Salvation Cannot be Lost

[renniks]

but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in

Whoever does not believe, now ,(at this moment) stands condemned... I don't think it can get any clearer than that.
It doesn't make a bit of difference if they once believed 10 years ago or 3 seconds ago.

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace2,

1. Those that sleep and are drunk are unbelievers.

So, you ignored Rom 13:11-14, Eph 5:12-16, Ewc 3:1-3 and 16:15, all of which are addresses to believers.

All passages are about lifestyle. Sleeping and being alert are opposites. The lifestyle of unbelievers is characterized as sleeping or being drunk, and Paul and John used sleeping as a lifestyle of unbelievers and applied that to believers who are living just like unbelievers.

I proved my point in the OP.

Christians are not asleep as unbelievers are.

That isn't the point of 1 Thess 5, or any of the other passages.

The point is about believers who are living like unbelievers.

Haven't you read the last 2 verses of 2 Cor 12??
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

And Paul NEVER even hinted that anyone in that congregation were not saved, in either 1 Cor or 2 Cor.

Therefore whether we wake or sleep has to do with not destined for wrath but obtaining salvation from that wrath. It has nothing to do with lifestyle in the immediate context.

I have proved that it is about lifestyle, as ALL the references I gave show.

It is true that believers are obedient that go to Heaven but this has nothing to do with proving OSAS.

Are all believers "obedient"? Seems rather obvious that you are not all that familiar with the Bible.

2. John 10:28 is not the complete context of that chapter.

I never said nor suggested that it was. It IS, however, a clear and direct statement about eternal security.

Verse 27 is the condition that his sheep hear his voice and follow him.

No, it is either a simple description of what His sheep DO, or a policy statement about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.

Jesus was talking to Jews who were backslidden and out of covenant with God.
They also had the Mosaic covenant about the land Genesis 12-15 and the Davidic Covenant 2 Samuel 7:13-16, 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
Both of these are unconditional covenants in receiving the land and the Kingdom of Heaven on earth that Jesus preached and that Isaiah said they will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
The condition to receiving the unconditional covenants was for all Israel to be saved. They instead rejected him then and still do and will eventually all be saved Romans’ 11:25-29 for the gifts and callings are without repentance. Those gifts and callings are the Mosaic and Davidic Covenants concerning the physical land and bless the physical kingdom.
This is why when this happens that no one will snatch them out of the Fathers hand. This is the full context.

Bottom line: no one who has been given eternal life shall perish. Or OSAS.

3. Eternal life is an eternal substance but that doesn’t prove that eternal possession is guaranteed because man has a free will Joshua 24:15 and can backslide which Israel did many times.
In Moses day they all were baptized under the cloud and the sea but in the days of Korah they sinned and met sin’s judgement spiritually and physically.
Acts 2:44 shows that Ananias and Sapphira were part of those that believed and had all things in common. Yet they lied to the Holy Ghost and died in their footsteps.
Just as much as one can be saved eternally they can lose their salvation. It’s a possibility but not a big probability. Jerry Kelso[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in"

Whoever does not believe, now ,(at this moment) stands condemned

Nope. There is nothing about having to believe presently in order to avoid being condemned. It just ain't there.

... I don't think it can get any clearer than that.

I'm not sure you understand clarity.

It doesn't make a bit of difference if they once believed 10 years ago or 3 seconds ago.

And that's my point!! Once a person HAS believed, it cannot be said of them that they "have not believed". Because they had believed.

So the point remains; anyone who has believed will not be condemned.

Condemnation is for those who have NOT believed. Ever.

You're trying to make a point about the present tense, but it just isn't there.

 

[renniks]

Nope. There is nothing about having to believe presently in order to avoid being condemned. It just ain't there.

It says whoever does not believe,. How could you possibly take that as anything but present tense?

 

[renniks]

And that's my point!! Once a person HAS believed, it cannot be said of them that they "have not believed". Because they had believed

No that's exact opposite of your point. what matters is they believe now at this moment, not that they once did 10 years ago or 3 seconds ago.

 

[BCsenior]

Being "set free" means to be free from the penalty of sin.

Who would like to see ...
all of the NT verses which are supposed to teach us that
BACs have been set FREE from being slaves of sin!
BACs no longer have to sin (because they are new creations)!
BACs are NO longer slaves of sin, and NO longer slaves of Satan!

One who is FREE ... is free to choose!
So, choose a life of sin ...or... a life of obedience to Jesus!
Those who love Jesus choose to obey His commandments (4x in John 14).
Who gets to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?
Who gets to heaven who does NOT obey His commandments?

All anyone needs to do is ask, and I will display these verses in all of their glory!

 

[Phil W]

First you say "it would seem so" to the question of whether Moses entered heaven.
But then you waffled and equated the promised land with a picture of heaven, of which Moses wasn't allowed to enter.

Not "equated", but presaged.
While Moses' sin precluded him from the promised land, his access to the Mosaic Law enabled him to atone for the sin which would have damned him.
He was in heaven from whence he appeared to Jesus on the mount.

So, please quit waffling and give a straight answer. Recall that Moses' disobedience was described as "unbelief" in:
Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”
Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.
I hope you realize that the red words in these verses speak of 'unbelief'.

So, given what Her 3:19 says; " So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.", did Moses enter heaven or not?

The promised land was not heaven. That is what he couldn't enter.
It is also the subject of Heb 3:19, not heaven.
The events at Meribah-Kadesh occurred before the Law was given...and without a law there is no sin. (Rom 3:20)
Though Moses didn't have faith at Meribah, he did gain faith later.
He went to heaven.

I hope you see your conundrum.

I see no conundrum.
Moses' disposition was a template for us.
No faith-No promise.
Get faith-get promise.
Those calling themselves believers while in opposition to Christ are deluding themselves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It says whoever does not believe,. How could you possibly take that as anything but present tense?

You have misread both verses.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Now comes the obvious question:

Why do you assume that "does not" is the same as "have not"??

You're trying (vainly) to change a past tense word into a present tense word. But I caught you at it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No that's exact opposite of your point. what matters is they believe now at this moment, not that they once did 10 years ago or 3 seconds ago.

There is nothing about a present tense in either John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12.

 

[Phil W]

First, I don't "feel" anything. But I know quite a bit. And I do know what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish.

A wonderful promise it is.

But you have a totally opposite opinion, since you believe (maybe "feel") that some recipients of eternal life can and will perish.

Those in opposition to Christ have been promised nothing but damnation.
We can't call ourselves "believers" while we disobey Him.
God's word says God will provide escapes for every temptation in 1 Cor 10:13.
How come these disobedient "believers" don't believe that?

I don't have a "brand" of believers. Those are rather silly words.

OK...false believers then.

What I know is that all humans retain their human natures, from which they still sin. They have their sinful nature, the one they are born with, and a new nature, the one they are born again with. The new nature cannot sin (1 John 3:9), but the old nature continues to sin.

Then you "know" a lie.

So, the issue is this: which nature is the believer functioning from? But I've never met an Arminian who understands any of this.

Sinners are "functioning" from the uncrucified flesh.
"Believers have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

When a believer is in fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Spirit, they WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. Gal 5:16

That is correct.
Unfortunately you label them as "believers" anyway.

I cannot imagine how someone with your views understands Gal 5:16.

Thankfully, I know that men can walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. (Rom 8:1)

Again, your conclusions about what I believe is totally wrong. Those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire. Period. So, because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, no believer will take the mark.

This sin will disqualify their "belief"?
Why not every other type of sin?

It's very possible that believers in the Tribulation may lose faith, etc. So I believe that the various judgments from God will remove them from life. Lots of people will die in these judgments. The mark of the beast occurs during the second half of the Tribulation. However, by the end of the first half, the earth will have experienced both all 7 seal judgments and all 7 trumpet judgments.

Even you admit men can lose faith.
That loss is manifested by sin.

Some of God's divine discipline to His children include weakness, sickness and physical death. Paul said so in 1 Cor 11:30.
I have no doubt that all unfaithful believers during the Tribulation will be removed before the mark is given.
So, NO believers will take the mark.

Not the real ones.
But your doctrine feeds the illusion that they have already been given the gift of eternal life and nothing can remove them from their Fathers' hand.
What is the difference between believer and unbeliever to you?

The problem with your sinless views is that the Bible contradicts it. Again, Paul wrote in the PRESENT TENSE in Romans 7. And it wasn't some "historical present". And you haven't shown that it is. Just because there is such a thing as a historical present doesn't permit anyone to claim that Romans 7 was written in that tense.

Then he wasn't aware of the things he wrote in the previous chapter about the death of the old man and his own rebirth with Christ.

1 John 1-
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
The truth is not in you, based on v.8.

The lines addressed to those walking in darkness-sin, (6-8-10), don't apply to those walking in the light-God, (5-7-9).
John is writing about two very different kinds of men and their walks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Being "set free" means to be free from the penalty of sin."

Who would like to see ...
all of the NT verses which are supposed to teach us that
BACs have been set FREE from being slaves of sin!
BACs no longer have to sin (because they are new creations)!
BACs are NO longer slaves of sin, and NO longer slaves of Satan!

Being set free refers to the penalty of sin. Theologically, it's called justification.

Of course BACs no longer have to sin. But this isn't about "having" to do anything. The whole point is that BACs are still able to sin. It all depends upon which nature the BAC is functioning from.

That's why Paul commanded to be filled with and walk by means of the Spirit. BACs who do that will not sin.

And that's why Paul commanded to not grieve/quench the Spirit. BACs who do that ARE sinning.

It'a all about choice.

However, just because you don't have to sin, if you now claim that you are no longer sinning at all, 1 John 1:8 refutes your opinion.

One who is FREE ... is free to choose!

Exactly!

So, choose a life of sin ...or... a life of obedience to Jesus!

That is the choice.

Those who love Jesus choose to obey His commandments (4x in John 14).

Obviously.

Who gets to heaven who does NOT love Jesus?
Who gets to heaven who does NOT obey His commandments?

Now we get to the crux of the Arminian problem. Totally lacking any understanding of grace, and being highly offended by the sins of others, Arminians just can't stand to think that a rebellious child of God deserves to get to heaven. They need to DIE! DIE! DIE!

Yet, Jesus was clear. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

All anyone needs to do is ask, and I will display these verses in all of their glory!

The only real challenge for you is to provide your single BEST and CLEAREST verse on losing salvation.

But you don't have one and you know it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"First you say "it would seem so" to the question of whether Moses entered heaven.
But then you waffled and equated the promised land with a picture of heaven, of which Moses wasn't allowed to enter."

Not "equated", but presaged.

Why bother with that? We KNOW where Moses went. If not heaven, he sure wouldn't have appeared with Jesus at His transfiguration.

While Moses' sin precluded him from the promised land, his access to the Mosaic Law enabled him to atone for the sin which would have damned him.
He was in heaven from whence he appeared to Jesus on the mount.

However, your claim was that those guilty of unbelief and didn't enter the land shows how salvation is lost to such believers. iow, if they lose their faith, they lose their salvation.

The example of Moses thoroughly refutes your position.

The promised land was not heaven. That is what he couldn't enter.

Do you know what the promised land represents, since not heaven?

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"First you say "it would seem so" to the question of whether Moses entered heaven.
But then you waffled and equated the promised land with a picture of heaven, of which Moses wasn't allowed to enter."
Why bother with that? We KNOW where Moses went. If not heaven, he sure wouldn't have appeared with Jesus at His transfiguration.
However, your claim was that those guilty of unbelief and didn't enter the land shows how salvation is lost to such believers. iow, if they lose their faith, they lose their salvation.
The example of Moses thoroughly refutes your position.

Moses gained his faith after his disobedience, after the Law was instituted.
You are relying on OT doctrine to see you through NT times.
They couldn't be reborn in the OT.
They weren't given the gift of repentance from sin in the OT.
They couldn't crucify and bury the flesh with Jesus in the OT.
They couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life in the OT.
They all walked in the flesh in the OT. (Except chosen folks, for a certain amount of time)
All these things we have been enabled to do in the NT...if you are a believer.

Do you know what the promised land represents, since not heaven?

It was a "picture" of heaven.
We have been blessed with portents of our own behavior.
Believe, remain faithfully obedient, and heaven awaits.
Disobey God, manifesting your lack of faith, and perish.

 

[Phil W]

The only real challenge for you is to provide your single BEST and CLEAREST verse on losing salvation.
But you don't have one and you know it.

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Heb 4:11)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those in opposition to Christ have been promised nothing but damnation.

Right. They are unbelievers. They never believed. That's who will be damned.

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

We can't call ourselves "believers" while we disobey Him.

A believer is a child of God. How can disobedience change a child into an unchild??

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

So, please find any verse that teaches that a child of God can become an UNchild of God.

God'w word says God will provide escapes for every temptation in 1 Cor 10:13.
How come these disobedient "believers" don't believe that?

You're going to have to ask them. I have no idea.

Sinners are "functioning" from the uncrucified flesh.

OK. And believers out of fellowship and grieving/quenching the Spirit are functioning from their human nature, not their new born again nature.

"Believers have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Maybe you didn't read the WHOLE chapter. So, let's review, just for context, ok?

15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Addressed to believers.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

This is the ONLY WAY to avoid sinning. The believer must walk by the Spirit. And that is a choice. A Christian is either walking by the Spirit or by his own flesh.

Paul charged believers in Corinth for being "fleshly", and acting like "mere men", which refers to unbelievers. He said they were ACTING like unbelievers. He didn't call them unbelievers.

I said:
"When a believer is in fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Spirit, they WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. Gal 5:16"

That is correct.
Unfortunately you label them as "believers" anyway.

What motivates your urge to make up stuff? Paul never said such a thing about his audience in any of his epistles that weren't living lives of obedience?

Thankfully, I know that men can walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. (Rom 8:1)

Well, that's great. Of course they can. They are COMMANDED to. But you falsely think that's the only way believers can live. You have completely missed Paul's point.

I said:
"Again, your conclusions about what I believe is totally wrong. Those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire. Period. So, because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, no believer will take the mark."
This sin will disqualify their "belief"?
Why not every other type of sin?[/QUOTE]
This clearly indicates that you're not even reading my posts. I explained what will happen to disobedient believers. They will die from divine discipline BEFORE the mark of the beast will occur.

And it is simply ludicrous to say that any sin will disqualify one's belief. You sure know how to make up a lot of stuff.

Even you admit men can lose faith.

Of course I do. Jesus made that perfectly clear in Luke 8:13.

But your doctrine feeds the illusion that they have already been given the gift of eternal life and nothing can remove them from their Fathers' hand.

Wow, that's not very nice to say that the Bible feeds an illusion. I gave you very clear verses that SAY that those who believe POSSESS (HAVE) eternal life.
John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5;11,13.

And John 10:28 SAYS that those given eternal life shall never perish.

But, sadly, you seem unable to connect the dots.

What is the difference between believer and unbeliever to you?

A really odd question, imho.

A believer is one who has believed in the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their sin and gives the free gift of eternal life to those who have believed in Him.

An unbeliever is one who has never believed in the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their sin.

Then he wasn't aware of the things he wrote in the previous chapter about the death of the old man and his own rebirth with Christ.

What you seem to misunderstand is that the death of the old man refers to no longer being a slave to one's human nature, now that there's a brand new, born again nature that cannot sin.

The lines addressed to those walking in darkness-sin, (6-8-10), don't apply to those walking in the light-God, (5-7-9).
John is writing about two very different kinds of men and their walks.

Correct, but not for the right reasons.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Moses gained his faith after his disobedience, after the Law was instituted.

Please go ahead and prove your claim from Scripture.

You are relying on OT doctrine to see you through NT times.
They couldn't be reborn in the OT.

Haven't you read 1 Cor 10?

They weren't given the gift of repentance from sin in the OT.
They couldn't crucify and bury the flesh with Jesus in the OT.
They couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life in the OT.
They all walked in the flesh in the OT. (Except chosen folks, for a certain amount of time)
All these things we have been enabled to do in the NT...if you are a believer.

If people weren't reborn in the OT, please explain Ezek 36:26 -
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from
you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ...

I asked:
"Do you know what the promised land represents, since not heaven?"

It was a "picture" of heaven.

So then, Moses was given a picture of heaven that he couldn't enter.

You're just not making any sense.

We have been blessed with portents of our own behavior.
Believe, remain faithfully obedient, and heaven awaits.

Sure. That's pretty much what the Pharisees thought, too.

How many Pharisees do you think made it to heaven?

Disobey God, manifesting your lack of faith, and perish.

Well, at least your views are quite clear. Be a good person, and go to heaven. But, be a bad person, and burn, baby, burn.

Since you don't seem to know, that is nothing more than a works based salvation.

So, I've got some verses for you to meditate on.

Rom 3-
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 4 all of it. It's about how to be justified.
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 9-
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.

So Paul asks "why not" in v.32, and answers it in the same verse:
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Your view of salvation is one of works. You are, like Paul said, stumbling over the stumbling stone. You don't understand anything about GRACE, or faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Heb 4:11)

Yeah, there you go again. Just a bunch of works based salvation.

Read these over and over.

Rom 3-
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 4 all of it. It's about how to be justified.
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 9-
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.

So Paul asks "why not" in v.32, and answers it in the same verse:
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

 

[jerry kelso]

So, you ignored Rom 13:11-14, Eph 5:12-16, Ewc 3:1-3 and 16:15, all of which are addresses to believers.

All passages are about lifestyle. Sleeping and being alert are opposites. The lifestyle of unbelievers is characterized as sleeping or being drunk, and Paul and John used sleeping as a lifestyle of unbelievers and applied that to believers who are living just like unbelievers.

I proved my point in the OP.


That isn't the point of 1 Thess 5, or any of the other passages.

The point is about believers who are living like unbelievers.

Haven't you read the last 2 verses of 2 Cor 12??
20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

And Paul NEVER even hinted that anyone in that congregation were not saved, in either 1 Cor or 2 Cor.


I have proved that it is about lifestyle, as ALL the references I gave show.


Are all believers "obedient"? Seems rather obvious that you are not all that familiar with the Bible.


I never said nor suggested that it was. It IS, however, a clear and direct statement about eternal security.


No, it is either a simple description of what His sheep DO, or a policy statement about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.


Bottom line: no one who has been given eternal life shall perish. Or OSAS.

3. Eternal life is an eternal substance but that doesn’t prove that eternal possession is guaranteed because man has a free will Joshua 24:15 and can backslide which Israel did many times.
In Moses day they all were baptized under the cloud and the sea but in the days of Korah they sinned and met sin’s judgement spiritually and physically.
Acts 2:44 shows that Ananias and Sapphira were part of those that believed and had all things in common. Yet they lied to the Holy Ghost and died in their footsteps.
Just as much as one can be saved eternally they can lose their salvation. It’s a possibility but not a big probability. Jerry Kelso

[/QUOTE]

freegrace2,

1. I understand those scriptures but you didn’t get the immediate text right first.
A text without a context is just a pretext.
It is improper hermeneutics to take scriptures from another passage outside of the immediate context.

2. The immediate passage is about either being a Christian or not. It has nothing to do with personal lifestyle of a Christian being drunk or falling asleep and still be a Christian.
You are coercing and contriving that passage.
Romans 8 says the carnal mind is enmity with God and will result in death.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Christ coming which continues with the contrast of the Day of the Lord is not talking about behavioral problems of a Christian.
It is talking about being ready for the rapture.
Romans is specifically talking about daily living in the immediate passage. That doesn’t make it automatically so in another passage such as 1 Thessalonians 5.

2. Paul said I die daily in 1 Corinthians 15. What do you think he meant. If you think he was referring to Romans 6 you would be wrong.

3. So the only thing you proved in the OP is that you took a majority of outside scriptures to prove your failed assessment of the immediate passage.

4. You are confusing carnal Christians in Corinthians withs the carnal mind of Romans.
Christ will judge all righteously for their works but if they are really trying to have a relationship with God, they will be saved and not be burned by fire 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
But, at the same time one cannot serve two masters at one time according to Romans 6.
These are two separate issues and God knows the heart.

5. Believers are not always obedient but that doesn’t mean it is their nature.
We don’t sin because of who we are in Christ. but if we do we have an advocate with the Father who is the proposition for our sins and nots ours only, but the sins of the whole world.

6. It is about what Christians ought to do and what they do is hear his voice and follow him. This doesn’t mean they can’t fall from Grace and apostasize.
The children of Israel did as pointed out in Moses day and in the early church with Annanias and Sapphira.

7. The bottom line is you have the immediate context of 1 Thessalonians 5 wrong.
It it talking about being a Christian or an unbeliever. We are not to be slothful or like a drunkard in light of his coming.
It is not about personal behavior in a Christian believer in that context. Jerry Kelso

 

[Phil W]

A believer is a child of God. How can disobedience change a child into an unchild??

Just because they "said" they believed does not make them children of God.
His seed cannot bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
So, please find any verse that teaches that a child of God can become an UNchild of God.

You are correct.
If men say they are children of God, but bring forth evil fruit, it shows they were never children of God.

OK. And believers out of fellowship and grieving/quenching the Spirit are functioning from their human nature, not their new born again nature.

Real believers don't "go out of fellowship" with God.
Only the children of the devil do that. (1 John 3:10)

Maybe you didn't read the WHOLE chapter. So, let's review, just for context, ok?
15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Addressed to believers.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
This is the ONLY WAY to avoid sinning. The believer must walk by the Spirit. And that is a choice. A Christian is either walking by the Spirit or by his own flesh.
Paul charged believers in Corinth for being "fleshly", and acting like "mere men", which refers to unbelievers. He said they were ACTING like unbelievers. He didn't call them unbelievers.

As the "believers" believe and obey the exhortations, sin identifies who is not a "real believer".

I said:
"When a believer is in fellowship with the Lord, and filled with the Spirit, they WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH. Gal 5:16"

That's right; and because they are believers, they will remain in the Spirit till they are called Home.

What motivates your urge to make up stuff? Paul never said such a thing about his audience in any of his epistles that weren't living lives of obedience?

What did I "make up"?

Well, that's great. Of course they can. They are COMMANDED to. But you falsely think that's the only way believers can live. You have completely missed Paul's point.

It IS the only way believers can live.
It is the unbelievers who walk after the flesh instead of after the Spirit.

I said:
"Again, your conclusions about what I believe is totally wrong. Those who take the mark will end up in the lake of fire. Period. So, because of what Jesus said in John 10:28, no believer will take the mark."
This sin will disqualify their "belief"?
Why not every other type of sin?

This clearly indicates that you're not even reading my posts. I explained what will happen to disobedient believers. They will die from divine discipline BEFORE the mark of the beast will occur.[/QUOTE]
All I'm getting from your posts is that you think real believers still walk in the flesh and commit sin in spite of what God and His Son have supplied for us to kill the old man...and his fleshly nature.

And it is simply ludicrous to say that any sin will disqualify one's belief. You sure know how to make up a lot of stuff.

Perhaps a better way to say it is..."Sin manifests unbelief."

Wow, that's not very nice to say that the Bible feeds an illusion. I gave you very clear verses that SAY that those who believe POSSESS (HAVE) eternal life.
John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5;11,13.

So men can "lose faith" but not the gift given only to the faithful?

And John 10:28 SAYS that those given eternal life shall never perish.

Yep, the faithful.

A really odd question, imho. (What is a believer?)
A believer is one who has believed in the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their sin and gives the free gift of eternal life to those who have believed in Him.
An unbeliever is one who has never believed in the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their sin.

Can you really say they are believers if they don't believe anything else beyond that?
Are they believers if after saying they believe your message above, they decide to ignore or rebel against everything else Jesus and Father have provided for our survival and continuation in the light-God?

What you seem to misunderstand is that the death of the old man refers to no longer being a slave to one's human nature, now that there's a brand new, born again nature that cannot sin.

That is what I believe.
In fact Romans 6:16 says..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
If a supposed believer commits a sin, he is serving another god besides the Creator.
Idolatry.
No idolatrous "believers" are receiving eternal life.
No matter what they say.

Correct, but not for the right reasons.

Then quit saying nobody can say "I have no sin".
Quit using 1 John 1:8 to denigrate the work of the Lord.

 

[Phil W]

Please go ahead and prove your claim from Scripture.

If he hadn't the faith to end up in heaven he wouldn't have appeared to Jesus on the mount. (Matt 17)
He previously didn't have faith when he struck the rock at Maribah-Kadesh.
Had no faith, had faith later.

Haven't you read 1 Cor 10?

There is nothing about OT folks being reborn there.

If people weren't reborn in the OT, please explain Ezek 36:26 -
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from
you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ...

Ezec 36:1 starts out with..."Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:"
The rest of the chapter is a promise to Israel IF they will turn from iniquity and unto the Lord.
Sound familiar?
Fact is, it is Acts 2:38's presage.
"Repent of sin, and have your past sins washed away, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
No "rebirth" without obedience first.

I asked:
"Do you know what the promised land represents, since not heaven?"

And I replied that it was a "picture" of heaven...a presage or "type".

So then, Moses was given a picture of heaven that he couldn't enter.

Correct.
He couldn't enter the "type" because of unbelief.
Just as we will be denied entry because of unbelief manifested by sin.
You're just not making any sense.

Sure. That's pretty much what the Pharisees thought, too.

Since they were men in the flesh instead of men walking in the Spirit they taught what was true but didn't obey it themselves.

How many Pharisees do you think made it to heaven?

Impossible to say till after the final judgement.

Well, at least your views are quite clear. Be a good person, and go to heaven. But, be a bad person, and burn, baby, burn.

Pretty much what Paul says in Romans 6:16..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
I can't imagine any servants of sin going to heaven.
Can you?

Since you don't seem to know, that is nothing more than a works based salvation.

Since I am dead, and Christ liveth in me, it is actually Christ's works because of salvation.

So, I've got some verses for you to meditate on.
Rom 3-
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 4 all of it. It's about how to be justified.
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 9-
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.

So Paul asks "why not" in v.32, and answers it in the same verse:
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

So Jesus wasn't righteous?

Fact is, Paul's castigations, pulled from OT verses, is his way of showing the Jews that they too are in need of redemption, as the Law made no one perfect.

Your view of salvation is one of works. You are, like Paul said, stumbling over the stumbling stone. You don't understand anything about GRACE, or faith.

Like Paul, I also know that grace reigns through righteousness. (Rom 5:21)