Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Paul McGraw]

Peter thinks you can be perfectly obedient..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
Paul thinks you can be perfectly obedient..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
John thinks you can be perfectly obedient..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Jesus commanded it..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

Instead of picking up that cross daily, allow yourself to be killed on it, and then bury the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

I sincerely hope God does not expect me to match Jesus in sinless perfection, because I do not, and can not. If that is the standard, then I am doomed and lost. The verses you cite are exhortations describing our goal in living a Christian life. But no one but Jesus has ever met that goal. If we could succeed in living a sinless life, we would have no need for grace, since we will have earned our Salvation ourselves, without Jesus.

I recently studied 1 John, so I will address that one.

1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the Devil, . . .

I find this ESV wording more likely since it refers to a non-repentant person who deliberately chooses to keep sinning. It also then aligns with chapter 1.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rose tinted? What is rosy about believing I can fall away from God? It would be more convenient to believe one could not, but a dishonest reading of scripture.

If believing that one cannot lose salvation, how is that "dishonest"? That would mean there are very clear statements in Scripture that salvation can be lost.

So, please provide evidence that says that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I quoted:
"John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Exactly. The believer has crossed over. He currently has eternal life, and will not be judged if he dies in his current condition.

You have added the FALSE NOTION of "in his current condition". You don't have ANY evidence from Scripture for your notions.

The verse is a statement about eternal security. There is nothing about "if you keep on believing".

So does God take non-believers to heaven?

No, He takes His children, is own possession (Eph 1:14) to heaven. As He promises.

Because that's what you are saying.

I am not. The Bible NEVER describes a believer who falls away from the faith as an unbeliever. That's just an Arminian talking point. And it is false.

The Bible describes them as apostates. Look up the definition. It means to "no longer believe what was once believed".

In the same chapter Jesus said: "those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned." Seems pretty conditional to me.

So your theology is one of a works based salvation?? Really?

So then, you must strongly disagree with Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul's answer: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

btw, the verb 'believe' is in the aorist tense, which is basically a point in time concept.

So much for your "must continue to believe" ideas.

 

[renniks]

Can't God use His extreme irresistible grace to make a man sinlessly perfect?
Yes, He can.

First, grace isn't irresistible. Second, no man but Jesus has ever been sinless.

 

[renniks]

If believing that one cannot lose salvation, how is that "dishonest"? That would mean there are very clear statements in Scripture that salvation can be lost.

So, please provide evidence that says that salvation can be lost.

I already did. You just don't take them as written. And really, I don't believe it can be " lost". It can be deliberately thrown away, however.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not a Greek scholoar, and too old to learn that now. But I trust the dedicated people who have created our Bible translations. If God meant never, He would have said never. What else is there to say?

There's a lot to say. As I pointed out previously, the example of "I have not showered" is bogus, for the simple and obvious reason that showers are something that are done ROUTINELY. So anyone with a warm IQ knows that the statement cannot mean "has not ever showered".

But believing isn't like showering. Or do you think that every morning you need to express all over again your trust in Christ to save you?

If you think that, why don't you realize that such actions are really placing the emphasis on your continued actions, and NOT AT ALL on the work of Christ.

He died ONCE FOR ALL for our sins. When we believe, it's once for all.

Once we believe, we are born again, we become His children, and we are described as God's own possession.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,
through the living and enduring word of God. ...

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, ....

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What you cannot support from Scripture is ANY verse that undoes any of these things.

They are permanent. And you cannot show otherwise.

 

[renniks]

am not. The Bible NEVER describes a believer who falls away from the faith as an unbeliever. That's just an Arminian talking point. And it is false.

The Bible describes them as apostates. Look up the definition. It means to "no longer believe what was once believed".

Which is exactly the same as becoming an unbeliever. You believe that apostasy makes one an unbeliever, and yet God takes that unbeliever to be with him eternally. I don't. An unbeliever would not want to be with God, whom he rejected.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am just using words in the normal way that you and I would use them to have a conversation.

Once again, words have meaning IN CONTEXT. And it is preposterous to equate showering with believing. One is an repeated action, as EVERYONE knows and understands. Believing is NOT a repeated action for salvation.

You mentioned I was changing the meaning of never. I, of course, deny that.

And I deny your charge. I noted the necessity of CONTEXT to determine how to understand meaning of any sentence.

For the person who finishes the race in Christ, he will never die.

If you're thinking of 1 Cor 9:27, you are misunderstanding what Paul was meaning.

And that person can never be ripped from His hand.

That's NOT what Jesus said at all. He said recipients of eternal life (those He gives eternal life) shall never perish. He said NOTHING about having to finish any race.

He PROMISED that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Which you seem to disagree with.

Where we differ regards a person who no longer is even trying or wanting to be in Christ, by renouncing their faith.

No, where we differ is in believing what Jesus said in John 10:28, the single most clear statement about eternal security in the Bible.

I also have doubts about the organized crime people who murder the innocent, then make confession and believe they can enter heaven.

"making confession"?? That's pretty vague. Are you insinuating that evil people can't realize their sins, realize their need for salvation, and place their faith in Christ????

FreeGrace2 - please do not get angry. But I am very certain that you are avoiding the truth here.

Why would I get angry? This isn't personal, nor should it be. This is about the truth. And I can't make anyone believe anything. All I can do is explain the truth. It's up to each hearer to understand and then decide for themself what to believe.

But I'm giving you exactly what the Bible SAYS.

But God bless you. You are contending for the faith as you see it. And we mere mortals will not have a perfect understanding outside of Heaven.

What we do have are the clear and unambiguous words of Jesus concerning how NOT to EVER perish. Receive eternal life by faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"So, please provide evidence that says that salvation can be lost."

I already did. You just don't take them as written.

This is a good example of a punt. A dodge. If you really did have clear verses, you would be happy to repeat them. As I do all the time.

I sure did "take them as written". I acknowledged the words and explained what they mean.

But when have you addressed Jon 10:28 and explained what it means without ADDING concepts that are NOT in the verse? You haven't.

And really, I don't believe it can be " lost". It can be deliberately thrown away, however.

OK, another ADDED concept that is NOT in the Bible.

But, please explain where you came up with that then. Since it can't be found in the Bible. This notion that salvation can be "thrown away".

I'm convinced that if that were possible, the Bible would make that clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which is exactly the same as becoming an unbeliever.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. In spite of the facts.

As I noted, the Bible NEVER EVER describes an apostate as an unbeliever. In EVERY case, an unbeliever is one who NEVER believed.

You believe that apostasy makes one an unbeliever, and yet God takes that unbeliever to be with him eternally.

I do NOT believe that apostasy makes one an unbeliever. 'Apostasy' doesn't "make" anything. Your word choice is odd.

One BECOMES apostate WHEN one changes their mind about something the HAD believed.

What you seem to refuse to address is the issue of all the changes that occur WHEN one believes.

1. they possess eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11,13
2. they become the children of God. Gal 3:26
3. they become new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17
4. they are God's possession. Eph 1:14

So, show me ANY verse that speaks of ANY of these things being UNDONE.

btw, how does a new creature change back into an old creature?

How does a child become an UNCHILD?

 

[Paul McGraw]

There's a lot to say. As I pointed out previously, the example of "I have not showered" is bogus, for the simple and obvious reason that showers are something that are done ROUTINELY. So anyone with a warm IQ knows that the statement cannot mean "has not ever showered".

But believing isn't like showering. Or do you think that every morning you need to express all over again your trust in Christ to save you?

If you think that, why don't you realize that such actions are really placing the emphasis on your continued actions, and NOT AT ALL on the work of Christ.

He died ONCE FOR ALL for our sins. When we believe, it's once for all.

Once we believe, we are born again, we become His children, and we are described as God's own possession.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,
through the living and enduring word of God. ...

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, ....

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What you cannot support from Scripture is ANY verse that undoes any of these things.

They are permanent. And you cannot show otherwise.

This is well reasoned and I appreciate your position. Why do you and I read the same verse yet hear in our hearts two different meanings? Why are there literally millions of people on either side of this issue? I am grateful that you have shared with me your thinking on this. And I admire your steadfast assurance that your reading is correct.

I am far less certain than you that my understanding is correct. However, I have learned over the years to trust the actual words of the Bible, as I am best able to understand them, and not rely on the understanding of others.

I don't think my salvation depends on getting this one issue correct, or yours either. So, God bless you Brother and forgive me if I do not have the energy to contend with you further on this. I think you enjoy the "battle" and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[renniks]

You can believe whatever you want to believe. In spite of the facts.

As I noted, the Bible NEVER EVER describes an apostate as an unbeliever. In EVERY case, an unbeliever is one who NEVER believed.


I do NOT believe that apostasy makes one an unbeliever. 'Apostasy' doesn't "make" anything. Your word choice is odd.

One BECOMES apostate WHEN one changes their mind about something the HAD believed.

What you seem to refuse to address is the issue of all the changes that occur WHEN one believes.

1. they possess eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11,13
2. they become the children of God. Gal 3:26
3. they become new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17
4. they are God's possession. Eph 1:14

So, show me ANY verse that speaks of ANY of these things being UNDONE.

btw, how does a new creature change back into an old creature?

How does a child become an UNCHILD?

I will answer the other scriptures, but first, I'm sincerely puzzled by how you can agree that people apostatize, but what? They weren't saved to begin with? Or, God takes people who "changes their mind about something they had believed" to heaven (in this case that Christ died and rose for their redemption)

 

[renniks]

You can believe whatever you want to believe. In spite of the facts.

As I noted, the Bible NEVER EVER describes an apostate as an unbeliever. In EVERY case, an unbeliever is one who NEVER believed.


I do NOT believe that apostasy makes one an unbeliever. 'Apostasy' doesn't "make" anything. Your word choice is odd.

One BECOMES apostate WHEN one changes their mind about something the HAD believed.

What you seem to refuse to address is the issue of all the changes that occur WHEN one believes.

1. they possess eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11,13
2. they become the children of God. Gal 3:26
3. they become new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17
4. they are God's possession. Eph 1:14

So, show me ANY verse that speaks of ANY of these things being UNDONE.

btw, how does a new creature change back into an old creature?

How does a child become an UNCHILD?

All of those verses are specifically addressed to believers, or those who are "in Christ". Since we have multiple verses that tell us one can fall into false teachings, or fall away, I really don't see your issue here. You have to balance scripture with scripture. Anyone who is in Christ is a new creation. Amen! But, if you go back to following the law for your salvation, Christ will be of no use to you. Galations 5:2
If you don't remain in him. John 15:4 , you will be cut off. If you have an unbelieving heart. Hebrews 3:12, obviously you are no longer a believer and will fall away from the living God. I don't really know what is hard to understand about that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is well reasoned and I appreciate your position.

Thanks.

Why do you and I read the same verse yet hear in our hearts two different meanings?

Could it be one of us hears only what they want to believe? I pointed out the error of comparing the phrase "I have not showered" with "I have not believed". Showering is a routine activity, as understood by everyone but bush people. Believing is not.

A person has ever believed or never believed. It is that simple.

When the Bible speaks of who will be condemned as "those who have not believed", it isn't speaking about those who haven't showered today but did yesterday.

Here's the fact: if a person has ever believed, it cannot be said of them that they "have not believed", because they actually did at one time.

And there's nothing in either verse (Jn 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12) to indicate that believing needs to be done more than once.

Here's an example that is closer to the verses.

"I have not been to Mount Everest". Can you honestly say that this statement doesn't preclude that the person HAD been to Mount Everest in the past? Of course not.

Why? Because visiting Mount Everest doesn't include the idea that it is something routinely done. Anyone would have to agree that it could easily be a one time event.

Why are there literally millions of people on either side of this issue?

The Bible tells us that Satan has "deceived the whole world".

1 John 5:19 -
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. ...

Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

One way he leads the world astray is by false doctrines, to disrupt Christianity. That would explain diametrically opposed theologies and denominations.

I am grateful that you have shared with me your thinking on this. And I admire your steadfast assurance that your reading is correct.

If anyone can show me from the texts HOW my reading is incorrect, I'd be very grateful.

I am far less certain than you that my understanding is correct. However, I have learned over the years to trust the actual words of the Bible, as I am best able to understand them, and not rely on the understanding of others.

My understanding of Scripture is based directly on the actual worlds of the Bible and compared with the rest of Scripture.

The glaring hole in the doctrine of loss of salvation is that are no actual clearly stated verses to support the idea.

All the verses include metaphors, which are anything but clear, or statements that don't complete the idea. For example, Arminians point to "all the warning verses", as if each and every one is a warning about loss of salvation. Yet, upon examination, none of them even speak of salvation, but less loss of salvation.

In fact, these warnings to believers are a warning of God's divine discipline, such as Paul listed in 1 Cor 11:30, or James 5:19,20. Nothing about losing salvation, but directly about loss of blessings, health, and even ultimately physical death. That's no way to be called home, don't you think?

I don't think my salvation depends on getting this one issue correct, or yours either.

Well, consider this. What is the essence of saving faith? What, exactly, are you actually trusting IN for your salvation? iow, what is the ultimate determining factor regarding whether you enter heaven or not?

So, God bless you Brother and forgive me if I do not have the energy to contend with you further on this. I think you enjoy the "battle" and there is nothing wrong with that.

I do enjoy defending God's word. I hope my challenge about the essence of saving faith will help you to determine where your actual faith is placed.

From too many Arminians, I see from their posts that their real faith is in their own behavior and efforts in final salvation. Even though they won't admit it.

For me, my faith is ONLY in what Christ did for me and what has been said about those who have believed in Him for salvation.

1. They receive eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13
2. They are forgiven once for all. Acts 10:43, Heb 7:27 with ch 10
3. They are new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17
4. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14
5. They have passed from death to life. John 5:24

There are probably a few more points, but they escape me for now.

Anyway, what I have seen from Arminians is this:

1. no verses that clearly and plainly state that salvation can be lost.
2. their emphasis on what they MUST DO to either keep or regain salvation.
3. direct opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

I have asked several posters this question.

Can recipients of eternal life perish?

No one has answered the question.

It's not a trick question, but rather a very important one.

For, Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Yet, the loss of salvation crowd does believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

That's the difference between me and Arminians.

I believe what Jesus so very plainly said. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will answer the other scriptures, but first, I'm sincerely puzzled by how you can agree that people apostatize, but what? They weren't saved to begin with? Or, God takes people who "changes their mind about something they had believed" to heaven (in this case that Christ died and rose for their redemption)

My bottom line is exactly what Jesus said in John 10:28.

"I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

So, the question is: when do believers receive this gift of eternal life?

The answer is also from Jesus:

John 5:24, 6:47. Also from the beloved apostle, 1 John 5:11,13.

iow, those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.

So, the moment one believes, they HAVE eternal life, and John 10:28 applies to them.

Are you aware of any verse that teaches that the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit to believers can be undone, unsealed, etc?

Eph 1:13,14 is my reference.

So, if you can find such a verse, please share, because I'm not aware of any.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All of those verses are specifically addressed to believers, or those who are "in Christ". Since we have multiple verses that tell us one can fall into false teachings, or fall away, I really don't see your issue here.

I would say you don't want to see the issue.

The huge Arminian hang up is the false belief that a believer can be "removed from Christ", or unsealed from the Holy Spirit, as taught in Eph 1:13,14.

So, if you can provide any verse that clearly teaches that a believer who apostatizes will be unsealed, returned to an "old creature", etc, please share.

In the meantime, you don't have a case or point.

You have to balance scripture with scripture.

Finally, we agree on something.

So, go ahead and balance Scripture regarding the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Find just one verse in the NT about how anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit can be unsealed. Then you'd have a case and point.

But not until then.

Anyone who is in Christ is a new creation. Amen! But, if you go back to following the law for your salvation, Christ will be of no use to you. Galations 5:2

That's true but doesn't undo becoming a new creature.

If you don't remain in him. John 15:4 , you will be cut off.

The problem is that misunderstand the metaphor by a mile.

This isn't about maintaining salvation. It's about fellowship. iow, ONLY WHEN the believer is in fellowship with the Lord can they bear fruit.

If "remaining in Him" refers to staying in a saved state, then our salvation is ultimately in our own hands. An idea I strongly reject.

Our salvation is in God's hands, all the way. And John 10:28,29 doesn't permit you to claim otherwise.

If you have an unbelieving heart. Hebrews 3:12, obviously you are no longer a believer and will fall away from the living God.

Where do you get this "obviously" idea?

Again, I've given lists of what changes when one believes. So do your homework, find my lists above, and find verses that clearly speak of UNDOING these things that occur at the moment of salvation.

I don't really know what is hard to understand about that.

That's my thoughts exactly.

 

[Phil W]

I sincerely hope God does not expect me to match Jesus in sinless perfection, because I do not, and can not. If that is the standard, then I am doomed and lost. The verses you cite are exhortations describing our goal in living a Christian life. But no one but Jesus has ever met that goal. If we could succeed in living a sinless life, we would have no need for grace, since we will have earned our Salvation ourselves, without Jesus.

God does expect you to live as Jesus did.
He made a way for us to accomplish that.
He gifted us with repentance, baptism for the remission of past sins, the death of the old man and rebirth of a new man, the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ, and, among others things, escapes from every temptation.
Everyone who's repentance from sin was real have "met that goal".

I recently studied 1 John, so I will address that one.
1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the Devil, . . .
I find this ESV wording more likely since it refers to a non-repentant person who deliberately chooses to keep sinning. It also then aligns with chapter 1.

Any one who falsely turns from sin is a practicing sinner.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I expected your interpretation of that...
These lines were written of those walking in darkness-sin.
As was verse 6..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
But John also addresses those who walk in the light-God with verses 5, 7, and 9.
Those who have had all their prior sins washed away by the blood of Christ CAN say they have no sin.
They can continue to say they have no sin as long as they remain in the light...and nothing can pluck them out of the light.

 

[BCsenior]

Look, salvation cannot be lost,
John 10:28 and MANY more.

Hast thou forgotten that there are
HEAVY-DUTY CONDITIONS
attached to your blessed hope of
John 10:28?

They are listed for you in John 10:27,
which is the verse before John 10:28.

Paul, the FG2 is very well aware of these conditions.

 

[Phil W]

First, grace isn't irresistible. Second, no man but Jesus has ever been sinless.

You don't think there are folks who have resisted the grace of God?
What is the percentage of men who still commit sin on earth?
They are the resisters!

Every man that has submitted himself to God obey's Him perfectly.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2)

 

[BCsenior]

Can't God use His extreme irresistible grace to make a man sinlessly perfect? Yes, He can.

Against his free will, can He?