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Featured Salvation for the Dead

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by notforgotten, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Scripture?
     
  2. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    No, they have not. The Old Testament points to Jesus, and they deny that he is Lord and God.

    There is no reason to believe this. These are the same people who rejected Jesus as Lord and God, when he performed miracles right in front of their very own eyes. There is no reason to think that they would accept all of God's word, because they rejected God himself. And as we agree that they rejected at least 27 writings that are the inspired word of God, there is no reason to think that they would not reject 7 more, especially ones that contain explicit prophecy about Jesus, such as found in Wisdom 2.

    Yes, at least at one point in time St. Jerome doubted the that the Deuterocanonical books belong in the canon. But he later changed his view and assented to the teaching of the Church, after he was corrected.

    http://taylormarshall.com/2011/09/did-st-jerome-reject-deuterocanoical.html
     
  3. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If God exists outside of time and space, as most seem to believe, then is it not possible that He could use our prayers for dead loved ones, in a sort of retroactive manner or looking ahead into the future manner, if you prefer, and offer our deceased loved ones a chance at repentance and salvation at the moment of their death, based upon our petitions that take place after they have died?
     
  4. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    We are not here interested in the beliefs of the Jews which are wrong, as they deny the Holy Trinity, Deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, etc. I am talking about preserving their Bible, and using the same Books of the Old Testament as they have always had. There is no evidence that they ever added to, or removed any of the Book in their Bible.

    With regards to Jerome's apparent reference to Sirach as "scripture", this can never be confirmed to be that of Jerome, as we know that his Latin Vulgate has been through many revisions, and I will not be surprised that this has been tampered with. In all of his volumes of writings, how comes there is just the ONE reference to a book of the Apocrypha as "scripture"? If you read the Epistle of Peter, he warns that Paul's writings were being tampered with! We do know that Jerome rejected the additional books, and only said the 22 were Inspired and Canonical, but did translate the Apocrypha, for the purpose of reading but not of equal value to the 22 Books.

    One interesting point. Much has been made of the Greek Septuagint as containing the books that the Roman Catholic bible has. However, the Septuagint was completed about 150 B.C at the earliest, and many of the OT Apocrypha books were written after this date. How can they have been included in a work completed years earlier? Further evidence of tampering!
     
  5. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I guess, if God lives outside of time, He could use our prayers now toward the lives of our "now dead" loved ones while they were still alive. However, as it has been stated here many times. Once you have died, you are judged.

    There is no "when you die God waits to see if anyone wants to pray for your soul before He judges you".

    There is no scripture that says God will wait a generation or so and give anyone who cared a chance to redeem your soul for you.

    There is no clock ticking while you stand in front of your creator, both whistling nervously to see what prayers come up the pipe.

    No, there is death... then judgement.

    Ezekiel 18:20

    20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
     
  6. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    You can not sin.. repent after dead. Its in THIS LIFE. He said.. For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. And it is also written....And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment,

    Forgive me..but this is written even in the OT.. leviticus, Deuteronomy, 1st Chronicles.. on and on.

    yet.. if we can not know the heart.. just what is it your trying do? The BOOKS have not been open. Whos in (Forgive me Father) hell? Yean.. we don't know. And PRAISE GOD for that. EVERYONE gets a chance to say YES to Christ or no. No one but no one is lost by mistake.. God is not a man nor thinks like one. So SO MANY are blind.. Jesus said..if you were blind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains. SO have faith and FORGIVE ME ok? But follow the WORD not me not any man.. Jesus is the way.. Jesus is the truth JESUS IS LIFE!
     
  7. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even if the general thesis of most of you is correct, that one cannot repent after death, there is still a chance that God could come to someone right before they die and offer them a last chance at repentance and salvation. It is possible that He could do this based upon the prayers of loved ones, even if said prayers occur after death, as God exists outside of time and space as we know it.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are you fluent in Hebrew and Greek? I think not therefore you must read the scriptures in an English translation. Ooops, can't do that because a scholar or a group of scholars made that translation. What I see a lot of here are the universalists cherry picking versions which support their views, two favorites are Young's and Rotherham's. Ooops can't use them either, they are scholars.
    .....There is a big disconnect here. When I go to a Dr. I check out their diplomas. I'm not going to get medical advice or treatment from someone who does not have the proper qualifications. Same with Lawyers, Accountants etc. They are all scholars they spent several years studying being tested.
    .....Only in the area of Theology does everyone with a Strong's concordance think they are a Bible expert. There is another scholar. Strong's concordance has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. But many people rely on the scholar Strong's as if his concordance was carried down from Mt Sinai by Moses.

    Jesus was interested in what the Jews believed. He corrected them on some of their beliefs but He also said this.
    Matthew 23:2-3
    (2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
    (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
    No evidence and what you may or may not be surprised about is not evidence.
    Peter did not say Paul's writings had been tampered with.
    No, zero, none evidence.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    "Even if,""still a chance,""God could,""it is possible,""even if," nothing here but speculation. I would not want to be trying to convince someone that what I believe is correct based on "what if,""maybe" etc.
     
  10. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Before you reply, please think of what you write! I said in very plain English, that we are not interested "HERE", about what the Jews views were, or are, as we are dealing with their fidelity of the Old Testament Books that they have used over the centuries. Can you or anyone else give any evidence showing that they have added or removed ONE Book from their Bible, even from Christ' time?

    You say that, "Peter did not say Paul's writings had been tampered with". Really? Do you read your Bible? Here is what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:16, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.", The word "wrest" is from the Greek, "στρεβλόω", which Liddell and Scott in their lexicon define as "pervert or distort words". the Oxford English dictionary says this on "tamper", "make unauthorized alterations". Is this clear enough?
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Let me preface my remarks with some background. I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany. I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades later. While the Liddel Scott lexicon is an excellent resource it is for classical Greek not the koine Greek of the NT. Here is the definition of στρεβλόω/strebloo from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon of the NT.
    στρεβλόω imper. 2 sing. strevblou ( Hdt. , Aristoph. +; pap. , LXX ) twist, wrench — 1. torture, torment (so very oft. , incl. BGU 195, 13 [II AD ]; 4 Macc; Jos. , Bell. 7, 373) fig. ( Diod. S. 16, 61, 3 tortured by anxiety) mh; strevblou seautovn do not trouble yourself (with the solving of a riddle, as Vi. Aesopi W
    c. 78) Hs 9, 2, 7.
    2. twist, distort (2 Km 22:27 ) ti; someth. , so that a false mng. results (Numenius of Apamea, peri; th`" tw`n jAkadhmai>kw`n pro;" Plavtwna diastavsew" 1, 1 ed. KSGuthrie [1917] p. 63) 2 Pt 3:16 . M-M. *
    A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
    Your post implied that the written scriptures had been tampered with. What Peter wrote refers to people wresting the words that Paul wrote not substituting other words. I see a lot of that here e.g. "This word does not mean "X," it really means "Y."
     
  12. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    This is what is known as an "own goal"!!! you proved yourself WRONG! Can you just read the SECOND defination, "TWIST, DISTORT"= "tamper", tamper - definition of tamper in English | Oxford Dictionaries
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    None of your 9 lexicons give you info on the meaning of kolasis in the writings of Plato, Aristotle & Clement of Alexandria? Do they at least give references to such? If not, then why are they so lacking, poor, lousy & incomplete? Is it because they are willfully deceitful?

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."



    The topic was Origen & Early Church Universalists re the use of aionios. Please try to pay attention next time. Why do these lexicons that you tout and venerate ignore such? Are they biased, ignorant, stupid, or willfully deceitful (for position & filthy lucre's sake)?



    Re omissions see above. How many errors & omissions are in the lexicons you highly tout & venerate? Should we treat them like a substitute infallible pontiff?

    Do they catalogue every ocurrence of each word in ancient usage? Or just select those that agree with their biases?

    Do they always explain why they've chosen a particular meaning for a word in certain contexts, but a different meaning for the same word in other contexts? No. They just expect you to blindly believe them, they who don't even agree with one another.

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  14. JacquelineDeane55

    JacquelineDeane55 Newbie

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    I'm sorry but, I am a Protestant and my church does not believe that the Book of Maccabees is actually part of the Word of God. I can't find it in my own Bible.

    I am not a Catholic; I am more of a Lollard, like my little sister called me. People like me do not believe in purgatory or praying to the saints. We think that only GOD can hear prayer, as the saints were just ordinary people like you and me, and that we should only pray to GOD alone.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's pointless. To prove the accusation of alleged misrepresentation you have to point out how the comment given was a misrepresentation. Otherwise the accusation just looks fishy, wrong & false. Try again:

    According to you Gehenna = Hades to these Pharisees you quoted. Now apply the quote above to the story of the rich man in Hades in Lk.16:19-31. Then your quote reads:

    "All that descend into Gehenna/HADES shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"

    Still think Jesus "did not correct these specific beliefs"?

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

     
  16. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Augustine did it. Sheeesh, read some Christian history, will ya!
     
  17. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    It's not a question of a "second chance." It's about theosis (you Latins call it "divinization.") Life does not stop when you die. You and I both believe in further change after we pass on, which is known as "purgation." (You call it Purgatory). That is change. It shows that change is possible.

    Now prove to me that the possibility of change is not at least open to the sinner as well. You can't, and I have a better proof that it is - Romans 2: 13-16, which states clearly that those who never heard the Gospel or of Christ, still have opportunity to be saved if they follow the law of God which the Holy Spirit places in all men's hearts.

    But being pagans, they will no doubt enter with a LOT of spiritual baggage and bad habits (sins) that will have to be dealt with. They will have to undergo change, won't they? So we see that non-Christians can get into heaven. We see it from the Scriptures. Why then say that the mercy of God is so truncated that there isn't further opportunity for divinization when there clearly is?
     
  18. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    This is called "theosis" (divinization in the Latin Church). And yes, it does take time, yet it never is finished because we shall never be exactly like God. Despite what Evangelicals teach (which comes from Luther's legal heresy of forensic justification) none of us are perfect in our theosis when we die. And some of us are very, VERY far away, having never started.

    Choice: a person can start now by repenting and seeking the Lord, by practice of ascesis including fasting and prayer, or you can be dragged to it in the next life to start it after the fires of hell have cleansed all that rebellion out of you. The result will be the same, but it is going to be a LOT less painful if you do it the first way.
     
  19. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Which is the thing that keeps me from being anymore than a "hopeful" Universalist. It seems that a person can so harden their heart (and soul?) that even in the presence of God Himself, feeling His love for them, they would turn away and prefer death over life.

    I hope that perhaps such hardness of heart is the greater minority of people rather than the majority, but I cannot be sure nor do I have a way of finding out. It is, ultimately, in God's hands.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I do not have the time or inclination to go look up every writing everyone refers or alludes to. The person that refers, alludes to, mentions etc. some writing in support of their argument has the burden of proof to provide evidence for their arguments. I can just see someone going into a court room and telling the judge "Here is a list of evidence which exonerates me, just go look it up."
     
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