Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

 

[Not David]

Me, the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, most of the Historical Protestant Churches, and other non-denominational and Evangelical Churches disagree.

 

[Basil the Great]

We all can quote Scripture and support both sides of this argument. The bottom line is that none of us can be certain as to to the truth of this long debated point. However, there is little evidence, if any, that the Early Church believed that they could not lose their salvation. Hence, it would seem prudent to assume that we can possibly lose our salvation and thus be on guard every day. After all, as it says in Matthew 24:13, "He who endures to the end shall be saved". This would seem to indicate that those who fail to endure will not be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Me, the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, most of the Historical Protestant Churches, and other non-denominational and Evangelical Churches disagree.

Could you explain the verses I provided in the OP then? I demonstrated that "sleep" refers to lifestyle, not only in 1 Thess 5, but several other passages.

Given that fact, please give evidence that 1 Thess 5:10 doesn't teach that regardless of lifestyle, the believer will "live together with Him".

Your argument is basically based on democracy. But God's Word isn't based on democracy, but rather, His own plan for mankind.

 

[Not David]

Could you explain the verses I provided in the OP then? I demonstrated that "sleep" refers to lifestyle, not only in 1 Thess 5, but several other passages.

Given that fact, please give evidence that 1 Thess 5:10 doesn't teach that regardless of lifestyle, the believer will "live together with Him".

Your argument is basically based on democracy. But God's Word isn't based on democracy, but rather, His own plan for mankind.

I don't see how it talks about not losing salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

The short answer is that eternal life which has been given to believers as the gift of God, is not temporary but eternal. If it can be taken away from believers, it would not be eternal, and God would be lying when He says that the new life He gives to converted believers is eternal.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We all can quote Scripture and support both sides of this argument.

If "both" sides can be supported by Scripture, then God's very Word isn't all that reliable. If both sides are supported in Scripture, words don't mean anything, and we can basically prove most anything we want from Scripture.

I do not agree or believe that God's Word contradicts itself.

The bottom line is that none of us can be certain as to to the truth of this long debated point.

I'll challenge you the same way I challenged David Cabrera.

However, there is little evidence, if any, that the Early Church believed that they could not lose their salvation.

This is true. By the 2nd Century, the concept of grace had all but been forgotten, or at least grossly misunderstood. But tht doesn't prove anything. Other than the early church grossly misunderstood God's Word.

Hence, it would seem prudent to assume that we can possibly lose our salvation and thus be on guard every day.

Is it really "prudent" to disbelieve what God has promised? I think not.

After all, as it says in Matthew 24:13, "He who endures to the end shall be saved". This would seem to indicate that those who fail to endure will not be saved.

Have you considered the actual context for this verse?

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold

v.3-12 refer to the end of the age Tribulation. So "enduring to the end" specifically refers to the "end of the Tribulation", which is a 7 year period of time.

So v.13 doesn't refer to all of humanity.

Further, consider these verses, in the same context, that follow v.13 -

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So, it seems rather clear that v.13 is about living through the Tribulation. Not about working for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't see how it talks about not losing salvation.

Where does the idea of losing salvation occur in 1 Thess 5:4-10? Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The short answer is that eternal life which has been given to believers as the gift of God, is not temporary but eternal. If it can be taken away from believers, it would not be eternal, and God would be lying when He says that the new life He gives to converted believers is eternal.

Amen. And if eternal life could be lost, taken back, etc, that would make Jesus' promise in John 10:28 a lie.

 

[Not David]

I don't need to prove anything since these threads get repeated a lot and no one changes their minds. Mentioning John 10:28 shows this is going to be one of those threads.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I don't need to prove anything since these threads get repeated a lot and no one changes their minds. Mentioning John 10:28 shows this is going to be one of those threads.

It wasn't just that one verse though. If it was just that one statement by Jesus I might say you have a point. But, it's taught THROUGHOUT the Bible. An example is John 6:37-40 that's listed as the one trump all argument. If a believers salvation can be lost than why did Jesus say that not a single believer given to him by God the Father will be lost? That he came here to do the Father's will and the Father's will is that EVERYONE who looks to the son and believes in him will have eternal life? There are many statements by both Jesus and throughout the Bible that state that God keeps his children eternally. Christ also said that the Holy Spirit will live inside of a believer for forever in literally every English translation of the Bible. If salvation can be lost than why does the HS live inside of a believer for forever? In other words, why would the Holy Spirit live inside of somebody that's in hell or continue to live inside of a lost person? He left Saul and it was threatened that the HS would be taken from David if he didn't change but in the New Covenant it's different. It just defies logic. Christ did NOT say that the HS lives in us temporarily.

It isn't just the one verse that protestants keep quoting it's MANY verses. If God doesn't keep and completely forgive his children than Jesus, Isaiah, Paul, Peter, John, Micah, David, Daniel, the writer of Hebrews ...etc all lied and the Bible isn't the word of God. Is that what you're claiming? Because by saying that salvation can be lost you're essentially calling all of them a liar and are claiming that.

 

[Not David]

It wasn't just that one verse though. If it was just that one statement by Jesus I might say you have a point. But, it's taught THROUGHOUT the Bible. An example is John 6:37-40 that's listed as the one trump all argument. If a believers salvation can be lost than why did Jesus say that not a single believer given to him by God the Father will be lost? That he came here to do the Father's will and the Father's will is that EVERYONE who looks to the son and believes in him will have eternal life? There are many statements by both Jesus and throughout the Bible that state that God keeps his children eternally. Christ also said that the Holy Spirit will live inside of a believer for forever in literally every English translation of the Bible. If salvation can be lost than why does the HS live inside of a believer for forever? In other words, why would the Holy Spirit live inside of somebody that's in hell or continue to live inside of a lost person? He left Saul and it was threatened that the HS would be taken from David if he didn't change but in the New Covenant it's different. It just defies logic. Christ did NOT say that the HS lives in us temporarily.

It isn't just the one verse that protestants keep quoting it's MANY verses. If God doesn't keep and completely forgive his children than Jesus, Isaiah, Paul, Peter, John, Micah, David, Daniel, the writer of Hebrews ...etc all lied and the Bible isn't the word of God. Is that what you're claiming? Because by saying that salvation can be lost you're essentially calling all of them a liar and are claiming that.

It talks about foreign enemies taking the believers, not the believers leaving for their own will.
Interesting how in John, the same Christ said: "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:6)

And I wouldn't use "Protestants" because there are Protestants who believe one can lose salvation.

 

[sdowney717]

It talks about foreign enemies taking the believers, not the believers leaving for their own will.
Interesting how in John, the same Christ said: "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:6)

And I wouldn't use "Protestants" because there are Protestants who believe one can lose salvation.

Yes, but the truth is they will remain in Him as He has willed it so, foreknown them and predestined them.

1 John 2 also says it this way about abiding in Him,
John is confident that God has given an anointing from Him to them so that they will remain in Him.

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[Not David]

Yes, but the truth is they will remain in Him as He has willed it so, foreknown them and predestined them.

1 John 2 also says it this way about abiding in Him,
John is confident that God has given an anointing from Him to them so that they will remain in Him.

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

It's talking about teaching, not salvation.

 

[sdowney717]

It's talking about teaching, not salvation.

Its talking about abiding, if your not abiding in Him, are your saved? refer to v24-25. The promise is that those who abide in the Father and Son have eternal life as His promise.

And it is impossible to be lost as those who are born of God do not and can not sin.
1 John 2
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[sdowney717]

But see you must understand, the real YOU, that is you the new creation in Christ, God created in righteousness and holiness and that is joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him. That is what John the Apostle is saying here that they do not and cannot sin, not even a tiny bit.

But since we still live in a body of flesh, as Paul wrote, 'the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. God has redeemed, saved the spirit of a man, but the body is not redeemed and dies and goes on to corruption. In the age of the Resurrection, God will give us new bodies, the old ones are never reformed.

God makes EVERYTHING NEW in the future, nothing of the old will remain.

 

[Not David]

But see you must understand, the real YOU, that is you the new creation in Christ, God created in righteousness and holiness and that is joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him. That is what John the Apostle is saying here that they do not and cannot sin, not even a tiny bit.

But since we still live in a body of flesh, as Paul wrote, 'the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. God has redeemed, saved the spirit of a man, but the body is not redeemed and dies and goes on to corruption. In the age of the Resurrection, God will give us new bodies, the old ones are never reformed.

God makes EVERYTHING NEW in the future, nothing of the old will remain.

Wait, you say that Christians don't sin but what about those who are Christians and had sinned?

 

[sdowney717]

Wait, you say that Christians don't sin but what about those who are Christians and had sinned?

Your missing the duality aspect here.
There is the old man of the flesh, and there is the new man of the Spirit inside every saved person.
That old man of the flesh sins and will never be saved, it is dead.
But you are not in the flesh if you are in the Spirit. The new YOU, the real you can not sin.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[sdowney717]

Ephesians 4 teaches us about The New Man, that we are to walk out our Christian life by living like the New Man, not the old one. It is like, the New Man is our true reality, but it can be masked by the old man of the flesh, but it is not the genuine us, if we are in Christ we are no longer in the flesh.

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[eleos1954]

Amen. And if eternal life could be lost, taken back, etc, that would make Jesus' promise in John 10:28 a lie.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.