Salvation vs : service.

[Sidon]

Well, nonsense and balderdash my good man.

That's the whole point!

God on the Cross is the "whole point'.

He is providing the only way He offers, to accept you.

"the preaching of THE Cross".

=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.

 

[fhansen]

God on the Cross is the "whole point'.

He is providing the only way He offers, to accept you.

"the preaching of THE Cross".

=commandment keeping and self effort need not apply.

Is there some reason you changed the subject midstream? Did you prefer not to discuss what we'd been discussing rather than divert to platitudes, true as they may be?

 

[ozso]

I don’t think he listed any there, but I’d agree.

I meant all over not just here or just one person. None of you has come up with anything I haven't heard before from teachers and theologians I've known in real life. I even got a couple of them to hold a public debate once.

And, of course yours is one more, and on the novel side as well.

Very good repartee, but non sequitur. There is no position on the matter that I am teaching, preaching, or pitching. I've been taking on the role of an inquirer for the most part. Perhaps even with a dash of inquisitor muhaha.

 

[Sidon]

So then according to you Paul was teaching a gospel different than his own?

Can you answer these questions or will you ignore them like you always do?

IN a few post's ive stated to you, and to a few others that Paul's gospel, ..he calls.."My Gospel".
That is singular.
It is : "the preaching of the Cross".
There is no other.

And you keep asking me the same question, based on a symbolic verse about "branches and being "burned", that ive answered at least 3 times.

I told you previously, and i'll tell you the next time you ask me the same ....that the symbolic verse you are quoting, is explaining how to abide or not,= 'In Christ".

See the "IN" part?
So, to abide in Jesus, is to be born again, as that is the only way to become "IN" Christ, which is how you abide in Him.
If you are not born again, you dont abide in Christ, and can't as you have to be born again, to become "IN Christ".

 

[Sidon]

Is there some reason you changed the subject midstream? Did you prefer not to discuss what we'd been discussing rather than divert to platitudes, true as they may be?

See my Thread's Title.

"Salvation, vs Service"

Want to talk about why we dont serve God to go to heaven, as explained by "the GIFT of Salvation"?

Im good.

 

[fhansen]

See my Thread's Title.

"Salvation, vs Service"

Want to talk about why we dont serve God to go to heaven, as explained by "the GIFT of Salvation"?

Im good.

At least you have faith in yourself. So,
"Is there some reason you changed the subject midstream? Did you prefer not to discuss what we'd been discussing rather than divert to platitudes, true as they may be?"

 

[Sidon]

At least you have faith in yourself. So,
"Is there some reason you changed the subject midstream? Did you prefer not to discuss what we'd been discussing rather than divert to platitudes, true as they may be?"

I have no faith in me.
This is why im on a christian forum NOT FOUND POSTING endlessly about works, enduring, or commandment keeping.

You've noticed that all i talk about is "The Cross", "made Righteous", and the Blood of Jesus.

See it?
It right there in front of you, in 40 Threads, and so many posts.

Also, state a question, or a few, that is not a posted cut and paste theology pretending to ask a question, and we can take it from there.
np.

Whenever you are ready.

 

[setst777]

Pauline Theology always stings a Legalist.
The blood of Jesus always offends a self saver.
The devil hates the Cross and he will always find people to oppose it with his gospel of works and commandment keeping.
This is nothing new.
Read Jude.

Divisive statements, and accusations that I never stated. You see why I choose not to discuss doctrine with you anymore? This is something you keep doing in almost every post you make.

 

[BNR32FAN]

IN a few post's ive stated to you, and to a few others that Paul's gospel, ..he calls.."My Gospel".
That is singular.
It is : "the preaching of the Cross".
There is no other.

And you keep asking me the same question, based on a symbolic verse about "branches and being "burned", that ive answered at least 3 times.

I told you previously, and i'll tell you the next time you ask me the same ....that the symbolic verse you are quoting, is explaining how to abide or not,= 'In Christ".

See the "IN" part?
So, to abide in Jesus, is to be born again, as that is the only way to become "IN" Christ, which is how you abide in Him.
If you are not born again, you dont abide in Christ, and can't as you have to be born again, to become "IN Christ".

As expected you ignored every question I asked because you can’t deny that both Paul and Jesus taught that we must refrain from sin and that we are capable of losing our salvation. You never answered John 15:6 you dismissed it claiming that it is a symbolic verse and cannot be used to determine doctrine which contradicts 2 Timothy 3:16.

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

John 15:6 is scripture and you refuse to accept it for what it plainly says because it destroys your theology. Just like Galatians 5:4 and 2 Timothy 2:12 which are not symbolic I might add bit you didn’t want to address those either.

 

[setst777]

"Multi-versions" of Salvaiton, = The devil. Galatians 1:8

"The preaching of the Cross"", Justification BY faith"...>>"faith is counted AS righteousness", and 'you must be born again"....= The GOSPEL of the GRACE of God.

More divisive and accusing statements without merit. No Christian on this board denies that faith is counted AS righteousness, or that one must be born again. You are accusing what you imagine, but not true.

 

[setst777]

I know that old saying about the four gospels, and I don't believe it. For one thing, Luke isn't even a disciple of Jesus, so why would people have believed what he said about Jesus? My answer to that question is that Luke travelled with Paul.

John 3:16 apart from its context... But Matthew 1:21 says Jesus saves His people from their sins; ... are unbelievers His people?

The world is kosmos (the orderly universe) which is currently being destroyed by the world of John 15:19.

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Peter was grieved because He said unto him the third time, Lovest thou Me? And he said unto Him, Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed My sheep.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any [man] will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. ... For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

John 12:47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Esaias 53:8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death. 9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft with his mouth. 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins.LXX

In fact, we don't see James, Jude, Matthew or John mention Paul by name.

I had already stated that I respect your right to reject all the letters of the Apostle Paul, and so I will not try to convince you otherwise.

The rest of the NT possesses the full Gospel, even without the letters of Paul, so you do not err in that regard. Even the Gospel of John itself is sufficient for faith and salvation.

Blessings

 

[Ligurian]

Grace has been considered to be favor, and can be unmerited or merited depending. Although nothing is merited by man in the strict sense because everything, including our very existence, and including faith, and including works, comes from God. And grace is also held to be the life and work of God in us, related to love, the work of the Spirit, and a work we can cooperate with-or not. Either way, God must first come to and move us-we're lost. But once found, once part of His family, we can merit even more grace, more justice or righteousness, by doing His will as we act on the grace given. The Parable of the Talents sheds much light on this. The 2nd Council of Orange defined this understanding, with grace being of absolute necessity in order for man to be turned to God and justified, but with man then obliged to cooperate with God in working out his salvation.

I do not believe that "God must first come to and move us-we're lost." From my earliest tiny-child memories I wanted to know who made: Insects... and the plants they crawled upon. Birds... and the skies they flew in. Me... and my family that worshipped nothing. The Creation of God drew me to Him. The Love of God saved me for Him. The Law of God keeps me there. Because I hunger and thirst for true righteousness... not the borrowed kind. The councils of man add nothing to me. I believe the talents are the word of God. The smaller the understanding, the less the talents.

The gospel as understood since ancient times teaches the necessity of obeying Christ’s commands-and of the need for grace in order to do it. To put it another way, we don’t love as a result of keeping the commandments, rather we keep the commandments because we love. And this love is only possible to the extent that we exist in a state of union with God. This is all outlined and brought together by the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31:33-34:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

This special, intimate, knowledge of God, this union, all begins, from man's perspective, with faith, both a gift and a choice. If and when it leads to love, to the extent that the greatest commandments are fulfilled in us, we obey the law as God desires by actually fulfilling it.

I don't believe that there are two gospels, and that the church got it all wrong from early on. The gospel of Paul is the same as the gospel of Christ, as well as that of John, James, Peter, et al.

Paul's gospel is the cross plus Galatians 3:24-25, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.

Jesus' gospel is the Kingdom and commandments from His Father.
In context, I think we know what Jeremiah's Law is, don't we?

Jeremias 38:33 For this is My covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people. 34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

Jesus is pretty much quoting Jeremias right here:

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Master: for one is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[Sidon]

Divisive statements, and accusations that I never stated. You see why I choose not to discuss doctrine with you anymore? This is something you keep doing in almost every post you make.

If the preaching of the Cross seems "divisive" to you, then check your Salvation.

Jesus said that the enemies of the Cross, will be found in your own family.
So, is it a marvel that they are found on a Christian forum, infecting it, ruining it, so that a new Christian needs to stay away?

There is your reality check.

 

[Ligurian]

More divisive and accusing statements without merit. Not Christian on this board denies that faith is counted AS righteousness, or that one must be born again. You are accusing what you imagine, but not true.

I am a follower of Jesus and I believe "faith without works is dead"... not faith is counted as righteousness. Sidon was probably not talking at you.

 

[Sidon]

A
“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You are told to "rightly divide" the verses.
So, when someone like you can't do this, as proven many times by the fact that you post symbolic verses, that you teach are literal, then you can't be taken seriously, other then to point you out.

Its true that all verses are spiritual, and its true that all verses can be used .
But not all are for reproof. Not all are for doctrine. Not all are for training in Righteousness.

For example. Paul told Timothy to take wine for an upset stomach.
So, is that "training in righteousness"? Is that "correction"

So, once again, you post, but that is not the same as you understanding anything that is related to NT Pauline Theology.
And you'll do it again, as that is what you are, as proven by what you do.
"you shall know them by their works". "fruit".
We see yours., clearly.
Believe it.

 

[Sidon]

I am a follower of Jesus and I believe "faith without works is dead"... not faith is counted as righteousness. Sidon was probably not talking at you.

If you do not believe that "faith is counted as righteousness" then you do not agree with the Reason that Christ died on the Cross.
You are rejecting "the Gift of Salvation".
You are denying "the Gift of Righteousness".

The more i hear you, the more i am hearing "gnosticism".

Will you tell us now that "sin isn't real"?

Or will you tell us that sin is real, and Paul's gospel that teaches that The Cross is the Blood of God dealing with your sin, is not what you believe?

 

[Ligurian]

I had already stated the I respect your right to reject all the letters of the Apostle Paul, and so I will not try to convince you otherwise.

The rest of the NT possesses the full Gospel, even without the letters of Paul, so you do not err in that regard. Even the Gospel of John itself is sufficient for faith and salvation.

It's not my business to accept or reject what belongs to the gentiles.
And I don't need the gentiles' approval of what I believe.

I don't think that John is complete without Matthew and James and the Revelation... and the gospel called Mark as preached by Peter is verifcation of Matthew. I believe John 17:20.

 

[Sidon]

I don't think that John is complete without Matthew and James and the Revelation... and the gospel called Mark as preached by Peter is verifcation of Matthew.

Just so you know...
The "Gospel" was completed by Christ on the Cross, when He said..>"it is finished", long before any letters written by Apostles showed up.
And that includes "the greek text".

Salvation, is God on the Cross, that "pre-dates" any church, any doctrine, any theology, any "epistles" any Pope, or any Protestant..

 

[setst777]

Yes, that would be salvation through Christ alone as opposed to salvation not through Christ alone but us chipping in to complete what's supposed to be a finished work as I understand it.

You say you are not OSAS, yet, in your posts, that is what you are teaching, including the argument you make that I am responding to.

Salvation is by Christ alone; however, the Gospel message from Lord Jesus is that we access that salvation by faith in Lord Jesus through whom that salvation flows.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Lord Jesus made clear that "faith" in Him is not an empty magical word.

According to the Gospel, Faith includes repentance,

Luke 24:44-47 (NIV)
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mark 6:10-11 (NIV) 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 12 They went out and preached that people should repent.

God does not repent for you. Repentance is each person's responsibility that God holds us accountable for.

Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

Lord Jesus describes the repentant faith that He accepts to save in many Scriptures. For instance:

Luke 9:23-25 (WEB) 23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

Therefore, a true faith that God accept to be saved is one of repentance, and then to follow Lord Jesus.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

John 14:15 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments

Only those whose faith is demonstrated in listening to and following Lord Jesus lead to eternal life.

John 10:27-29 (WEB) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father who has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Luke 6:46-49 (WEB) 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say? 47 Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like. 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who hears, and doesn’t do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”

 

[Sidon]

You say you are not OSAS, yet, in your posts, that is what you are teaching,”

This phrase osas, was created by a devout legalist who denies that the Blood Atonement is true.
This dark light replaced the Grace of God, with the idea that the Grace of God is "license".
This false Grace denying theology started long ago.
JUDE...defines it as the "error of Cain".
And these people who teach against the Grace of God, do this so that many can be deceived into the idea that God's Blood is not sufficient, and that the Cross is not enough.

You will find people who are deceived by the "OSAS" cult, to teach commandment keeping and self effort as their "gospel of self saving", which is the Cross rejecting gospel of "works".