Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

Can you have faith without belief?
Or belief without faith?
I think not!

To 'believe' is a verb, an action.

To have 'faith' is a noun. Or what is being believed. Does that help?

 

[FreeGrace2]

But the genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin. He is not under the power or penalty of sin. But there is still the presence of sin and temptation and it is part of the territory for mortal man.

Paul said it best, in Romans 6 -
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

It's clear that the believer still has the capacity to sin, by the command to "not let sin reign in your mortal body" in v.12.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Here, Paul is asking believers about the choice between to whom to offer ourselves. We can choose to obey sin, or to be obedient.

 

[Phil W]

But the genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin. He is not under the power or penalty of sin. But there is still the presence of sin and temptation and it is part of the territory for mortal man.

You seem to be unaware of rebirth.
All the old stuff; flesh, vile affections, and lusts, were killed and of no further impact or consequence.
A new creature reborn of God's incorruptible seed walks the earth now...to the glory of God.
You were right about "genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin".
Only false believers serve sin...but sadly, still call themselves Christians.

Sin for the believer is like bed bugs. It is an unwelcome irritant and causes a true believer to look forward earnestly to the time when he will be in glory and free from the constant irritation.

Ever read Romans 6:7?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."

 

[Phil W]

The Bible says nothing about this kind of belief for salvation.

How can one honestly believe a part of God's promise without believing all His promises?

Please explain.

How can a man believe one message from God and disbelieve another message from God?
Believe it all or perish!

Doesn't Jesus' promise in John 10:28 mean anything?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
I thought I would include verse 27 to show that "His sheep" follow Him.
Those who don't "follow Him" are not His sheep.
The promise is not to/for them.

 

[Phil W]

To 'believe' is a verb, an action.

To have 'faith' is a noun. Or what is being believed. Does that help?

Belief is a noun too.
Being faithful is an action too.
They are inseparable.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You seem to be unaware of rebirth.
All the old stuff; flesh, vile affections, and lusts, were killed and of no further impact or consequence.
A new creature reborn of God's incorruptible seed walks the earth now...to the glory of God.
You were right about "genuinely converted believer doesn't serve sin".
Only false believers serve sin...but sadly, still call themselves Christians.


Ever read Romans 6:7?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."

So you are not a sinner then? Well, explain your future death, because the Scripture says that the soul who sins shall die. So, if you are totally free from sin in your mortal body, you would be immortal already, right?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How can one honestly believe a part of God's promise without believing all His promises?

That's not the question. Each promise concerns specific things. His promise for salvation is a different promise than His promise for eternal rewards. The criteria are different for different promises.

How can a man believe one message from God and disbelieve another message from God?
Believe it all or perish!

I think this is your problem. The criteria for eternal rewards won't result in eternal life.

Likewise, the criteria for eternal life won't result in eternal rewards. They are totally different.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
I thought I would include verse 27 to show that "His sheep" follow Him.
Those who don't "follow Him" are not His sheep.
The promise is not to/for them.

I never said the promise was for unbelievers. I'm glad you included v.27. It's not a conditional statement about HOW to become one of Jesus' sheep. It is a description of Jesus' sheep, or rather, a policy statement about HOW His sheep are to live.

You keep missing the point of the OP and esp 1 Thess 5:10. Paul said that regardless of lifestyle, those who have believed in Christ for eternal life "will live together with Him".

Also, John 10:28 is clear: since every believer possesses eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13), that means that what Jesus said is a PROMISE that all who have believed shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Belief is a noun too.

Of course. My point is that 'believe' is a verb.

Being faithful is an action too.
They are inseparable.

Please expand on this.

 

[Phil W]

So you are not a sinner then?

Correct. My repentance from sin was/is real.

Well, explain your future death, because the Scripture says that the soul who sins shall die.

Paul wrote..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I was justly judged for my sins with the death I suffered with Christ at my baptism into His death, burial, and my resurrection with Him "to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
This vessel will eventually pass away, but "I" will live forever.
Don't equate the condition of the vessel with "life".

So, if you are totally free from sin in your mortal body, you would be immortal already, right?

It is written..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
I am immortal already.
Don't you have the hope of eternal life?

 

[Phil W]

That's not the question. Each promise concerns specific things. His promise for salvation is a different promise than His promise for eternal rewards. The criteria are different for different promises.

If you can't believe one promise, you can't believe anything God has said.

I think this is your problem. The criteria for eternal rewards won't result in eternal life.

If one can be eternal, why can't the other one be eternal?

Likewise, the criteria for eternal life won't result in eternal rewards. They are totally different.

"Criteria", eh?
Isn't the basis of this "local" conversation about differences between faith and belief?
To have faith you must believe.
To believe you must have faith.
They are inseparable.
What "criteria" are you referring to?

I never said the promise was for unbelievers. I'm glad you included v.27. It's not a conditional statement about HOW to become one of Jesus' sheep. It is a description of Jesus' sheep, or rather, a policy statement about HOW His sheep are to live.

Can we agree then that unbelievers won't be counted as sheep?
Can we agree that the unbelievers "CAN be plucked from God's hand"?
So the real question remains...are not sinners "unbelievers"?

You keep missing the point of the OP and esp 1 Thess 5:10. Paul said that regardless of lifestyle, those who have believed in Christ for eternal life "will live together with Him".

I can't understand how you got that message from Paul's writings.
Especially since he differentiates between "brethren" and "those walking in darkness", and "children of the light-day" and "sleepers" in prior verses.
Those "sleepers" referred to in verse 10 are those from 1 Thes 4:14-15...those already passed on.

Also, John 10:28 is clear: since every believer possesses eternal life (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13), that means that what Jesus said is a PROMISE that all who have believed shall never perish.

Which brings us right back to the fact that sinners don't actually "believe".
If they did believe, they would have believed 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
They would have believed Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
And John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The truth can free you from committing sin.
If folks aren't free...they don't know the truth that they can live without sin.
That or they just don't believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oscarr said: ↑
So you are not a sinner then?

Correct. My repentance from sin was/is real.

Scripture is what is real.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The "we" here refers to believers and since it's in the first person, it clearly includes even the beloved apostle John.

In fact, because we all DO continue to sin, John gave us 1 John 1:9 in order to be cleansed from our sins. This is what "fellowship" is all about. We MUST be cleansed in order to be in fellowship or have fellowship with the Lord.

When a spouse offends the other spouse, is there fellowship? No, of course not. Fellowship must be regained, through confession and repentance, for that to happen.

 

[Phil W]

Of course. My point is that 'believe' is a verb.

Being faithful is an action too.
They are inseparable.

Please expand on this.

How does one manifest faith?
With an action.
How does one manifest a belief?
With an action.
How does one manifest having faith?
With an action.
How does one manifest having belief?
With an action.

Belief...or faith, are dead without the actions commensurate to them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you can't believe one promise, you can't believe anything God has said.

I think you've missed the point entirely. It's not about believing a promise. It's about believing something but rebelling against other promises anyway.

If one can be eternal, why can't the other one be eternal?

It seems you are quite unfamiliar with difference between eternal life, and eternal rewards.

Eternal life is life in eternity, with God.

Eternal rewards are the rewards enjoyed in eternity, earned from obedience and faithfulness here on earth.

"Criteria", eh?
Isn't the basis of this "local" conversation about differences between faith and belief?
To have faith you must believe.
To believe you must have faith.
They are inseparable.
What "criteria" are you referring to?

The criteria for the different promises.

The "criteria" for salvation is to trust fully and alone in Christ for salvation.

The "criteria" for eternal rewards is faithfulness and obedience here on earth.

Can we agree then that unbelievers won't be counted as sheep?

Not as God's sheep, for sure. But Jesus was clear about the unbelieving Jews in John 10 when He told them, "you are not My sheep". He didn't say you aren't sheep.

Can we agree that the unbelievers "CAN be plucked from God's hand"?

No, I don't agree. Because unbelievers AREN'T in His hand. Only believers are.

So the real question remains...are not sinners "unbelievers"?

Some sinners are unbelievers, and all believers are STILL sinners.

I can't understand how you got that message from Paul's writings.
Especially since he differentiates between "brethren" and "those walking in darkness", and "children of the light-day" and "sleepers" in prior verses.

The problem is your inability to understand that believers CAN "walk in darkness".

Those "sleepers" referred to in verse 10 are those from 1 Thes 4:14-15...those already passed on.

Please go back to the OP and read it more carefully. I already addressed this. I proved from a number of other passages/verses that the Bible uses "alert" and "asleep" for lifestyles. iow, they are metaphoric, not literal.

Which brings us right back to the fact that sinners don't actually "believe".

This statement has no basis of truth from the Bible.

If they did believe, they would have believed 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Are you actually saying that all believers successfully avoid temptation, just because God provides an escape? That is horribly naive.

If that were true, we wouldn't have needed 1 John 1:9.

haven't you ever read through all of 1 and 2 Corinthians? The most carnal sinful church of Paul's time. Yet, he NEVER told them they weren't saved, or that they lost salvation.

They would have believed Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
And John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The truth can free you from committing sin.
If folks aren't free...they don't know the truth that they can live without sin.
That or they just don't believe.

Very naive. Simon the sorcerer was said to have "believed and was baptized", yet Peter told him he was "captive to sin".

Acts 8
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

This proves that Simon was saved.

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

It seems to me that you are not all that familiar with Scripture.

I've provided verses for all of my points. They actually SAY what I believe.

You haven't yet done the same.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Being faithful is an action too.
They are inseparable.


How does one manifest faith?
With an action.
How does one manifest a belief?
With an action.
How does one manifest having faith?
With an action.
How does one manifest having belief?
With an action.

Belief...or faith, are dead without the actions commensurate to them.

OK, explain what a "dead faith" means to you.

Thanks.

 

[Phil W]

Oscarr said: ↑
So you are not a sinner then?"
Scripture is what is real.
1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Please be aware that John is addressing two very different kinds of men and their very different kinds of walk.
One walks in the darkness, sin, and cannot say he has fellowship with God nor that he has no sin.
The other one walks in the light, God, and the blood of Christ Jesus has washed away ALL their sins
They can say they have fellowship with God and they can say they have no sin.

The "we" here refers to believers and since it's in the first person, it clearly includes even the beloved apostle John.

Were that true, then verse 7 and 9 are lies.
They say ALL our sins and unrighteousness can be washed away, cleansed.
Do you believe in baptism for the remission of past sins?
I hope so.
Can't a man walking out of the water say "I have no sin"?

In fact, because we all DO continue to sin, John gave us 1 John 1:9 in order to be cleansed from our sins. This is what "fellowship" is all about. We MUST be cleansed in order to be in fellowship or have fellowship with the Lord.

If you can't say you have been cleansed, how can you be cleansed?
The confession of past sins is necessary at the start of every man's walk in the light.
But we must remain in the light to garner the promises of God.

When a spouse offends the other spouse, is there fellowship? No, of course not. Fellowship must be regained, through confession and repentance, for that to happen.

So even though you CAN be without sin, you just can't say it?

 

[Phil W]

OK, explain what a "dead faith" means to you.

Thanks.

Faith without manifestation.
Sin is the antithesis of faith in God.

 

[Phil W]

I think you've missed the point entirely.
It's not about believing a promise.
It's about believing something but rebelling against other promises anyway.

That makes no sense. Unless what you call "promises" are actually commandments from God or from His disciples.
That you can rebel against.

It seems you are quite unfamiliar with difference between eternal life, and eternal rewards.

They are synonymous.
And again, you can'rt have one without the other.

Eternal life is life in eternity, with God.
Eternal rewards are the rewards enjoyed in eternity, earned from obedience and faithfulness here on earth.

Which is most important to you?

The criteria for the different promises.
The "criteria" for salvation is to trust fully and alone in Christ for salvation.

How does sinful rebellion manifest that "trust"?

The "criteria" for eternal rewards is faithfulness and obedience here on earth.

It seems delusional to think God will allow eternity with Him to those who continue to offend Him.
Again, they are inseparable.

Not as God's sheep, for sure. But Jesus was clear about the unbelieving Jews in John 10 when He told them, "you are not My sheep". He didn't say you aren't sheep.

Just not "HIS" sheep.
Whose are then, I wonder?

No, I don't agree. Because unbelievers AREN'T in His hand. Only believers are.

The sinners are the unbelievers.
Believers look for the escapes from temptation promised by God in 1 Cor 10:13.

Some sinners are unbelievers, and all believers are STILL sinners.

I rejoice in the fact you are wrong.
If they were believers they would have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

The problem is your inability to understand that believers CAN "walk in darkness".

You are so wrong.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Why don't they believe that?
Because they are UNbelievers!

Please go back to the OP and read it more carefully. I already addressed this. I proved from a number of other passages/verses that the Bible uses "alert" and "asleep" for lifestyles. iow, they are metaphoric, not literal.

But they are also used literally when dealing with the alive or the passed away when Christ returns.

This statement ("Which brings us right back to the fact that sinners don't actually "believe".") has no basis of truth from the Bible.

I hope these 3 verses can change your mind...
Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Are you actually saying that all believers successfully avoid temptation, just because God provides an escape? That is horribly naive.
If that were true, we wouldn't have needed 1 John 1:9.

It is the consequence of loving God above all else.
I can understand a man committing a sin because he loves something more than he loves God, but isn't that idolatry?
Isn't it written 1 Cor 6:9 that no idolaters will inherit the kingdom of God?
Confessing past sins is inline with John's pre-baptism norms.
After that, baptism for the remission of past sins will be administered.
Is it naive to think it possible some would so hate offending God that they would never do it again?
He did came to free us from sin, you know?

Haven't you ever read through all of 1 and 2 Corinthians? The most carnal sinful church of Paul's time. Yet, he NEVER told them they weren't saved, or that they lost salvation.

Does the bible you are using include 1 Cor 10:5-12?

Very naive. Simon the sorcerer was said to have "believed and was baptized", yet Peter told him he was "captive to sin".

Acts 8
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
This proves that Simon was saved.

That isn't what Peter says in verse 21....

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.
22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
It seems to me that you are not all that familiar with Scripture.

Is your bible also missing verse 21-23?

I've provided verses for all of my points. They actually SAY what I believe.
You haven't yet done the same.

I have been able to point out the things your bible must be missing that counter your POV, plus multiple other verses

Want to be saved?
Obey God.
Don't believe it?
Then you must be an unbeliever...though I hope you will move off from this horrible state you try to defend.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Correct. My repentance from sin was/is real.


Paul wrote..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
I was justly judged for my sins with the death I suffered with Christ at my baptism into His death, burial, and my resurrection with Him "to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
This vessel will eventually pass away, but "I" will live forever.
Don't equate the condition of the vessel with "life".


It is written..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
I am immortal already.
Don't you have the hope of eternal life?

Your physical body isn't immortal. It will die. The presence of sin is in our mortal bodies. This is what Paul said when he said that he wanted to follow God's moral law from his heart, but there was another law in his "members" (his physical body) that caused him to do things he didn't want to do and to block him from doing what he wanted in his heart. Temptation comes through our mortal body, its desires and emotions, and sometimes the demands of our mortal bodies are so strong that when we try to resist in our own strength we fail.

What you are saying is your position in faith and trust in Christ, and you are entirely correct, because you have a new heart and a living spirit, and the faith you have that keeps you in good standing with Christ is what you have received from Him. I have no argument with that. You have the righteousness of Christ which has been bestowed to you as a free gift from God in response to your faith in Christ. This means that you are released from the power and penalty of sin.

But the presence of sin still resides in your mortal body. If that presence was removed, your body would have been transformed into a glorified, sinless body, like the glorified body of Jesus after His resurrection. Then you would be immortal and not have to die physically. But the truth is that your mortal body still has the presence of sin in it, and because of that, it has to die, and be transformed when the trumpet of the angel is sounded and your body is raised to meet the Lord in the air.

Until that time comes, you will always have struggles with your sinful body, what Paul calls "the flesh", which wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against the flesh. This is why Paul said that we need always to keep our bodies under subjection so that our faith will remain strong in the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please be aware that John is addressing two very different kinds of men and their very different kinds of walk.
One walks in the darkness, sin, and cannot say he has fellowship with God nor that he has no sin.
The other one walks in the light, God, and the blood of Christ Jesus has washed away ALL their sins
They can say they have fellowship with God and they can say they have no sin.

Well, anyone can say anything they want, but that doesn't make it true.

1 John 1:8 applies to everyone. Not just some certain group. And you've not shown so.

I hope so.
Can't a man walking out of the water say "I have no sin"?

I don't know what this means or refers to.

If you can't say you have been cleansed, how can you be cleansed?

I fail to understand your point here. Sin makes us "dirty", and we need to be cleansed of that "dirt". That's WHY we have 1 John 1:9.

What you you think 1 John 1:9 is about and for?

The confession of past sins is necessary at the start of every man's walk in the light.
But we must remain in the light to garner the promises of God.

No, confession is for EVERY TIME we sin.

Consider when Jesus went around washing the feet of His disciples in John 13. He got to Peter who refused Him to wash his feet. Why? Washing feet was relegated to the very lowest slave. Why? Because people walked the same paths as the domestic animals, and even a short walk would result in getting feces on one's feet. So foot washing in Jesus' day was functional, not a ritual, as it is today in some circles.

Consider if you walked in dog feces on your way to your friend's house, and you tracked in that feces into his house, all the while ignoring the stench and mess you've made.

Do you really think you're going to have fellowship with your friend? No, you have offended your friend by your extremely RUDE behavior. The only way to make it right is by confessing your huge blunder to your friend, and then cleaning up the mess (repentance). This is how fellowship works with the Lord. When we sin, it's like tracking animal feces into the Lord's presence. We need to confess it and repent of it. And HE cleanses US. We don't clean up ourselves.

So even though you CAN be without sin, you just can't say it?

Quite the contrary. Of course I can say that I can be without sin. But that's ONLY WHEN I'm in fellowship, cleansed from my on-going sins.

To add to that, when I'm filled with the Holy Spirit, I will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh, per Gal 5:16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"OK, explain what a "dead faith" means to you.
Thanks."

Faith without manifestation.
Sin is the antithesis of faith in God.

OK. By "w/o manifestation" I take it you mean it as James did in that a faith without works is a faith that is not manifested. Am I right?