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Featured Salvation for the Dead

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by notforgotten, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Uhhhhhh.............yeah, but you seem to be very well-read in other areas. Could it be that like most of us, you tend to not read things that would destroy your presuppositions? I know I'm guilty of such.
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You evidently did not even read the definition I posted. If you think the accredited language sources I quoted are in error then you need to thoroughly research the subject, gather your evidence and contact the publishers with your superior knowledge of Greek.
    What exactly do you think this proves in this discussion? As with all of your proof texts you have ignored the context. Read vss. 10 and 13. From ca. 700 BC do you think God would allow errors to remain in His word?
    One who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. This is exactly what you do. Why do the books and links that you tout and venerate ignore everything which proves them wrong? Are they biased, ignorant, stupid, or willfully deceitful (for position & filthy lucre's sake)?
    Re: the quotes and links you tout. How many errors & omissions are in the books and websites you highly tout & venerate? Should we treat them like a substitute infallible pontiff? Do they catalogue every occurrence of each word in ancient usage? Or just select those that agree with their biases? We both know the answer to this question.
    Do your books and websites always explain why they've chosen a particular meaning for a word in certain contexts, but a different meaning for the same word in other contexts? No. They just expect you to blindly believe them, they who don't even agree with one another.
    .....Had you bothered to actually read the sources I quoted you would have known the answer to your questions. I even highlighted the references in blue to help you. Legitimate scholars do not eenie, meenie, mine moe pick a definition that suits them, they study how the original speakers used the words. That is why references are included in the definitions. They do that so they cannot be accused of the dishonesty you are throwing at them.
    .....Since the legitimate sources have been around for many years I am sure that universalist "
    scholars"and other heterodox group "scholars" have gone over the sources with a fine tooth comb desperately looking for errors and if there were any we would find books documenting them. Search the bookstores. But alas there is not a single scholarly work which critiques any of the lexicons or other sources I have quoted. All we see are amateurs, who don't know a aorist from and aardvark on forums like this incessantly railing against the sources and their authors.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I tend to read credible sources which have been published by credible publishers. I don't generally seek out things that don't meet those criteria. But I do read such material when it is posted in a thread and gladly point out errors.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If they gave the info on Plato, Aristotle & Clement, then why are you asking me for it? Why haven't you posted it yet & admitted what i posted was correct? As i said:

    None of your 9 lexicons give you info on the meaning of kolasis in the writings of Plato, Aristotle & Clement of Alexandria? Do they at least give references to such? If not, then why are they so lacking, poor, lousy & incomplete? Is it because they are willfully deceitful?
     
  5. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    As it is not in scripture it is mere speculation.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There was no definition given.

    Why don't you read one of your own sources, Thayer, re kolasis:

    Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)
    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/2851.html

    It supports what i posted earlier re Plato & Aristotle & gives references.

    Though it seems to lack any reference to Clement of Alexandria. Why? Bias?

    Another of your touted sources, Vine's, has a pathetically small entry at the following, which is all but useless:

    Punishment - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

    See also Liddell-Scott-Jones Definitions, yet another of your sources:

    Strong's #2851 - κόλασις - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where is "His word" today IYO? The KJV?

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    "The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

    1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your comment is vague. It doesn't point out any specific alleged flaws that can be answered. My comment was re a specific point which you danced around yet again:

    The topic was Origen & Early Church Universalists re the use of aionios. Please try to pay attention next time. Why do these lexicons that you tout and venerate ignore such? Are they biased, ignorant, stupid, or willfully deceitful (for position & filthy lucre's sake)?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Attacking other sources does not provide reasons for support of your own. That you don't provide any may be explained by blind trust in them or that you've never researched the matter yourself. As i said:

    Re omissions see above. How many errors & omissions are in the lexicons you highly tout & venerate? Should we treat them like a substitute infallible pontiff?
    Do they catalogue every ocurrence of each word in ancient usage? Or just select those that agree with their biases?

    Do they always explain why they've chosen a particular meaning for a word in certain contexts, but a different meaning for the same word in other contexts? No. They just expect you to blindly believe them, they who don't even agree with one another.

     
  10. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    @Light of the East

    I had thought that the eternity of hell was dogma, but the only hard statement that I could find to that effect was paragraph 43 of the Athanasian Creed:

    Athanasian Creed

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.​

    The creed seems clear enough. Do you interpret it differently, or do you not hold to the creed?
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nothing further to say. If you cannot formulate a cogent argument with your own words we have nothing to discuss.
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Then why is all you do is attack all the credible sources I quote? As you said it does not provide reasons for support of your own.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Everything you say is even more so applicable to the stuff you quote and link to. Nothing but biased universalist scribblings by mostly unqualified people. Don't demand of me what you are unwilling or unable to provide yourself. This tactic belongs in a kindergarten.
    What does aionios mean according the ECF universalist poster boy "Origen?"

    Origen De Principiis. Book I. Chap. VI
    3.But whether any of these orders who act under the government of the devil, and obey his wicked commands, will in a future world be converted to righteousness because of their possessing the faculty of freedom of will, or whether persistent and inveterate wickedness may be changed by the power of habit into nature, is a result which you yourself, reader, may approve of, if neither in these present worlds which are seen and temporal, nor in those which are unseen and are eternal, that portion is to differ wholly from the final unity and fitness of things. But in the meantime, both in those temporal worlds which are seen,
    De Principiis. Book II. Chap. III
    6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands, pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
    De Principiis. Book III chap. VI
    4.Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal, ” all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.
    De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
    25. Thy shadow we shall live among the nations;” (Lam_4:20) at the time, viz., when He will more worthily transfer all the saints from a temporal to an everlasting Gospel, according to the designation, employed by John in the Apocalypse, of “an everlasting Gospel.” (Cf. Rev_14:6)
    Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. XIX
    Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.
    De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
    8.From which it appears to me, that as on this earth the law was a sort of schoolmaster to those who by it were to he conducted to Christ, in order that, being instructed and trained by it, they might more easily, after the training of the law, receive the more perfect principles of Christ; so also another earth, which receives into it all the saints, may first imbue and mould them by the institutions of the true and everlasting law, that they may more easily gain possession of those perfect institutions of heaven, to which nothing can be added; in which there will be, of a truth, that Gospel which is called everlasting, and that Testament, ever new, which shall never grow old.
    De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
    13.For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal.
    In 2 Cor 4:7-8 Paul tells us the meaning of aionios as does Origen in De Principiis
    Matthew 25:46
    (46) And these shall go away into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionos] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, [παραυτίκα] worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;

    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal[πρόσκαιρος]; but the things which are not seen are eternal.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    παραυτίκα parautika
    From G3844 and a derivative of G846; at the very instant, that is, momentary: - but for a moment.
    πρόσκαιρος proskairos

    From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only, that is, temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile, endure for a time, for a season, temporal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Credible? See posts 306, 307, 308, 309 above.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What makes them "unqualified"? They are not like the qualified Pharisees that Jesus' disciples did not follow?

    Who did the 12 follow, Jesus or those (Pharisees, Sadducees & scribes) with "qualifications"?

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    The Pharisees taught everlasting torments.

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13)

    "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'" (Matthew 23:16)

    "Woe to you experts in the law! For you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." (Luke 11:52)

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. 9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

    Student: What is a theological cemetery?
    MASTER: An institution of higher learning, approved of men.
    Student: What's buried there?
    Master: The truth of God.

    1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized;"
    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

    1 Corinthians 1:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
    19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Jn.14:6)

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth (Jn.16:13a)

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    "The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How would we know from your highly touted 9 (un-credible) sources that never mention his use of the word! Talk about bias & wanting to sell books, LOL.

    Considering Origen was a universalist, as were many others in the early church, clearly they did not view aionios as meaning endless in relation to punishments.

    Since your 9 sources ignore universalists such as Origen re aion and aionios, you might try looking at what some scholars say on the topic, such as:

    "Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

    "Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

    I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

    It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

    Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

    The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
    SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory


     
  17. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    RESPONSE TO POST #23: Q1: ..."People are in hell because they did (NOT?) know any better....

    A1: wrong.
    UN-BELIEVERS are sentenced to eternity in the spiritual realm of the "lake of fire" because their IMMORTAL SPIRITS REJECTED GOD when called/drawn by God.

    Revelation 21:27
    and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (UN-BELIEVERS!)

    Revelation 20:15
    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (Lamb's) book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (fate of
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  18. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    OP: Q1: " Salvation for the Dead? "

    A1: This false doctrine is NOT supported by "Scripture" (less the un-canonized Apocrypha)
    My guess is that it arose from the "Tradition" and/or "Magisterium" of the RCC.

    This thread has become a "chat room" of irrelevant horse feathers.

    1 Timothy 6:20
    O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—

    2 Timothy 2:16
    But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
     
  19. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    True, there is a chance. I pray that all those I love come to know Christ before they pass.

    It's always hard for me to fathom the thought of having no tears for close loved ones that I do not meet again when I get to paradise. I cannot see how I will have no sorrow for people I love who are not with me there.
     
  20. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

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    So roughly 80 years (if you're lucky) determine eternity?
     
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