Salvation vs : service.

[BNR32FAN]

Not at all.

Christ has redeemed all the born again from the curse of the law.
So, when you teach that obeying the OLD TESTAMENT, is the reason for the NEW TESTAMENT, then your teaching is this.... Galatians 1:8

Since your so fond of Galatians 1:8 I have a question for you. Do you teach this?

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Or what about this?

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.” Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No you don’t teach these messages of Paul. So now who’s teaching a different gospel according to Galatians 1:8? You are.

 

[Ligurian]

And historically the church has taught this since the beginning. Maybe I should know your answer-not sure tho- but do you think these directives are possible to observe without grace? Or how do you define the New Covenant?

God has given grace through the Kingdom Gospel... He's shown us how to "straighten up and fly right". Jesus says His yoke is easy and His burden light. Believe Him? He says that our righteousness has to be more than whitewashing the tomb, or we won't make it into the Kingdom. And when we keep His commandments, we are not standing alone. We are then given the Holy Spirit to remind us what Jesus says and teach us what He means. This is grace because of merit. This is the Kingdom Gospel.

 

[Ligurian]

That is fine. I can respect your choice. We are still just as much Brothers in Christ by a Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus whether you, or I, reject or accept Paul’s letters.

I cannot reject what never belonged to me.

 

[fhansen]

God has given grace through the Kingdom Gospel... He's shown us how to "straighten up and fly right". Jesus says His yoke is easy and His burden light. Believe Him? He says that our righteousness has to be more than whitewashing the tomb, or we won't make it into the Kingdom. And when we keep His commandments, we are not standing alone. We are then given the Holy Spirit to remind us what Jesus says and teach us what He means. This is grace because of merit. This is the Kingdom Gospel.

So we can merit more grace?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which of the Scriptures did I quote teach that we add works or self effort?

Where did I ever write that salvation is by works or self effort? Quote me, or confess that you are a slanderous lying fraud.

You didn’t, that’s just a deceptive tactic he uses to misrepresent anyone who opposes his theology, which is pretty much everyone who posts on his threads.

 

[fhansen]

Paul was before the "historical Church" that you think is the Church.
Its not.

Go to Paul.
Leave your denominational mentality.

The historical church consisted of the apostles and early disciples and followers and continues through to this day. Paul was/is part of it-but it was before him.

 

[setst777]

Your free gift of salvation runs contrary to what Jesus teaches. Imputed righteousness is the polar oposite of what Jesus says. Nor does Jesus even imply that mankind is under the sin of Adam. What He does say is that the bringer of death has been judged... and that ain't Adam or Eve. Blaming mankind for the sins of the serpent is definitely odd.

Paul, just as with the other Apostles, use their own words to teach about the Gospel in their letters to the churches.

The Four Gospels are different in that they were designed to record the life of Lord Jesus, in whom the Gospel message is founded upon - the Word about Christ. That is why the Four Gospels quote Lord Jesus.

Paul uses terminology, such as the salvation being a free gift of God's grace to those who believe; however, what Paul is teaching about that free gift does not teach anything different than Lord Jesus also taught. For instance, John 3:16.

John 3:16 (WEB)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

God himself purchased the salvation for all people through the crucifixion, death, burial, and rising again to glory of Lord Jesus so that, whosoever believes may receive eternal life.

The point is that, if God purchased that salvation for us, then salvation is God's gracious love gift to those who believe. Salvation is a gift of God because we could never pay for, or earn, salvation. God justifies those of faith.

We have all sinned and gone astray, and God laid upon Christ the punishment for all our sins.

Isaiah 53

Lastly, if Paul was preaching a different Gospel then surely the other Apostles (Peter, James, Jude, Matthew, or others) would have recognized this and so we would see some kind of chastisement or warning against Paul. There is not even the slightest such warning that Paul was an apostate in any way, shape, or form.

Blessings

 

[Ligurian]

Jesus said the the KOG is "within you".

Paul teaches that we are "translated from Darkness ...TO Light."

Jesus is the Light of the World.
The born again are Children of THE Light.

Luke says many things that the pupils of Jesus never said. I don't read him.
One witness doesn't establish anything, according to the Law.

Abraham is the father of our Faith.
Abraham was justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law.

So, when you try to flip this into your legalist theology of...>"Abraham did works so that God would have him, then you become defined by Jude as teaching the "error of Cain", and you are defined by Paul as teaching : Galatians 1:8

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My word, he shall never see death.

Its absolutely what i wanted to say to you.

(sigh) You didn't even write that post to me...
But your calling the words of Jesus "dark light", is completely... without grace.

Like I said, you keep trying to mix the two gospels together,
like you think they're epoxy and resin ..... when really, they're oil and water.

But the good news is, you might finally be starting to realize that this is true.

That verse has already highlighted your Theology.
Take that up with God before you meet Him, is my best advice for you.

In Galatians 2:15, Paul's not right at all when he says Peter's like him.
(1) Peter is of the 10-tribes of Israel, not of the 2-tribes of Judah like Paul.
(2) Peter was taught the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven by Jesus who came "only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
(3) Paul says that Peter's under Paul's gospel. But this cannot be true because (a) Peter was told to speak what Jesus spoke Matthew 28:20, which he did John 21:18-19 and (b) Peter went to the circumcision not the gentiles Galatians 2:7-9.

Could it have been Peter who was teaching what Paul called "another gospel" aka "the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven"? We know that Peter was in "Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia", 1 Peter 1:1... Isn't Peter the logical choice for the spreading of this "another gospel" Galatians 1:6?

Two Very Different Gospels

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

They're not epoxy and resin ..... they're oil and water.

 

[Ligurian]

So we can merit more grace?

Two different gospels, Galatians 2:7-9.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[fhansen]

Two different gospels, Galatians 2:7-9.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ok, I’m beginning to understand your position better I think, which is a new one to me incidentally. And I’ll comment later. But just so I understand, because I didn’t see it here as far as I could tell, can we merit more grace, regardless of which gospel? Odds are that I'd agree with you on that point.

 

[Ligurian]

Paul, just as with the other Apostles, use their own words to teach about the Gospel in their letters to the churches.

The Four Gospels are different in that they were designed to record the life of Lord Jesus, in whom the Gospel message is founded upon - the Word about Christ. That is why the Four Gospels quote Lord Jesus.

Paul uses terminology, such as the salvation being a free gift of God's grace to those who believe; however, what Paul is teaching about that free gift does not teach anything different than Lord Jesus also taught. For instance, John 3:16.

John 3:16 (WEB)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

God himself purchased the salvation for all people through the crucifixion, death, burial, and rising again to glory of Lord Jesus so that, whosoever believes may receive eternal life.

The point is that, if God purchased that salvation for us, then salvation is God's gracious love gift to those who believe. Salvation is a gift of God because we could never pay for, or earn, salvation. God justifies those of faith.

We have all sinned and gone astray, and God laid upon Christ the punishment for all our sins.

Isaiah 53

Lastly, if Paul was preaching a different Gospel then surely the other Apostles (Peter, James, Jude, Matthew, or others) would have recognized this and so we would see some kind of chastisement or warning against Paul. There is not even the slightest such warning that Paul was an apostate in any way, shape, or form.

Blessings

I know that old saying about the four gospels, and I don't believe it. For one thing, Luke isn't even a disciple of Jesus, so why would people have believed what he said about Jesus? My answer to that question is that Luke travelled with Paul.

John 3:16 apart from its context... But Matthew 1:21 says Jesus saves His people from their sins; ... are unbelievers His people?

The world is kosmos (the orderly universe) which is currently being destroyed by the world of John 15:19.

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Peter was grieved because He said unto him the third time, Lovest thou Me? And he said unto Him, Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed My sheep.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any [man] will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. ... For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

John 12:47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Esaias 53:8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death. 9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft with his mouth. 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins.LXX

In fact, we don't see James, Jude, Matthew or John mention Paul by name.

 

[Ligurian]

Ok, I’m beginning to understand your position better I think, which is a new one to me incidentally. And I’ll comment later. But just so I understand, because I didn’t see it here as far as I could tell, can we merit more grace, regardless of which gospel?

The Greek words for grace isn't used much in the Kingdom Gospel... seems like Paul's gospel sometimes translates it as "thanks".

charin = accusative case of charis as preposition; through favor of, i.e. on account of:--be-(for) cause of, for sake of, +...fore, X reproachfully.

charis = graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

John 1:16 And of His fulness have all we received, and (charin) grace for (charis) grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] (charis) grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Psalms 45:2 Thou art more beautiful than the sons of men: grace has been shed forth on Thy lips: therefore God has blessed Thee for ever. ... (this is Jesus, in context)

Zacharias 4:7 Who art thou, the great mountain before Zorobabel, that thou shouldest prosper? whereas I will bring out the stone of the inheritance, the grace of it the equal of my grace.LXX

James 4:6 But He giveth more (charin) grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth (charin) grace unto the humble.

Proverbs 3:31 Procure not the reproaches of bad men, neither do thou covet their ways. 32 For every transgressor is unclean before the Lord; neither does he sit among the righteous. 33 The curse of God is in the houses of the ungodly; but the habitations of the just are blessed. 34 The Lord resists the proud; but he gives grace to the humble. 35 The wise shall inherit glory; but the ungodly have exalted their own dishonour.

Grace is probably aka the favor of God. In the KJV OT that's what it's translated.
These days, grace is thought of as unmerited favor, but that's not what it was in the OT. And that's not what it is in the Kingdom Gospel.

Genesis 6:9 But Noe found grace before the Lord God. 10 And these are the generations of Noe. Noe was a just man; being perfect in his generation, Noe was well-pleasing to God.LXX

Same thing is true of Abram... because if he hadn't done what God said, he would've failed the test... and we wouldn't be talking about Abraham today. Yeah, I know what Paul says... but I also know the opposite thing that James says. Two different gospels. Those who aren't Jesus' sheep can't keep His commandments?... or maybe they've never tried. There are the commandments of Jesus that tell us to forgive those who sin against us, and to make peace with those against whom we've sinned... i.o.w, be sorry and humble ourselves in order to apologize. This one verse dismissses the possibility that once saved is always saved... if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you... right in the middle of your unmerited favor, God won't forgive you. Two different gospels. For me, grace for grace = to be forgiven, you must forgive.

 

[fhansen]

Grace is probably aka the favor of God. In the KJV OT that's what it's translated.
These days, grace is thought of as unmerited favor, but that's not what it was in the OT. And that's not what it is in the Kingdom Gospel.

Grace has been considered to be favor, and can be unmerited or merited depending. Although nothing is merited by man in the strict sense because everything, including our very existence, and including faith, and including works, comes from God. And grace is also held to be the life and work of God in us, related to love, the work of the Spirit, and a work we can cooperate with-or not. Either way, God must first come to and move us-we're lost. But once found, once part of His family, we can merit even more grace, more justice or righteousness, by doing His will as we act on the grace given. The Parable of the Talents sheds much light on this. The 2nd Council of Orange defined this understanding, with grace being of absolute necessity in order for man to be turned to God and justified, but with man then obliged to cooperate with God in working out his salvation.

wo different gospels, Galatians 2:7-9.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The gospel as understood since ancient times teaches the necessity of obeying Christ’s commands-and of the need for grace in order to do it. To put it another way, we don’t love as a result of keeping the commandments, rather we keep the commandments because we love. And this love is only possible to the extent that we exist in a state of union with God. This is all outlined and brought together by the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31:33-34:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

This special, intimate, knowledge of God, this union, all begins, from man's perspective, with faith, both a gift and a choice. If and when it leads to love, to the extent that the greatest commandments are fulfilled in us, we obey the law as God desires by actually fulfilling it.

I don't believe that there are two gospels, and that the church got it all wrong from early on. The gospel of Paul is the same as the gospel of Christ, as well as that of John, James, Peter, et al.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You didn’t, that’s just a deceptive tactic he uses to misrepresent anyone who opposes his theology, which is pretty much everyone who posts on his threads.

Well the OP is saying salvation is through Christ alone, so it seems a reasonable conclusion that those who keep arguing are saying otherwise.

 

[setst777]

Well the OP is saying salvation is through Christ alone, so it seems a reasonable conclusion that those who keep arguing are saying otherwise.

Your reasonable conclusion is simplistic and flawed, as no one is arguing the validity of the statement:

"Salvation is through Christ alone"

What is being argued is how that statement is being doctrinally defined by the poster.

You have to read the context of the posts. When doing so, we find that there exists different and opposing doctrines regarding that statement:

"Salvation is through Christ alone"

Surely every Christian agrees with that statement, but what is the doctrine that the poster uses to define that statement. That is the question.

So, the reasonable conclusion is that no one who is arguing otherwise is denying the statement, but rather, how a poster defines what is meant by that statement. You have to read the context of the posts to find out.

The question is, what does the poster mean by that statement?

Does that person mean that salvation is through Christ alone, and has nothing to do with faith?

Does it mean that Christ saves everyone - universal salvation?

Does the person define that statement according to OSAS?

Only by actually reading the context of the posts can we understand what is meant.

So to say that

"it seems a reasonable conclusion that those who keep arguing are saying otherwise."

is in error. What is being argued here is, not the statement:

"Salvation is through Christ alone"

But rather, what is being argued is one's doctrine regarding that statement.

 

[Ceallaigh]

As usual that sounded rather convoluted. But I suppose that's a good way to battle simplicity.

 

[fhansen]

As usual that sounded rather convoluted. But I suppose that's a good way to battle simplicity.

Thought it was pretty straight forward myself.

 

[Sidon]

Sidon, I see no reason to respond to you further. You are divisive, and you continually misrepresent what others write. You don't even remember what you wrote.

I am patient, but patience has its limits.

Pauline Theology always stings a Legalist.
The blood of Jesus always offends a self saver.
The devil hates the Cross and he will always find people to oppose it with his gospel of works and commandment keeping.
This is nothing new.
Read Jude.

 

[Sidon]

Since your so fond of Galatians 1:8 I have a question for you. Do you teach this?

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding,

People who have their "understanding darkened" are those who Paul describes as "Blinded by Satan".
If you read my 2 Threads posted that describe them, you'll note that they are described as "dark lights".
A person who is a dark light, is Galatians 1:8

How do you spot them?

1.) They will teach commandment keeping and self effort in place of the Grace of God.

2.) They will teach that they can lose their salvation.

3. ) They are fallen from Grace.

 

[Sidon]

The historical church consisted of the apostles and early disciples

Yes and no...

See , the "church" is not the building.
The "church" is the body of Christ.
This is the born again, individually who are each..>>"the Temple of the Holy Spirit".

So, the "church" is literally each born again person.