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servant7777

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so that is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God insofar as the Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so that is also the sense that we are sons of God when we are partaking in his nature through following his example by walking in the same way he walked, which is why those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God. The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature, so that is also why in Romans 8:4-14 that those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law.



If Jesus walked in the law as Soyeong keeps insisting, we would be dead in our sins.

It is only by the very thing Soyeong omits, that gives us example how to escape the death ( involved for all caught in the curse of the law)


Here it is:



Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
 
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Soyeong

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I simply do not agree with your definition of faith, which from what i have gathered from your post.

Is defined as, faith is obedience and it looks like you are saying obedience to the commandments.

I define faith as a conviction something is true. In the case of The Bible, as applied to receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

It is the conviction that God's promise, that anyone who trust in The Messiah will receive God''s free gift of Eternal Life and becomes a born again child of God.

If you disagree with my definition of faith that I supported with numerous quotes from the Bible without explaining why you think that I have misunderstood those verses, then you are also disagreeing with those verses.

I agree that faith is a conviction that something is true, furthermore, God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142), the sum of God's word is truth (Psalms 119:160), the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14), and Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), so he was claiming to be the living embodiment of the law, which is evidenced by the fact that he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the personification of God's nature expressed through living in obedience to God's law, or in other words, he is the physical manifestation of God's law, so obedience to the law of which he is the living embodiment is the way to trust in the nature of who he is, or other words, the way to live by faith in him and the way to express the conviction that God's law is truth. We are representatives of Christ, so way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so when we do what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about what we believe to be true about the nature of who Christ is, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:13). Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to put our faith in God's law is to put our faith in God.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where them doing the work of driving it does not detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was 100% given to them as a gift, but rather that is the way for them to receive it. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience through faith (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 19:17).

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were sons of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did, in Galatians 3:26-29, being sons of Abraham is equated with being sons of God in Christ through faith, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. A chip off the old block is someone who has the same character or nature as their Father, so that is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the sense that we are children of God when we are partaking in his nature through following his example of obedience to God's law, which is why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to it are not born again as children of God (1 John 3:4-10).
 
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servant7777

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If you disagree with my definition of faith that I supported with numerous quotes from the Bible without explaining why you think that I have misunderstood those verses, then you are also disagreeing with those verses.


You were answered immediately with all the misunderstandings your law teaching has ( neither understanding what you affirm)

But what I don't understand is why Gentile believers cant see it is strifeful teaching and purpose and how them arguing with you is joining in with your strife.
 
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servant7777

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As for the title, salvation is an experience.




Salvation is in a name.


Here it is:


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
 
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d taylor

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If you disagree with my definition of faith that I supported with numerous quotes from the Bible without explaining why you think that I have misunderstood those verses, then you are also disagreeing with those verses.

I agree that faith is a conviction that something is true, furthermore, God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142), the sum of God's word is truth (Psalms 119:160), the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14), and Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), so he was claiming to be the living embodiment of the law, which is evidenced by the fact that he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the personification of God's nature expressed through living in obedience to God's law, or in other words, he is the physical manifestation of God's law, so obedience to the law of which he is the living embodiment is the way to trust in the nature of who he is, or other words, the way to live by faith in him and the way to express the conviction that God's law is truth. We are representatives of Christ, so way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so when we do what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about what we believe to be true about the nature of who Christ is, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:13). Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to put our faith in God's law is to put our faith in God.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where them doing the work of driving it does not detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was 100% given to them as a gift, but rather that is the way for them to receive it. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience through faith (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 19:17).

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were sons of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did, in Galatians 3:26-29, being sons of Abraham is equated with being sons of God in Christ through faith, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. A chip off the old block is someone who has the same character or nature as their Father, so that is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the sense that we are children of God when we are partaking in his nature through following his example of obedience to God's law, which is why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to it are not born again as children of God (1 John 3:4-10).

You seem having trouble separating the life of a believer and how a believer should live. With how an unbeliever receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

One (how an unbeliever receives God's free gift of Eternal Life) is something that happens in a moment of time, by faith in the Messiah

Where the other (how a believer should live) the disciplined life and growth of a believer trying to walk in obedience to God. Not to receive Eternal Life but to be rewarded at the judgment seat of The Messiah for a well lived life of a believer.

These two are not the same, one as i have said before is received by faith. While the other is acquired by a disciplined obedient life lived in service to God.

Condition and Consequence: A Key to Correct Interpretation – Grace Evangelical Society
 
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fhansen

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In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God, so righteousness is not optional for a believer. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works that he did, in Galatians 3:26-29, it equates being children of Abraham with being children of God in Christ through faith, and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. A chip off of the old block is someone who has the same character or nature as their father, so that is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God insofar as the Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so that is also the sense that we are sons of God when we are partaking in his nature through following his example by walking in the same way he walked, which is why those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God. The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature, so that is also why in Romans 8:4-14 that those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law.
I agree with this but a believer can still turn away, leave the fold, shut the door, etc. If a believer still sins, than they're not totally sold out to God as it is, meaning they don't yet love Him with their whole, heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves. If they sin persistently in the grave manner that Scripture says will keep us from heaven, then they've already turned away from Him.
 
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fhansen

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One (how an unbeliever receives God's free gift of Eternal Life) is something that happens in a moment of time, by faith in the Messiah

Where the other (how a believer should live) the disciplined life and growth of a believer trying to walk in obedience to God. Not to receive Eternal Life but to be rewarded at the judgment seat of The Messiah for a well lived life of a believer.
And this is not the gospel as historically understood and taught by the church and the ECFs. How we live our lives, how we love to put it most accurately, is absolutely tied to whether or not we inherit eternal life. The new covenant is not a release from the obligation for man to be righteous but the means to that very righteousness. It begins as we accept God as revealed by His Son, as we come to know Him, IOW. This results in faith which now means direct fellowship with the Source of all righteousness: with He who is love. That faith-born union is the essence of man's justice or righteousness; it's what we were made for, and is meant to bring us into true righteousness, into loving as He does. Justice is not only restored to God's creation by this love, but it's brought into even greater justice or righteousness and glory yet as it's transformed into His own image. This begins at the point of justification.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."
Jer 31:33-34

And the more we know Him the more we love Him.
 
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servant7777

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The sheep hear His voice and heard no other, He knows them by name, they know Him and that is why they follow Him.

Just like sheep never leave their own keeper, till death, so the sheep of the great Shepherd remain that way so.

The Shepherd also cares for the sheep, and did not die for them against the wolves( everybody should know who that is) for nothing, He died to show His love for those sheep, so they love Him too.

Who, who understands what love is, ever leaves love.

The same way, as anyone who knows what love, is, ever can practice anything else.
 
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fhansen

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The sheep hear His voice and heard no other, He knows them by name, they know Him and that is why they follow Him.

Just like sheep never leave their own keeper, till death, so the sheep of the great Shepherd remain that way so.

The Shepherd also cares for the sheep, and did not die for them against the wolves( everybody should know who that is) for nothing, He died to show His love for those sheep, so they love Him too.

Who, who understands what love is, ever leaves love.

The same way, as anyone who knows what love, is, ever can practice anything else.
And yet in this life we will not be perfected in love. By the same token and for the same reason we will not be perfectly sinless in this life. And sheep stray all the time.
 
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servant7777

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Hansen: " And sheep stray all the time."


Gods word:

Psalm 119:67 BEFORE I WAS AFFLICTED I WENT ASTRAY: but NOW I HAVE KEPT THY WORD.

Proverbs 5:22 His own iniquities shall take THE WICKED himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
23 He shall die without instruction; and IN THE GREATNESS OF HIS FOLLY HE SHALL GO ASTRAY.

Ezekiel 14:11 THAT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL MAY GO NO MORE ASTRAY FROM ME neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but THAT THY MAY BE MY PEOPLE, and I MAY BE THEIR GOD, saith the Lord God.

1 Peter 2:25 For YE WERE AS SHEEP GOING ASTRAY; but are NOW RETURNED UNTO THE SHEPHERD AND BISHOP OF YOUR SOULS.

2 Peter 2:15 WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who LOVED THE WAGES OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS;
 
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servant7777

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And yet in this life we will not be perfected in love.


Verses:

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. IF WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER, GOD DWELLETH IN US, AND HIS LOVE IS PERFECTED IN US.
13 HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE DWELL IN HIM, AND HE IN US, because HE HATH GIVEN UNTO US OF HIS SPIRIT.

Romans 5:5 And HOPE MAKETH NOT ASHAMED, BECAUSE THE LOVE OF GOD IS SHED ABROAD IN OUR HEARTS BY THE HOLY GHOST WHICH IS GIVEN UNTO US.
 
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fhansen

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Verses:

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. IF WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER, GOD DWELLETH IN US, AND HIS LOVE IS PERFECTED IN US.
13 HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE DWELL IN HIM, AND HE IN US, because HE HATH GIVEN UNTO US OF HIS SPIRIT.

Romans 5:5 And HOPE MAKETH NOT ASHAMED, BECAUSE THE LOVE OF GOD IS SHED ABROAD IN OUR HEARTS BY THE HOLY GHOST WHICH IS GIVEN UNTO US.
Yes, that love is the primary definition of the righteousness God plants into a believer. But his will is not overridden. And until and unless that love is perfected, which would mean that a person loves God with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength, placing Him above all else, with no distraction, no sin in thought, word, or deed, then it isn't yet perfected. The church teaches that such love will not be fully accomplished in this life even though it must be the road we're well on. What we "ought" to do involves a process, a journey. Man is obligated to love, and that is a work of God's that we necessarily participate in as we accept and act upon His gift of love, daily...or not.
 
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servant7777

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Yes, that love is the primary definition of the righteousness God plants into a believer. But his will is not overridden. And until and unless that love is perfected, which would mean that a person loves God with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength, placing Him above all else, with no distraction, no sin in thought, word, or deed, then it isn't yet perfected. The church teaches that such love will not be fully accomplished in this life even though it must be the road we're well on. What we "ought" to do involves a process, a journey. Man is obligated to love, and that is a work of God's that we necessarily participate in as w act and act upon the gift of love, daily...or not.



If we love one another, it is a sign that Gods Holy Spirit is in us, and Gods love is perfected in us.

When we do not love one another, there is no Holy Spirit in us.

If we hate our brother we are a liar, and we also do not love God. ( even if we claim we do)




1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
 
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servant7777

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with no distraction, no sin in thought, word, or deed, then it isn't yet perfected. The church teaches that such love will not be fully accomplished in this life even though it must be the road we're well on.


Gods word teaching:



James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
 
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fhansen

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Gods word teaching:



James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Yes, those are ideals we should shoot for.
 
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servant7777

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No, it means that the Holy Spirit is in us, not that we're perfected in it.


1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. IF WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER, GOD DWELLETH IN US, AND HIS LOVE IS PERFECTED IN US.
13 HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE DWELL IN HIM, AND HE IN US, because HE HATH GIVEN UNTO US OF HIS SPIRIT.
 
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