Salvation for the Dead

[Der Alte]

I see.
So St. Isaac the Syrian was blind? Clement of Rome was blind? St. Gregory of Nyssa was blind? All the Christians who lived in the first three centuries and believed in a hope after death were blind?
No truth until you and your Protestantism came along, eh?

Clement [A.D. 30-100] Clement was probably a Gentile and a Roman.
The First Epistle to the Corinthians. Chap XI
He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punished and torture. (Gen_19:1-38; comp. 2Pe_2:6-9) For Lot’s wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations.
Chap XIV
Let us be kind one to another after the pattern of the tender mercy and benignity of our Creator. For it is written, “The kind-hearted shall inhabit the land, and the guiltless shall be left upon it, but transgressors shall be destroyed from off the face of it.” (Pro_2:21-22) And again [the Scripture] saith, “I saw the ungodly highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon: I passed by, and, behold, he was not; and I diligently sought his place, and could not find it.
Clement Chap XXI
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Clement Chap XXII
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Chap LI
For it is better that a man should acknowledge his transgressions than that he should harden his heart, as the hearts of those were hardened who stirred up sedition against Moses the servant of God, and whose condemnation was made manifest [unto all]. For they went down alive into Hades, and death swallowed them up. (Num_16:1-50) Pharaoh with his army and all the princes of Egypt, and the chariots with their riders, were sunk in the depths of the Red Sea, and perished, (Exo_14:1-31) for no other reason than that their foolish hearts were hardened, after so many signs and wonders had been wrought in the land of Egypt by Moses the servant of God.​

 

[Christodoulos]

Clement [A.D. 30-100] Clement was probably a Gentile and a Roman.
The First Epistle to the Corinthians. Chap XI
He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punished and torture. (Gen_19:1-38; comp. 2Pe_2:6-9) For Lot’s wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations.
Chap XIV
Let us be kind one to another after the pattern of the tender mercy and benignity of our Creator. For it is written, “The kind-hearted shall inhabit the land, and the guiltless shall be left upon it, but transgressors shall be destroyed from off the face of it.” (Pro_2:21-22) And again [the Scripture] saith, “I saw the ungodly highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon: I passed by, and, behold, he was not; and I diligently sought his place, and could not find it.
Clement Chap XXI
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Clement Chap XXII
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Chap LI
For it is better that a man should acknowledge his transgressions than that he should harden his heart, as the hearts of those were hardened who stirred up sedition against Moses the servant of God, and whose condemnation was made manifest [unto all]. For they went down alive into Hades, and death swallowed them up. (Num_16:1-50) Pharaoh with his army and all the princes of Egypt, and the chariots with their riders, were sunk in the depths of the Red Sea, and perished, (Exo_14:1-31) for no other reason than that their foolish hearts were hardened, after so many signs and wonders had been wrought in the land of Egypt by Moses the servant of God.​

what is the point of quoting from non-Biblical books?

 

[Light of the East]

I know what you have said. there is nothing that proves that "eternal" means anything less in both uses in this verse. It means ETERNAL, and not AGE LONG as you theology says. Can you cite any English Bible version that has "age long"?

The English translations come from the Latin. The Latin was translated wrongly. The Latins did not understand Greek and instead of translating it "age-long" or "age-during," they translated it eternal.

That is like taking the original Greek word

πράσινος
prásinos

which means "green" as in the color, and saying that it means "bird." It means no such thing.
The Latins got it wrong, the translated it "aeternus" which means eternal, and which is like
translating prasinos as "bird." Now I'm telling you that it means "green" and you don't care.
Don't try to impress me with your THE BIBLE ONLY!!!! position when you are not willing to actually
care one bit about what the Bible really says in the original Greek. That is dishonest and
agenda-serving!~!!

 

[Light of the East]

Clement [A.D. 30-100] Clement was probably a Gentile and a Roman.
The First Epistle to the Corinthians. Chap XI
He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punished and torture. (Gen_19:1-38; comp. 2Pe_2:6-9)

Yes, but for how long. Nothing is said about the duration of the punishment, is there?

For Lot’s wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations.

Yes, but for how long?


Chap XIV
Let us be kind one to another after the pattern of the tender mercy and benignity of our Creator. For it is written, “The kind-hearted shall inhabit the land, and the guiltless shall be left upon it, but transgressors shall be destroyed from off the face of it.” (Pro_2:21-22)

Says nothing in that verse about "eternal torment." The land promise was part of the blessing of the Old Covenant, so it is questionable that you can even use this for your defense. It is like apples and oranges.

And again [the Scripture] saith, “I saw the ungodly highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon: I passed by, and, behold, he was not; and I diligently sought his place, and could not find it.

Again, this is the Old Covenant. It is promising the destruction of the wicked from the face of the earth, which says nothing about their eternal welfare. Remember, Old Covenant blessings and curses had to do with this realm on earth. Do you not find it strange that there is not one single verse which mentions "hell" or eternal torment in hell in all of Judaism and its verses???

Clement Chap XXI
The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

See? FROM THE EARTH. Jewish land blessing. Not at all about eternal welfare of the soul.

For it is better that a man should acknowledge his transgressions than that he should harden his heart, as the hearts of those were hardened who stirred up sedition against Moses the servant of God, and whose condemnation was made manifest [unto all]. For they went down alive into Hades, and death swallowed them up. (Num_16:1-50)

Hades or Sheol. The grave. Has nothing to do with the Medieval Roman Catholic concept of an eternal hell where God tortures the wicked forever and St. Thomas Aquinas and the saints look on with unrestrained glee.


​

 

[Light of the East]

Appeal is made by some Roman Catholics to the early Christian writings, as though they are equal to Scripture, and then attack you when you say that this evidence is not acceptable as it is not from the Holy Bible.

The very sad think is, that people on here, and in the world are more interested in what "books" say on "not so eternal punishment", "post-death salvation", rather than what the actual Bible has to say. How comes these "doctrines", as important as they are, are NOT in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, but only in Maccabees? Neither, Jesus, nor Paul, who wrote about half of the New Testament Books, or any other author, says anything to support these views? Yet the Roman Catholics cling on to them for dear life, and use every means to try to show they have equal authority as the Books in the Holy Bible do. Should they also reject these books as spurious, then they will be forced to believe the Truth of the Holy Bible!!!

First of all, I'm not Roman Catholic.

You yak on about us non-Protestants not believing the Bible, but when someone comes to you and shows you the Greek and tells you that the modern Latin translation is wrong, you do theological gymnastics to keep your theology alive.

Why?

Why is it of such importance to you to burn sinners forever? Could you explain that to me? Yes, I am angry at abortionists, homosexual degenerates, and a host of other wicked people who hate the truth, and yes, I want the punished and punished severely. But there must come a time when a person would say "For the love of God - that's enough!"

And what if the souls of the wicked, being punished, begin to admit their wrong-doing with cries of repentance, tears, and cries for mercy. Would you withhold mercy from them even after they have "paid" for their crimes? You are a harsh taskmaster, which makes me glad that God is God and not you.

 

[Der Alte]

what is the point of quoting from non-Biblical books?

Had you extended me the common courtesy of reading my post and the post I was responding to you would have known what my purpose was. Also when folks start arguing about "I have the correct interpretation." "Nuh uh, I've got the correct interpretation." I look at the writings of the native Greek speaking early church to see how they interpreted those disputed verses. They were 1400-1700 years closer to the time of the writing of the NT it is more likely they are correct than anonymous people on the internet who probably don't know the difference between an aorist and an apple or a hithpael and a hatpin.

 

[Light of the East]

what is the point of quoting from non-Biblical books?

It shows what was believed in the first centuries of the Church (which also shows that whatever flavor of Protestantism you follow, it didn't exist back then, which should worry you).

 

[Christodoulos]

The English translations come from the Latin. The Latin was translated wrongly. The Latins did not understand Greek and instead of translating it "age-long" or "age-during," they translated it eternal.

That is like taking the original Greek word

πράσινος
prásinos

which means "green" as in the color, and saying that it means "bird." It means no such thing.
The Latins got it wrong, the translated it "aeternus" which means eternal, and which is like
translating prasinos as "bird." Now I'm telling you that it means "green" and you don't care.
Don't try to impress me with your THE BIBLE ONLY!!!! position when you are not willing to actually
care one bit about what the Bible really says in the original Greek. That is dishonest and
agenda-serving!~!!

Much learning is making you mad! I don't know what you are on about here, and what birds have to do with "eternal"???

For your information, the Greek word translated "eternal" in Mathew 25:46 (twice), is "αἰώνιος" (aionios). It is interesting to note Dr Joseph Thayer's defination in his Greek-English lexicon, for this text in matthew, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". Dr Thayer was a Unitarian, and as such did not himself believe in "eternal punishment". However, he is here dealing with the meaning of words, and giving them as they are in the Greek and English languages, and not giving his personal views on how the word should be defined, though he does make his comments elsewhere on other important words. It is very clear that "αἰώνιος" here for both uses, mean "without end". In the Greek-English lexicon for classical Greek, Liddell and Scott for this Bible verse has it, "perpetual, eternal". This is solid, irrefutable evidence!

 

[Christodoulos]

Had you extended me the common courtesy of reading my post and the post I was responding to you would have known what my purpose was. Also when folks start arguing about "I have the correct interpretation." "Nuh uh, I've got the correct interpretation." I look at the writings of the native Greek speaking early church to see how they interpreted those disputed verses. They were 1400-1700 years closer to the time of the writing of the NT it is more likely they are correct than anonymous people on the internet who probably don't know the difference between an aorist and an apple or a hithpael and a hatpin.

says you!

 

[Light of the East]

Much learning is making you mad! I don't know what you are on about here, and what birds have to do with "eternal"???

For your information, the Greek word translated "eternal" in Mathew 25:46 (twice), is "αἰώνιος" (aionios). It is interesting to note Dr Joseph Thayer's defination in his Greek-English lexicon, for this text in matthew, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". Dr Thayer was a Unitarian, and as such did not himself believe in "eternal punishment". However, he is here dealing with the meaning of words, and giving them as they are in the Greek and English languages, and not giving his personal views on how the word should be defined, though he does make his comments elsewhere on other important words. It is very clear that "αἰώνιος" here for both uses, mean "without end". In the Greek-English lexicon for classical Greek, Liddell and Scott for this Bible verse has it, "perpetual, eternal". This is solid, irrefutable evidence!

It is no such thing. Greek scholars have written extensively on the fact that aionios means "age-long." The root of the word is "aion" which means age.

I am stunned that you didn't get my point with the green and bird. The point is, you cannot make a word mean something else other than what it means simply because you want it to. That is what you are doing.

How old are you anyway?

 

[Christodoulos]

It shows what was believed in the first centuries of the Church (which also shows that whatever flavor of Protestantism you follow, it didn't exist back then, which should worry you).

How comes you guys don't answer my challenges for the Books of the Old Testament, from Jesus' Words in Luke's Gospel, which I have shown. From Josephus, and the Synod at Jamnia, all proving beyond any doubt to the honest mind, that there are ONLY 39 Books in the Old Testament? This is an open challenge to ANY one to disprove!

 

[Christodoulos]

It is no such thing. Greek scholars have written extensively on the fact that aionios means "age-long." The root of the word is "aion" which means age.

I am stunned that you didn't get my point with the green and bird. The point is, you cannot make a word mean something else other than what it means simply because you want it to. That is what you are doing.

How old are you anyway?

"no such thing"??? So the Greek AUTHORITIES in lexicons are wrong??? This shows beyond any doubt that you guys are NOT interested in the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible, but only want to promote your bias!

 

[Christodoulos]

It is no such thing. Greek scholars have written extensively on the fact that aionios means "age-long." The root of the word is "aion" which means age.

I am stunned that you didn't get my point with the green and bird. The point is, you cannot make a word mean something else other than what it means simply because you want it to. That is what you are doing.

How old are you anyway?

I have also just consulted the classical Greek lexicon by Dr Sophocles, where he defines, "αἰώνιος", "eternal, everlasting" (page 98). is he also wrong?

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, but for how long. Nothing is said about the duration of the punishment, is there?
Yes, but for how long?
Says nothing in that verse about "eternal torment." The land promise was part of the blessing of the Old Covenant, so it is questionable that you can even use this for your defense. It is like apples and oranges.

Please figure out how to use the quote function.When does Clement say any of the punishment he mentions will end? It has been 1400-1700 years and Clement's letter still reads the same and it will for time immemorial. Your "land promise" argument is speculation. Clement says nothing about any promise

Again, this is the Old Covenant. It is promising the destruction of the wicked from the face of the earth, which says nothing about their eternal welfare. Remember, Old Covenant blessings and curses had to do with this realm on earth. Do you not find it strange that there is not one single verse which mentions "hell" or eternal torment in hell in all of Judaism and its verses???

Irrelevant. Clement was not a Jew and was not concerned about such things? Clement never mentions the law and only mentions covenant once Chap. XV where he says the Jews were not faithful to God's covenant. You must have missed my post about the Jews belief in hell. I'll repeat it here for you.

See? FROM THE EARTH. Jewish land blessing. Not at all about eternal welfare of the soul.

Clement does not say anything like that.

Hades or Sheol. The grave. Has nothing to do with the Medieval Roman Catholic concept of an eternal hell where God tortures the wicked forever and St. Thomas Aquinas and the saints look on with unrestrained glee.

Nonsense! Where does anything say the saints will be looking on hell?
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Here from the Jews own historic records.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[Der Alte]

says you!

Is that the best you can do?

 

[Der Alte]

The English translations come from the Latin. The Latin was translated wrongly. The Latins did not understand Greek and instead of translating it "age-long" or "age-during," they translated it eternal....

Assertions with no, zero, none evidence.

 

[Christodoulos]

Is that the best you can do?

your comments are rather silly. You suppose that just because something was written 100's or 1000's of years ago, therefore they must be more reliable than what we say now? this is complete nonsense, and got my response!

 

[Der Alte]

your comments are rather silly. You suppose that just because something was written 100's or 1000's of years ago, therefore they must be more reliable than what we say now? this is complete nonsense, and got my response!

Did you read my post? I did not say or imply that "just because something was written 100's or 1000's of years ago, therefore they must be more reliable." But I do think that early church fathers such as Polycarp and Ignatius who were students of the apostle John and Irenaeus who was a student of Polycarp are more likely to be correct than people today who know nothing about Hebrew or Greek. And as I said native Greek speaking Christan who lived 1400-1700 years closer to the events are more likely to be correct. And if one wants to condemn the entire early church as wrong they need to prove it. I don't think it is an acceptable Christian practice to condemn an entire group of people with no, zero, none evidence, just because their record contradicts someone's pet assumptions/presuppositions..

 

[Christodoulos]

Did you read my post? I did not say or imply that "just because something was written 100's or 1000's of years ago, therefore they must be more reliable." But I do think that early church fathers such as Polycarp and Ignatius who were students of the apostle John and Irenaeus who was a student of Polycarp are more likely to be correct than people today who know nothing about Hebrew or Greek. And as I said native Greek speaking Christan who lived 1400-1700 years closer to the events are more likely to be correct. And if one wants to condemn the entire early church as wrong they need to prove it. I don't think it is an acceptable Christian practice to condemn an entire group of people with no, zero, none evidence, just because their record contradicts someone's pet assumptions/presuppositions..

I did read your post and fully understand it, and disagreed then, as I do now. makes no difference whether Polycarp or Ignatius knew the Apostle John, as their writings are NOT inspired other than the Holy Spirit may have given them insight as He does to any believer. I know Biblical and some Classical Greek, and some Latin, but without the Holy Spirit guiding it means nothing as only He can lead us into His Truth! Why should a native Greek speaking Christian 1000 years ago be any more correct than a person today with Greek knowledge? Your reasoning is faulty!

 

[chevyontheriver]

How comes you guys don't answer my challenges for the Books of the Old Testament, from Jesus' Words in Luke's Gospel, which I have shown. From Josephus, and the Synod at Jamnia, all proving beyond any doubt to the honest mind, that there are ONLY 39 Books in the Old Testament? This is an open challenge to ANY one to disprove!

This thread was initially an issue about universalism. That seems lost now in all of the silliness about claims that the Bible is only supposed to have 66 books. Too much thread drift for me. Too many people sniping from too many angles. I'm done, with the usual note to self that anything in CCT is worse than a waste of time. But will I remember that note in a month? Sadly not likely. But I'm going to try.