, we still might be saved by God’s infinite grace and love, for our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Incarnate Word of God, consubstantial with the father, who will judge everyone after the raising of the dead at the last trumpet, declared “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy,” and that those who believe in him will not taste death (John 3:16). However, in neglecting to make any effort to love God above all else, and to love our neighbors as ourselves, we risk having a dead faith, as St. James warns us of in his epistle, and are surely guilty of hypocrisy.

So it is not about keeping the commandments, because we will fail, but striving for them and repenting and receiving God’s forgiveness when we do fail. And when we succeed, the Magisterial Reformers (Luther, Cranmer, Calvin, Melanchthon, and others), the early church Fathers, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and most other people interpret it as a sign of a healthy faith, that we are being helped by God the Holy Spirit indwelling, and we bring peace and happiness to ourselves and those around us. And when we are aware of our sins and have true contrition and a desire for repentance that too is indicative of a living faith, of the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin and Christ forgiving that sin by the power of his triumphant passion on the Cross, where He conquered sin and death.

That is my point, and I feel like @Sidon is ignoring it, and is also in error in saying “I only teach Paul” rather than trying to teach the entirety of divine revelation, all of which is edifying and beneficial, and the words of our Lord and of every Evangelist and Apostle and indeed the holy prophets and patriarchs 5o whom our Lord revealed Himself, and who foretold the coming of the Christ and the resurrection, like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah and Ezekiel, to name just a few, are all extremely relevant, because they validate the fulfillment of the Law and the resurrection that would follow the coming of the Messiah, who to the surprise of many, turned out to be God the Son incarnate in human form.

 

[Servus]

Presumably the OP started the thread because he wanted to discuss the topic? I don't think anyone's condemning him or. Quite the opposite in fact.

I guess I've just been imagining things.

 

[The Liturgist]

Will commandment keeping and self effort save a person?



I think that's exactly what was said.

Somehow "commandment keeping won't save you", gets mistranslated as "you shouldn't keep commandments".

Ok, that could be the source of confusion, because if @Sidon means the latter rather than the former, I agree with him (which is why I am not an SDA, for example; I regard the Sabbath as a prophecy of God’s rest in the tomb, and a perpetual memorial of that, and of His rest on the seventh day, both following the creation of man, and the recreation of man through the Passion on the Cross, on the seventh day, a Holy Day to be sure, but failure to observe it in a strict manner will not impede our salvation, nor will worshipping on the day of Creation and of Resurrection (Sunday), and if I am in error, I trust Christ in His infinite love will forgive me if I believe in Him and ask for His mercy. The Good Thief, crucified next to our Savior, was forgiven by virtue of his faith and reverence for our Lord Jesus Christ, and dined with Him in paradise, despite having transgressed numerous commandments.

 

[Hmm]

I guess I've just been imagining things.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm just saying that it seems to me that everyone, or most anyway, here has merely been trying to get the OP to think about the topic in a critical way which, after all, is how we all learn. We learn by becoming students and sometimes that means stepping down from teacher or messenger mode for a while.

 

[Servus]

Ok, that could be the source of confusion, because if @Sidon means the latter rather than the former, I agree with him (which is why I am not an SDA, for example; I regard the Sabbath as a prophecy of God’s rest in the tomb, and a perpetual memorial of that, and of His rest on the seventh day, both following the creation of man, and the recreation of man through the Passion on the Cross, on the seventh day, a Holy Day to be sure, but failure to observe it in a strict manner will not impede our salvation, nor will worshipping on the day of Creation and of Resurrection (Sunday), and if I am in error, I trust Christ in His infinite love will forgive me if I believe in Him and ask for His mercy. The Good Thief, crucified next to our Savior, was forgiven by virtue of his faith and reverence for our Lord Jesus Christ, and dined with Him in paradise, despite having transgressed numerous commandments.

Sidon is simply teaching Free Grace theology. The overall objection to FGT I've seen, is that it supposedly teaches that we are free to ignore commandments and obedience and engage in copious amounts of sinning.

 

[The Liturgist]

The OP clearly believes that salvation is through the cross and nothing but the cross. That's always been his only message and folks have been figuring out any and every way to be offended by it and condemn him for it. Which I'm finding to be more and more unsettling.

I see where you are coming from. I think the problem for me was @Sidon confused me with language I was not expecting, but if he is preaching what you say He is, I will take your word for it that I am misreading it. What I admire about you @MMXX is your laser focus on the centrality of the Cross in our salvation, and also I like you am an enthusiast of CS Lewis, and I also agree with you that the Way of the Cross is being de-emphasized, particularly in some of the liberal mainline churches which hesitate to even talk about the blood of our Lord for fear of causing offense, and also in many newer churches which seem more interested in “Lordship” than what our Lord actually did for us, and why it matters.