Salvation vs : service.

fhansen said:

At least you have faith in yourself.

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This whole time it's sounded to me like he's been teaching against faith in oneself.

Ligurian said:

I am a follower of Jesus and I believe "faith without works is dead"... not faith is counted as righteousness. Sidon was probably not talking at you.

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True, faith without works is dead. I agree, as you well know from my posts.

The faith that produces the works is what justifies us, just as God accredited righteousness to Abraham by his faith in God.

Blessings

Ligurian said:

I do not believe that "God must first come to and move us-we're lost." From my earliest tiny-child memories I wanted to know who made: Insects... and the plants they crawled upon. Birds... and the skies they flew in. Me... and my family that worshipped nothing. The Creation of God drew me to Him. The Love of God saved me for Him. The Law of God keeps me there. Because I hunger and thirst for true righteousness... not the borrowed kind. The councils of man add nothing to me. I believe the talents are the word of God. The smaller the understanding, the less the talents.

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Well, that's good-we're here to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness in a world that so sorely lacks and dismisses and opposes it in so many ways-and we have the image of God impressed within us even in a fallen state-and creation, itself, appeals to our reason, as a "motive of credibility" as its called, proclaiming the reality of a Creator. But the Creator whom Christ reveals is still beyond our natural ken, which is why He needed to come: that advent, itself, being an act of grace.

Man is lost, no? In need of a Savior, of someone from "beyond" who can answer questions that we don't naturally have answers to. In truth we don't even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where were going, if anywhere. That's the state of being lost. Our knowledge of God in this state is more akin to a long-lost and vague memory. We were made for intimate knowledge of and union with Him and our separation from Him is an anomaly, an offense in creation that constitutes our death, the state sometimes called "original sin" and the reason we must be "born again". Coming to know the true God is the basis of our salvation.

Ligurian said:

Jesus is pretty much quoting Jeremias right here:

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This (genea) generation shall not pass, till all these things be (ginomai) fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

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Yes, I'm sure you're well aware of his prophecy. But I think Paul affirms it too:
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:8-10

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. Rom 3:21-23

Compare:
Jesus declared, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:37-40

MMXX said:

This whole time it's sounded to me like he's been teaching against faith in oneself.

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Yes, and the problem is that he's too sure of himself anyway.

Ligurian said:

It's not my business to accept or reject what belongs to the gentiles.
And I don't need the gentiles' approval of what I believe.

I don't think that John is complete without Matthew and James and the Revelation... and the gospel called Mark as preached by Peter is verifcation of Matthew. I believe John 17:20.

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You do reject all the letters of the Apostle Paul.

As regards the Gospel of John, you may reject that the Gospel of John records that his purpose for writing the Gospel was so that you would possess all that you need to be saved. However, that is why the Gospel of John is called a Gospel.

John 20:30-31 (NIV)
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Ligurian said:

Luke says many things that the pupils of Jesus never said. I don't read him.
One witness doesn't establish anything, according to the Law.



John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My word, he shall never see death.



(sigh) You didn't even write that post to me...
But your calling the words of Jesus "dark light", is completely... without grace.

Like I said, you keep trying to mix the two gospels together,
like you think they're epoxy and resin ..... when really, they're oil and water.

But the good news is, you might finally be starting to realize that this is true.



In Galatians 2:15, Paul's not right at all when he says Peter's like him.
(1) Peter is of the 10-tribes of Israel, not of the 2-tribes of Judah like Paul.
(2) Peter was taught the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven by Jesus who came "only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
(3) Paul says that Peter's under Paul's gospel. But this cannot be true because (a) Peter was told to speak what Jesus spoke Matthew 28:20, which he did John 21:18-19 and (b) Peter went to the circumcision not the gentiles Galatians 2:7-9.

Could it have been Peter who was teaching what Paul called "another gospel" aka "the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven"? We know that Peter was in "Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia", 1 Peter 1:1... Isn't Peter the logical choice for the spreading of this "another gospel" Galatians 1:6?

Two Very Different Gospels

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

They're not epoxy and resin ..... they're oil and water.

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Sidon said:

Its pretty obvious that your theology is not connected to the Catholic Doctrine, or to Mainline Protestant, Theology.
So, are you a JW or a Mormon, as real Christians do not park and preach against Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament.
But you do.

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MSM-anything ain't my holding pattern.
Jamming people into boxes is the way to control them,
when you alredy control both sides of the dialogue.

I'm curious, though... By what God-given right do you dismiss any of the denominations and call some "real Christians"?
I almost feel sorry for you, right now. Because we're not even in the home stretch, and your love already waxeth cold.

MMXX said:

This whole time it's sounded to me like he's been teaching against faith in oneself.

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Because he wants you to believe him. It's kind of a god-complex.

fhansen said:

Yes, and the problem is that he's too sure of himself anyway.

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How do you mean?

Sidon said:

Just so you know...
The "Gospel" was completed by Christ on the Cross, when He said..>"it is finished", long before any letters written by Apostles showed up.
And that includes "the greek text".

Salvation, is God on the Cross, that "pre-dates" any church, any doctrine, any theology, any "epistles" any Pope, or any Protestant..

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What do you have against the Pelasgians of Greece?
Did they write something you want to claim as your own?

Ligurian said:

Finished? All that was necessary for Jesus to literally become
the Passover Lamb slain before the creation of the world.

The original Greek is in (parentheses)...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be (ginomai) fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

Ginomai is "generated", according to Strong's.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now (teleo) accomplished, that the scripture might be (teleioo) fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

That this scripture might be fulfilled:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

This text proves that hyssop was needed for the service of the Passover.
Jesus came to fulfill all that was written of Him concerning His first advent.

Matthew 26:12-13 For in that she hath poured this ointment on My body, she did [it] for My burial. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

This ointment is (myrrh). Myrrh and Frankinsense came from the wise men of (anatole) [Greece literally called Anatolia "the east"]... Smyrna, one of two blameless churches in Asia (anatolia), is (Myrrh). Frankinsense is (libanos), translated Lebanon.

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MMXX said:

How do you mean?

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Well, it involves what we've been discussing continuously. As a rule, anytime we think we already know, we're not open to grow in knowledge; anytime we think we can see, we don't open our eyes further. And we think this of each other.

fhansen said:

Well, it involves what we've been discussing continuously. As a rule, anytime we think we already know, we're not open to grow in knowledge; anytime we think we can see, we don't open our eyes further. And we think this of each other.

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I'm glad you're including others in that evaluation, because that's what I was seeking.

Sidon said:

If the preaching of the Cross seems "divisive" to you, then check your Salvation.

Jesus said that the enemies of the Cross, will be found in your own family.
So, is it a marvel that they are found on a Christian forum, infecting it, ruining it, so that a new Christian needs to stay away?

There is your reality check.

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I never stated or insinuated that the Cross seems "divisive." I said you are divisive. You see again how you keep misrepresenting others. That is continual dishonesty from you.

Again you make divisive statements, and accusations that I never stated. You see why I choose not to discuss doctrine with you anymore? This is something you keep doing in almost every post you make.

Sidon said:

I did more then read it. I studied it and discerned it.

So, let me explain your verse you posted, so that the readers can see it..

James said, to the believers ....."faith without works is dead".
Then James says this, teaching them what he means..
"i will show YOU , MY Faith, by my works'. = spiritual "fruit".

See that?

Why did he say that?
Because when faith is real vs, stagnate and cold, then your life reflects it, as "works". "fruit".

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It's starting to look like you're writing a book and borrowing heavily.
Then twisting that into a new shape so you can get it published.

Not content with having butchered Paul, Sidon went hunting for James. And never found him.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Kinda hard to not know what James is saying, which doesn't mean he won't try.

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Jeremias 38:34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.

GOD Shines Forth! said:

Amen!

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Show me any Scripture that teaches that God guarantees that our faith will never fail?

All the Scriptures are written to Christians as warnings, admonitions, instructions, and commands.

God guarantees salvation only to those who remain faithful - enduring to the end.

You have to reject over half the New Testament to hold onto your doctrine. For instance:

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 4:5-7 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

1 Thessalonians 4:6-8 (NIV)
The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able."

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB)
21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

None these Passages teach us that God guarantees our faith to the end, that we will stand firm, continue, or endure, in the faith, or that we will overcome.

The responsibility is on YOU to remain faithful to inherit the promises of God.

What is for sure is that, those who were in the faith but fell away were actually Christians, because they were in the faith, but later fell away. So, all the “IF” statements are conditional on the Christian to remain faithful to inherit all the sure promises of God.

Sidon said:

Denominations dont define Christianity.

Only God defines It, as "born again".

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People, whether in denominations or not, define it -according to their understanding and interpretation.