Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

No, no. I said; Eph 1:19 A"what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
It's clearly conditional on belief."

Yes, it is. I pointed that out.

This is not those who once believed, but those who currently believe.

Oh, excuse me. I see you're still confused about things.

Eternal life is given as a gift to believers. That MEANS it is given WHEN one believes, and you're going to have to prove otherwise if you don't believe me.

So, the GUARANTEE comes into play the MOMENT one believes. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption.

And, as Jesus pointed out, they shall never perish. John 10:28

And in John 10 it's also conditional, it's the sheep who follow who are given eternal life and will never perish. If one ceases to follow, he is no longer one of his sheep.

I'm going to have to assume that English isn't your strongest suit. Where in v.27 or v.28 do you find any words that indicate a conditional clause? Huh?

What is there is simple and clear. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO.

Or, it is a policy statement of what Jesus' sheep are SUPPOSED TO DO.

What it isn't is any kind of conditional clause about how to never perish.

But, please, show me the exact words in either verse that indicate a condition to be met.

However, I'll point out what might be considered a condition, if that's what you're looking for.

The condition for never perishing is to be given eternal life by Jesus.

btw, at the end of my post to you, I asked this:
"Please answer this question:

Can a recipient of eternal life perish?"

I noticed that you ignored the question.

Here's the reality; those who believe that one can lose salvation, and hence, eternal life, DO believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus was extremely clear:
I give them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why don't you realize that your view is in direct conflict with the Lord Jesus's?

So don't worry about not answering my question. Your belief in "conditional security" tells me your answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 10:27 ...
It's also the sheep who hear Jesus' voice, and the sheep whom He knows!

That's pretty obvious, don'tcha think?

To be a sheep of Jesus, they have to hear Him before they can believe in Him.

Rom 10-
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

There are many CONDITIONAL "IF" verses in the NT.
Maybe I should post them all AGAIN.

I would be quite happy if you only posted the single BEST and MOST CLEAR "iffy" verse about salvation being conditional.

But, they are only for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, etc.

Why don'tcha think they wouldn't be for every believer to know and believe? Why hide it from anyone?

And I know you are one of those blessed believers.

Except you don't have the authority to decide who gets "in" on the deep doctrines, as you insinuate.

So, please determine the single best and clearest "iffy" verse on conditional salvation.

btw, I ended my post to you with this question:

"Can a recipient of eternal life perish?"

But you didn't answer my question.

But we all know that those who DO believe that someone can lose salvation, and hence, eternal life, WILL perish.

So, don't worry about not answering my question. Your position on salvation already answered my question.

So, in fact, your view is in direct conflict with that of the Lord Jesus's statement.

He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

The word "shall never" is just the opposite of "can". Just to be clear.

 

[renniks]

Yes, it is. I pointed that out.


Oh, excuse me. I see you're still confused about things.

Eternal life is given as a gift to believers. That MEANS it is given WHEN one believes, and you're going to have to prove otherwise if you don't believe me.

So, the GUARANTEE comes into play the MOMENT one believes. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption.

And, as Jesus pointed out, they shall never perish. John 10:28


I'm going to have to assume that English isn't your strongest suit. Where in v.27 or v.28 do you find any words that indicate a conditional clause? Huh?

What is there is simple and clear. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO.

Or, it is a policy statement of what Jesus' sheep are SUPPOSED TO DO.

What it isn't is any kind of conditional clause about how to never perish.

But, please, show me the exact words in either verse that indicate a condition to be met.

However, I'll point out what might be considered a condition, if that's what you're looking for.

The condition for never perishing is to be given eternal life by Jesus.

btw, at the end of my post to you, I asked this:
"Please answer this question:

Can a recipient of eternal life perish?"

I noticed that you ignored the question.

Here's the reality; those who believe that one can lose salvation, and hence, eternal life, DO believe that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus was extremely clear:
I give them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why don't you realize that your view is in direct conflict with the Lord Jesus's?

So don't worry about not answering my question. Your belief in "conditional security" tells me your answer.

Lol, you can't read scripture like a math formula and hope to understand what is being said. Why does the something that indicates that eternal life can be lost have to be in those two verses? Your logic is not logical...

 

[Phil W]

And you can't support any of this from Scripture.

It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” (John 8:32-34)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

Please answer this question.
Can a recipient of eternal life perish?

No, as that eternal life will be granted at the final judgement.
It is written..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(Matt 7:21-23)

 

[Phil W]

This is a failure to understand what being "set free" means. It doesn't mean to no longer sin.

It means freed from the penalty of sin. The theological term is justification.

You are in error.
It is written..."For he that is dead, (crucified with Christ at water baptism), is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lol, you can't read scripture like a math formula and hope to understand what is being said.

lol. This is funny.

How am I reading Scripture "like a math formula"?

The real question is why you so badly misunderstand (reading) John 10:27,28.

There are no conditions indicated in either verse, as I pointed out.

Why does the something that indicates that eternal life can be lost have to be in those two verses?

Seriously? How can the potential for eternal life to be lost WHEN Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH??

Do you really not grasp the meaning of "SHALL NEVER PERISH"??

Since recipients of eternal life are believers who are given the gift of eternal life WHEN they believe, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, you continue to believe the exact opposite of what Jesus SAID. Do you really not know that?

He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You continue to believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

But to answer your question: (Why does the something that indicates that eternal life can be lost have to be in those two verses?), how could there even be any indication that eternal life can be lost WHEN Jesus SAID the opposite?

Unlike yourself, I DO answer questions given to me.

But just face the fact that you DO believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, even though Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Your logic is not logical...

No, the very fuzzy logic is all on you.

You believe recipients of eternal life CAN perish.
Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER perish.

Do you not grasp the total difference between the words "can" and "shall never"??

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And you can't support any of this from Scripture."

It is written...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

Is this support for your notions? Research the Greek word for 'perfect', and you'll see your error.

otoh, I'll do the research for you.
The Greek word: τέλειοι
It's meaning: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect

By complete, it also include "mature". iow, Jesus was telling the people to grow up, be mature.

If you think Jesus was telling people to be perfect, as in no flaws, etc, you are quite mistaken.

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” (John 8:32-34)

And just what would be your point here? There is nothing about saved people never sinning.

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

Same word group. Here, the lexicon translates it: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect

But don't take my word for it. biblehub.com gives you the meaning of the Greek in every verse.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Committing sin and "serving sin" are 2 different things. Takes discernment.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

Yes. Freed from the PENALTY of sin. It's called justification.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

Not even close to your opinion. This is about being IN fellowship with the Lord and being filled with the Spirit, which, btw, is a COMMAND to obey.

Do you know HOW to be filled with the Spirit? And how to be IN fellowship?

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

The VERY FACT that Paul addresses saved people to "sin not" means they are. In fact, he's telling them to "wake up".

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

Again, not even close to your opinion. Jesus bore our sin on the cross, and paid that debt that we owed. To be "made the righteousness of God" means to be declared righteous. How so? Jesus' righteousness is imputed to the believer.

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

The NASB translates the Greek word: 'be made complete' and is of the same word group as the other words already noted.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

Again, not even close to your opinion. And nothing here about never sinning again.

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

To be complete, mature.

" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

Ditto.

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

The command to "depart iniquity" clearly shows not only a potential to do so, but the reality of it. Or else Paul would not have written that.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

English Standard Version
that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

New American Standard Bible
so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
King James Bible
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

International Standard Version
so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action.

NET Bible
that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They equip God's servants so that they are completely prepared to do good things.

American Standard Version
That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.Darby Bible Translation
that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work.

English Revised Version
that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

No, as that eternal life will be granted at the final judgement.

Oh, I see.

So then, you don't believe these words of Jesus:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Or these words from the beloved apostle, John:

1 John 5-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

At least know that you are in direct conflict with both Jesus and John.

The present tense for "has" and "have" refute your notions.

It is written..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

"Entering into the kingdom" isn't when one receives eternal life. The gift is given WHEN one believes, as I showed above.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(Matt 7:21-23)

What's the point here? Since Jesus said that He NEVER knew them, it is obvious that they never believed in Him.

Regardless of what they did in His name.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"This is a failure to understand what being "set free" means. It doesn't mean to no longer sin.

It means freed from the penalty of sin. The theological term is justification."

You are in error.

lol. OK then, you don't have any idea what the word "justification" means.

It is written..."For he that is dead, (crucified with Christ at water baptism), is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)

Sure. Every time you come across the phrase 'freed from sin', just know that it is referring to the penalty of sin.

But never mind. Your mind has been made up.

Just remember what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
They shall never perish.

The clearest statement about eternal security in the Bible.

 

[Phil W]

Free grace 2
And just what would be your point here? There is nothing about saved people never sinning.

People who continue to commit sin don't believe Him.
They are unbelievers.
John 8:32-34 makes my point clearly.
The "truth" will free you from committing sin.
If you don't believe it, you will continue to find ways to perpetuate your sinning.

 

[BCsenior]

People who continue to commit sin don't believe Him. They are unbelievers.
John 8:32-34 makes my point clearly. The "truth" will free you from committing sin.
If you don't believe it, you will continue to find ways to perpetuate your sinning.

Hebrews 3 & 4 teach us >>> disobedience proves unbelief.
vvv
----------------------Do some people here care? No.

 

[renniks]

Since recipients of eternal life are believers who are given the gift of eternal life WHEN they believe, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, you continue to believe the exact opposite of what Jesus SAID. Do you really not know that?

Who are the recipients of eternal life? His sheep. What defines his sheep?

Seriously? How can the potential for eternal life to be lost WHEN Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH??

Do you really not grasp the meaning of "SHALL NEVER PERISH"??

Since recipients of eternal life are believers who are given the gift of eternal life WHEN they believe, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, you continue to believe the exact opposite of what Jesus SAID. Do you really not know that?

He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You continue to believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

But to answer your question: (Why does the something that indicates that eternal life can be lost have to be in those two verses?), how could there even be any indication that eternal life can be lost WHEN Jesus SAID the opposite?

Unlike yourself, I DO answer questions given to me.

But just face the fact that you DO believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, even though Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

Ok, let's spell it out for you. Step one, enter through Christ for salvation.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

What defines the sheep? They know Christ. They listen to his voice.


27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Whoops, there it is again. What defines his sheep? They listen to his voice they know him and a new one here, they follow him.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Who does he give eternal life to? Who can never be snatched out of his hand? His sheep! Who are his sheep. We covered that, didn't we? "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Will he claim to know the ones who did not listen to his voice? The ones who did not follow him?

Now, this isn't the only time Jesus makes statements like this. In Matthew 7 he says this:
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Sound fa-miler?
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

But, he doesn't stop there. He says we have to DO something.
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

What? We can still be thrown in the fire if we once believed?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

What happened to all those who entered, but never bore fruit, who didn't follow or listen to his voice?
He says he doesn't know them.
It's not enough to mentally consent to the fact that Jesus is Lord. It has to change you. You have to listen and follow, or like in the parable of the sower, it will be something that only springs up for a short time and then withers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

People who continue to commit sin don't believe Him.

I don't believe you. The Bible does not support your claims.

They are unbelievers.

The opinion that only unbelievers sin is unsubstantiated in Scripture. The commands to not sin prove your opinion to be wrong.

John 8:32-34 makes my point clearly.

No it doesn't.

The "truth" will free you from committing sin.

Where do you get that? Clearly NOT from John 8 or anywhere else in the Bible.

Being set free is about the penalty of sin.

If you don't believe it, you will continue to find ways to perpetuate your sinning.

lol. As if one need to "find ways". That's funny. In a weird sort of way.

The word "flesh" and "fleshly" are also translated as "sin nature", which we all still have.

Until, that is, we leave our bodies of corruption and enter eternity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who are the recipients of eternal life? His sheep. What defines his sheep?

Good question. Answered in John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

From a whole host of other verses we know that salvation is by faith in Christ.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Not convinced yet? No problem. Let's look at how to have eternal life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

Ok, let's spell it out for you. Step one, enter through Christ for salvation.

I already did. v.9. See above for all the verses.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

What defines the sheep? They know Christ. They listen to his voice.

The "definition" is just a description. It's NOT causal at all, as you are trying to insinuate.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Whoops, there it is again. What defines his sheep? They listen to his voice they know him and a new one here, they follow him.

As I said, v.27 is a description (definition) of His sheep. But what v.27 ISN'T is how to become His sheep. Nothing causal in v.27.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Who does he give eternal life to? Who can never be snatched out of his hand? His sheep!

Right. Believers. I've PROVEN the FACT that eternal life is possessed by those who believe.

Who are his sheep. We covered that, didn't we? "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

This statement proves nothing about HOW to become His sheep. That was covered back in v.9.

Will he claim to know the ones who did not listen to his voice? The ones who did not follow him?

He will claim everyone to whom He has given eternal life. Believers. All of them.

9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

Entering through the gate is a metaphor for faith in Christ, as I showed above.

But, he doesn't stop there. He says we have to DO something.
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Where is any comment what we MUST DO? Nowhere here.

What? We can still be thrown in the fire if we once believed?

Since you didn't get this notion from the verses above, did you just now make it up?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

And...what's the point here? This crowd was NEVER known by the Lord. That means they never believed in Him. As their appeal clearly shows. They base their ENTIRE appeal on entering the kingdom on what they DID themselves. They NEVER had faith.

What happened to all those who entered, but never bore fruit, who didn't follow or listen to his voice?
He says he doesn't know them.

This is just conflation of verses.

It's not enough to mentally consent to the fact that Jesus is Lord. It has to change you.

In the first place, no one is saved by mentally consenting to the fact that Jesus is Lord. Are you kidding? Are you totally unfamiliar with 1 Pet 3:15, which was addressed to believers. Already saved people.

 

[renniks]

Since you didn't get this notion from the verses above, did you just now make it up?

No, because it's exactly what is said.

 

[renniks]

This statement proves nothing about HOW to become His sheep. That was covered back in v.9.

No, but it does explain how we remain his sheep. Thanks for all the additional verses confirming that only believers are given eternal life.

 

[Phil W]

Hebrews 3 & 4 teach us >>> disobedience proves unbelief.
vvv
----------------------Do some people here care? No.

Your point is made especially clear in Heb 3:12, 14, 18-19 and Heb 4:6.

 

[Phil W]

-19

I don't believe you. The Bible does not support your claims.

I believe Heb 3:12, 14, 17-19.

The opinion that only unbelievers sin is unsubstantiated in Scripture. The commands to not sin prove your opinion to be wrong.

Those sheep who follow Jesus obey the exhortations of our Lord and of His apostles.

Where do you get that? Clearly NOT from John 8 or anywhere else in the Bible.

Jesus' words are..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free"..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32, 34)

Being set free is about the penalty of sin.

What exactly is the penalty for sin that you were freed from?
Scrip' please.

The word "flesh" and "fleshly" are also translated as "sin nature", which we all still have.

If you believe that falsehood you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Since you didn't get this notion from the verses above, did you just now make it up?"

No, because it's exactly what is said.

Then you don't understand the meaning of the word "exactly". What you said wasn't even close to what the verse says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, but it does explain how we remain his sheep.

Then I challenge you to show the exact words that mean "remain" in either v.27 or v.28 of John 10.

But of course, you can't. Because they aren't there.

Thanks for all the additional verses confirming that only believers are given eternal life.

How about some thanks for proving that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5-
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So then, since eternal life is given to those who believe, and WHEN they believe, Jesus' words in John 10:28 apply to them.

So, from the MOMENT one believes, they are guaranteed NOT to ever perish.

You're very welcome!

 

[FreeGrace2]

BCsenior said: ↑
Hebrews 3 & 4 teach us >>> disobedience proves unbelief.
vvv
----------------------Do some people here care? No.

Your point is made especially clear in Heb 3:12, 14, 18-19 and Heb 4:6.

Phil, could you answer just one question for me?

Did Moses enter heaven or not?