Salvation for the Dead

[chevyontheriver]

True.

But can you prove that there is no opportunity for repentance after death? You can't.

Look to the words of Jesus. Works for me. Can you prove that at or after judgment day you will be given a second chance? Are you willing to stake your salvation on it, and stake the salvation of those you might convince?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Nope.

Let's understand something here - I am ORTHODOX. I choose to be in communion with the Holy Father in Rome as it was in the first 10 centuries of the Church. But I do not accept, nor do I believe in the Immaculate Conception, Indulgences, Purgatory as a place (even Pope JP II said as much, saying that it was a state of being), the whole legal approach to salvation as law keeping rather than curing the soul of sickness, the filioque clause, or Augustine's erroneous teaching on "Original Sin."

I don't pretend to comprehend the Orthodox. Every time I think I am on the same page with them they tell me I'm wrong. If you don't believe Catholic doctrine, not Latin Rite Catholic doctrine but universal Catholic doctrine then you probably have departed from the Catholic faith. But then you didn't say 'I am CATHOLIC" but "I am ORTHODOX. So saying what you are saying about everyone having opportunities after death to escape hell, while it sure isn't Catholic teaching, maybe, who knows, maybe it's your brand of Orthodoxy. I give up.

 

[ClementofA]

I have also just consulted the classical Greek lexicon by Dr Sophocles, where he defines, "αἰώνιος", "eternal, everlasting" (page 98). is he also wrong?

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

"no such thing"??? So the Greek AUTHORITIES in lexicons are wrong??? This shows beyond any doubt that you guys are NOT interested in the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible, but only want to promote your bias!

""describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tts 1:2; or undefined because endless..."

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Eternal - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

 

[Christodoulos]

This thread was initially an issue about universalism. That seems lost now in all of the silliness about claims that the Bible is only supposed to have 66 books. Too much thread drift for me. Too many people sniping from too many angles. I'm done, with the usual note to self that anything in CCT is worse than a waste of time. But will I remember that note in a month? Sadly not likely. But I'm going to try.

Whether the thread is about universalism, makes no difference. the facts remain that this "doctrine" is being pushed by those who are more interested in getting their "theology" from books that are not even the Word of God, and therefore count for nothing. There is nothing "silly" about the fact that the Holy Bible consists of 66 Books. Just because you and the other Roman Catholics are guilty of basing beliefs on non-biblical authorities, and when shown to be wrong, simply dismiss what people say, because the Truth might shake your "foundations".

I still challenge ANY person on here to prove from EVIDENCE, that the Old Testament as received and use by the Jews in Jesus' time, consisted of any more than the 39 Books in Bible versions like the King James. I note all those who shouted the most about their so-called "evidence" have run off because they cannot contradict the FACTS!

 

[Christodoulos]

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

James Strong's Greek and Hebrew dictionaries are NOT language authorities for word meanings. Post some lexical evidence here as I have done from foremost authorities, and they we can discuss further.

 

[ClementofA]

Much learning is making you mad! I don't know what you are on about here, and what birds have to do with "eternal"???

For your information, the Greek word translated "eternal" in Mathew 25:46 (twice), is "αἰώνιος" (aionios). It is interesting to note Dr Joseph Thayer's defination in his Greek-English lexicon, for this text in matthew, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". Dr Thayer was a Unitarian, and as such did not himself believe in "eternal punishment". However, he is here dealing with the meaning of words, and giving them as they are in the Greek and English languages, and not giving his personal views on how the word should be defined, though he does make his comments elsewhere on other important words. It is very clear that "αἰώνιος" here for both uses, mean "without end". In the Greek-English lexicon for classical Greek, Liddell and Scott for this Bible verse has it, "perpetual, eternal". This is solid, irrefutable evidence!

Some alternate translations have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

From Here to Eternity: How Long is Forever?

Earlier in the book of Matthew the same author wrote:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

From page 26 the passage in Matthew 25 is considered at:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


Following are various translations of Matthew 25:46:

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous ?into onian life."

The People's New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

 

[ClementofA]

James Strong's Greek and Hebrew dictionaries are NOT language authorities for word meanings. Post some lexical evidence here as I have done from foremost authorities, and they we can discuss further.

I can post many authorities:

""describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tts 1:2; or undefined because endless..."

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

 

[Christodoulos]

""describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tts 1:2; or undefined because endless..."

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Eternal - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Do you know and understand the Greek language? Have you heard of contextual meanings? Like, for example, the Greek word "κόσμος", in John 3:16, means "every single human being from creation till the end, the entire human race"; where as in John 12:19, the meaning is not the same as here, but means simply a "large number". This is the same with other words as well. One cannot suppose that the one word has the same meaning in each occurrence. Like "θεός" is used for "the One True God", and for "human judges" as well as for "the devil". Context and usage are very important.

 

[Christodoulos]

Some alternate translations have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

From Here to Eternity: How Long is Forever?

Earlier in the book of Matthew the same author wrote:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

From page 26 the passage in Matthew 25 is considered at:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


Following are various translations of Matthew 25:46:

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous ?into onian life."

The People's New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Do you think that the righteous, who have been saved by the death of Jesus Christ, will spend "eternity" (time without end) in heaven, or just "a limited time"?

 

[Der Alte]

I did read your post and fully understand it, and disagreed then, as I do now. makes no difference whether Polycarp or Ignatius knew the Apostle John, as their writings are NOT inspired other than the Holy Spirit may have given them insight as He does to any believer. I know Biblical and some Classical Greek, and some Latin, but without the Holy Spirit guiding it means nothing as only He can lead us into His Truth! Why should a native Greek speaking Christian 1000 years ago be any more correct than a person today with Greek knowledge? Your reasoning is faulty!

Because the early church fathers knew all the nuances of Greek, had not been indoctrinated for years in any number of heterodox religious groups, e.g. present company, and had no alternate definition axe to grind.. So when e.g. Origen the universalist ECF poster boy said "That which is temporary is seen that which aionios is not seen." (De Principiis Book I, chap. V.) I believe he is correct.

 

[ClementofA]

Do you know and understand the Greek language? Have you heard of contextual meanings? Like, for example, the Greek word "κόσμος", in John 3:16, means "every single human being from creation till the end, the entire human race"; where as in John 12:19, the meaning is not the same as here, but means simply a "large number". This is the same with other words as well. One cannot suppose that the one word has the same meaning in each occurrence. Like "θεός" is used for "the One True God", and for "human judges" as well as for "the devil". Context and usage are very important.

I agree.

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[chevyontheriver]

We should not let our emotions and beliefs take over and dull our understanding to truth and facts!

Oh, that would be wonderful.

We see from the New Testament, that Jesus Christ, as God Incarnate, and therefore the Highest Authority (yes, even more so that the pope!), in two places confirms that the Books (Canon) of the accepted Old Testament at His time, are exactly as we have them in the King James Version, which has 39 Books as Canonical. The Jew have a different order for the Books and grouping, in 22 Books, but these are exactly the same as in our Protestant Canon.

Balderdash.

In Matthew 23:35, Jesus says, "so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.". The two names mentioned here, are from the Books of Genesis (4:10), and 2 Chronicles (24:20-22), which according to the Jewish Bible, is the first and last Books in their order. Thus confirming only the 22 Books.

It confirms nothing. It is two names. Saying those names bookend the whole of the books of the Bible is inventive at best.

In Luke 24:44, Jesus says, "“These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Note the three divisions of the complete Old Testament Books, "the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms". This referred to the 22 Books that the Jewish Bible has till this day, and was the same in Jesus' time. Check online and see that the Jews so divided the Old Testament Books, and that NO Apocrypha books are among them!

Again, inventive.

We add to this the historical FACT, that in the first century the Jewish historian, Josephus, lists ONLY the 22 Books (corresponding to the 39 in the KJV) as being the Inspired, Infallible Word of God forming the entire Old Testament. This can be seen in his, Contra Apion 1:7-8, Josephus: Against Apion I

The absence of evidence, which is the case with Josephus, is not the evidence of absence.

We also have the Council of Jamnia, (which some deny), which again establishes that there are ONLY 22 (39) Books in the Old Testament that are God-Inspired!, http://jewishstudies.eteacherbiblical.com/jamnia/

I grew up on the idea that there was a council or Synod of Jamnia. But the evidence never was very good for it. It was more a convenient theory. At best you might claim a 'school' of Jamnia, where the rabbis of the place held to some particular conclusions. But just for the sake of argument, since it doesn't matter that much, lets presume that some Jewish authorities determined that some books were in their canon and some were out of their canon. Note that zero of the New Testament books made it into their canon. So much for the authority of the 'council' of Jamnia.

These are the FACTS that the Roman Catholics cannot accept because it challenges their "bible" and the authority of their "church", which has not much to do with what the Holy Bible actually Teaches, as they are content is twisting the Truth to their own ruin!

The Orthodox and the Catholics still keep the original canon. You said yourself that books were removed because they didn't comport with Protestant beliefs. Not a big surprise. But what is rich is saying that these books ripped out of Protestant Bibles were ADDED at the council of Trent. Never mind the council of Florence had the same canon in 1442, and the councils of Carthage had the same canon in 397-413, and that pope Damasus had the same canon in 382. Somehow Protestants can claim with semi-straight faces that those books were added at the council of Trent. Talk to me about facts. No. Skip it. Keep the revisionism to yourselves. I'm gone. I'm not gonna change one person's view here anyway.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I still challenge ANY person on here to prove from EVIDENCE, that the Old Testament as received and use by the Jews in Jesus' time, consisted of any more than the 39 Books in Bible versions like the King James. I note all those who shouted the most about their so-called "evidence" have run off because they cannot contradict the FACTS!

I am not 'running off' but done with this strained conversation. The proof you seek is there but you will need a Septuagent, a copy of the Jewish OT in Hebrew (or maybe English will do), a Greek new Testament, and time to look up all the OT citations of the NT. Go for it. Figure it out for yourself.

 

[ClementofA]

Do you think that the righteous, who have been saved by the death of Jesus Christ, will spend "eternity" (time without end) in heaven, or just "a limited time"?

Consider how Daniel 12:2-3 answers that:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Beaker]

That is a link to Wiki. Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. There are multiple [edit] links in every article, anybody can post, change, delete anything without review. Every early church father who quotes or refers to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual. Now let the specious objections begin, "The ECF are not scripture" etc.
.....Seems like we can believe anything posted at Wiki by an anonymous person but Christian writers in the early church can not be believed.

•– Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II [pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the apostle]
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
•– Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•– Tertullian On Idolatry
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.
•– Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor “
There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•– Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.​

Then look THIS up Bible Gateway passage: Luke 16:19-31 - New International Version

 

[Der Alte]

Then look THIS up Bible Gateway passage: Luke 16:19-31 - New International Version

To what end? You didn't like my several quotes from the ECF?

 

[Christodoulos]

Consider how Daniel 12:2-3 answers that:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

I repeat my question is plain English. Do you believe there will be anyone in heaven "for all eternity (without end)" with the Lord? Will those who are "born-again" spend "forever more" with the Lord in heaven? Yes or no?

 

[Christodoulos]

To what end? You didn't like my several quotes from the ECF?

How about some quotes from the Holy Bible instead?

 

[Christodoulos]

I am not 'running off' but done with this strained conversation. The proof you seek is there but you will need a Septuagent, a copy of the Jewish OT in Hebrew (or maybe English will do), a Greek new Testament, and time to look up all the OT citations of the NT. Go for it. Figure it out for yourself.

Why the LXX? Why the Greek New Testament? It is supposed by some that there are quotations in the New Testament that do not come from the Hebrew OT, but the Greek LXX. The fact of the matter is, that the LXX itself was made from Hebrew manuscripts of the time (around 150 B.C.). It is not inconceivable that these quotations in the NT that agree more with the LXX, are not actually from there, but the parent Hebrew text. The Hebrew Old Testament at the time of Christ, as confirmed by Josephus, has 22 (39) Books ONLY, which excludes ALL the extra books and portions in the Roman Catholic OT. No one can honestly disprove what Josephus has said!