Salvation Cannot be Lost

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I think you've missed the point entirely.
It's not about believing a promise.
It's about believing something but rebelling against other promises anyway"

That makes no sense. Unless what you call "promises" are actually commandments from God or from His disciples.
That you can rebel against.

I think we're on totally different wave lengths, and talking over each other on promises.

I said:
"It seems you are quite unfamiliar with difference between eternal life, and eternal rewards."

They are synonymous.
And again, you can'rt have one without the other.

Then you believe that salvation is EARNED. Which it is definitely NOT. But that's why you think salvation can be lost.

Something earned is something that can be unearned. There is NO grace in that idea.

Do you have any idea what grace is and means?

I said:
"Eternal life is life in eternity, with God.
Eternal rewards are the rewards enjoyed in eternity, earned from obedience and faithfulness here on earth."

Which is most important to you?

Odd question. Which shows that you don't understand the difference.

Unless one is saved (born again, regenerated, possesses eternal life), eternal rewards isn't even an option.

So the most important is eternal life. Without which, one will spend eternity in the "second death", or the lake of fire.

But for every believer, who possess eternal life, eternal rewards SHOULD BE the most important issue in their life.

How does sinful rebellion manifest that "trust"?

It doesn't.

It seems delusional to think God will allow eternity with Him to those who continue to offend Him.

That view is only because you do not understand God's grace at all.

Just not "HIS" sheep.
Whose are then, I wonder?

Sheep without a shepherd, obviously. Why are you questioning what Jesus said about the unbelieving Jews not being His sheep?

The sinners are the unbelievers.

Sure. All of mankind are sinners. That's why Christ came and died for all the sins of the human race. Personally.

Believers look for the escapes from temptation promised by God in 1 Cor 10:13.

Some do, some don't. But ALL should.

I said:
"Some sinners are unbelievers, and all believers are STILL sinners."

I rejoice in the fact you are wrong.

Your "rejoicing" is in error. I've proven that with 1 John 1:8.

And you probably haven't read what Paul wrote:
1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

What I hope you notice is the tense of the words in red: present tense. Paul is NOT describing some pre-salvation condition here. He is speaking in the present.

Unlike yourself, I do not rejoice in your errors and misunderstanding of Scripture.

If they were believers they would have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

v.24 - Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So, what the context for this verse?
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

It appears to me that you don't understand what the filling of the Holy Spirit is and what it's for.

I said:
"The problem is your inability to understand that believers CAN "walk in darkness"."

You are so wrong.

I would expect this from one who thinks they don't sin.

It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

Did you conveniently ignore or forget that Peter is giving them a command, in order to cease from sin? "Arm yourselves with the same mind". That's a command.

When that command is obeyed, the believer will cease from sin.

Don't you know that when in fellowship and filled with the Spirit the believer won't sin?

But the choice to sin is always before the believer. Just as Paul very clearly explained in Romans 6. Just notice all the choices he notes.

Why don't they believe that?
Because they are UNbelievers!

Interesting. You don't believe in eternal security even though Jesus stated it clearly enough in John 10:28. Does this make you an unbeliever too?

If you're going to be consistent with your views, you need to face this.

I said:
"Please go back to the OP and read it more carefully. I already addressed this. I proved from a number of other passages/verses that the Bible uses "alert" and "asleep" for lifestyles. iow, they are metaphoric, not literal."

But they are also used literally when dealing with the alive or the passed away when Christ returns.

It's becoming quite clear to me that you aren't really interested in a discussion. You're ignoring all the verses in the OP that PROVE that being alert vs asleep are metaphors for lifestyle.

Reminds me of an ostrich that sticks it's head in the sand.

[QUOTE[I hope these 3 verses can change your mind...
Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:[/QUOTE]
OK, let's take Heb 3:19. Do you believe Moses was saved and went to heaven when he died?

Does the bible you are using include 1 Cor 10:5-12?

Sure does.

That isn't what Peter says in verse 21....

Please tell me what he did say then.

Is your bible also missing verse 21-23?

Nope.

I have been able to point out the things your bible must be missing that counter your POV, plus multiple other verses

Nonsense.

Want to be saved?
Obey God.

You are quite confused about what the Bible says about the subject.

Don't believe it?

I certainly don't believe your views, because they don't align with Scripture.

Have you read the account of Paul and a jailer in Acts 16. The jailer asked Paul directly, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And Paul's answer was just as direct: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Do you believe Paul's answer? Or are you an unbeliever?

Then you must be an unbeliever...though I hope you will move off from this horrible state you try to defend.

I am an unbeliever of all you've posted.

The OP proves that 1 Thess 5:10 is a reference to the believer's lifestyle, and is exactly parallel to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, none of which you apparently believe, given all you've posted.

The point of John 10:28 is that all believers shall never perish. You've not proven otherwise.

 

[Phil W]

Your physical body isn't immortal. It will die.

Yes, it will...but on the other hand, it isn't "mine" anymore.

The presence of sin is in our mortal bodies.

If it isn't "my" body anymore, but Christ's, how can it have sin in it.
Your thesis only works for those who have not yet crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
They are not "Christ's".

This is what Paul said when he said that he wanted to follow God's moral law from his heart, but there was another law in his "members" (his physical body) that caused him to do things he didn't want to do and to block him from doing what he wanted in his heart.

You must have missed his "cure" for that law.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
Paul was writing about his prior life under the Mosaic Law, as a Pharisee/Jew.
Romans 7 is a narrative of his past circumstances of failure and remorse
A lamentation or a former time.

Temptation comes through our mortal body, its desires and emotions, and sometimes the demands of our mortal bodies are so strong that when we try to resist in our own strength we fail.

This sounds like Paul from Romans 7...before he was freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
BTW..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No "flesh", no lusts, no vile affections, equals no sin.

What you are saying is your position in faith and trust in Christ, and you are entirely correct, because you have a new heart and a living spirit, and the faith you have that keeps you in good standing with Christ is what you have received from Him. I have no argument with that. You have the righteousness of Christ which has been bestowed to you as a free gift from God in response to your faith in Christ. This means that you are released from the power and penalty of sin.

So why do you argue against it, if you understand it so well?

But the presence of sin still resides in your mortal body. If that presence was removed, your body would have been transformed into a glorified, sinless body, like the glorified body of Jesus after His resurrection.

Got a scripture stating that I can't be free from sin till after I am raised at Christ's return and I get the next vessel?
Scripture actually stand against the idea in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The "death" occurs in the prior 4 verses.

Then you would be immortal and not have to die physically. But the truth is that your mortal body still has the presence of sin in it, and because of that, it has to die, and be transformed when the trumpet of the angel is sounded and your body is raised to meet the Lord in the air.

Again you will need to provide the scriptures which led you to that conclusion.
Your "platform" is that because "I" am in a physical body I must still have sin in/on me.
Wasn't Jesus in a physical body?
He had no sin in/on Him.

Until that time comes, you will always have struggles with your sinful body, what Paul calls "the flesh", which wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against the flesh. This is why Paul said that we need always to keep our bodies under subjection so that our faith will remain strong in the Lord.

Why not just heed the exhortation and remain free from sin?
My sinful body was destroyed on the cross with Jesus Christ when it was "immersed" into His death. (Rom 6:3-6)
I am a new creature NOW. (2 Cor 5:17)

 

[Phil W]

Well, anyone can say anything they want, but that doesn't make it true.

Are you asserting that men can be in the darkness. sin, and the light, God, at the same time?
1 John 1:5 refutes that notion.

1 John 1:8 applies to everyone. Not just some certain group. And you've not shown so.

Were it true, verse 7 and 9 would be lies.

I don't know what this means or refers to.

Can't a man who has just been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ say he has no sin while walking out of the water?

I fail to understand your point here. Sin makes us "dirty", and we need to be cleansed of that "dirt". That's WHY we have 1 John 1:9.

If that dirt can be washed away by the blood of Christ, why can't we say "I have no dirt"?

What you you think 1 John 1:9 is about and for?

It is a preliminary step to baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins: to our walk in the light/God wherein is no sin.

No, confession is for EVERY TIME we sin.

If you remain in the light/God, you won't commit anymore sin.

Consider when Jesus went around washing the feet of His disciples in John 13. He got to Peter who refused Him to wash his feet. Why? Washing feet was relegated to the very lowest slave. Why? Because people walked the same paths as the domestic animals, and even a short walk would result in getting feces on one's feet. So foot washing in Jesus' day was functional, not a ritual, as it is today in some circles.

Could they or could they not say "My feet are clean" after the washing?
Why can't we say we have no sin after it has been washed away by the blood of Christ?

Consider if you walked in dog feces on your way to your friend's house, and you tracked in that feces into his house, all the while ignoring the stench and mess you've made.
Do you really think you're going to have fellowship with your friend? No, you have offended your friend by your extremely RUDE behavior. The only way to make it right is by confessing your huge blunder to your friend, and then cleaning up the mess (repentance). This is how fellowship works with the Lord. When we sin, it's like tracking animal feces into the Lord's presence. We need to confess it and repent of it. And HE cleanses US. We don't clean up ourselves.

If He cleanses us, why can't we say we are clean?

Quite the contrary. Of course I can say that I can be without sin. But that's ONLY WHEN I'm in fellowship, cleansed from my on-going sins.

That just nullified your whole POV that we can not say we have no sin.
Why not have a real repentance from sin that is NOT a lie to God.

To add to that, when I'm filled with the Holy Spirit, I will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh, per Gal 5:16.

I wonder if I can get a patent on the term..."Come and Go Christianity"?
Why not just turn from sin permanently?
Jesus died and was resurrected so we can be free from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"I think you've missed the point entirely.
It's not about believing a promise.
It's about believing something but rebelling against other promises anyway"

I think we're on totally different wave lengths, and talking over each other on promises.

I said:
"It seems you are quite unfamiliar with difference between eternal life, and eternal rewards."

Then you believe that salvation is EARNED. Which it is definitely NOT. But that's why you think salvation can be lost.

Something earned is something that can be unearned. There is NO grace in that idea.

Do you have any idea what grace is and means?

I said:
"Eternal life is life in eternity, with God.
Eternal rewards are the rewards enjoyed in eternity, earned from obedience and faithfulness here on earth."

Odd question. Which shows that you don't understand the difference.

Unless one is saved (born again, regenerated, possesses eternal life), eternal rewards isn't even an option.

So the most important is eternal life. Without which, one will spend eternity in the "second death", or the lake of fire.

But for every believer, who possess eternal life, eternal rewards SHOULD BE the most important issue in their life.


It doesn't.


That view is only because you do not understand God's grace at all.


Sheep without a shepherd, obviously. Why are you questioning what Jesus said about the unbelieving Jews not being His sheep?


Sure. All of mankind are sinners. That's why Christ came and died for all the sins of the human race. Personally.


Some do, some don't. But ALL should.

I said:
"Some sinners are unbelievers, and all believers are STILL sinners."

Your "rejoicing" is in error. I've proven that with 1 John 1:8.

And you probably haven't read what Paul wrote:
1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

What I hope you notice is the tense of the words in red: present tense. Paul is NOT describing some pre-salvation condition here. He is speaking in the present.

Unlike yourself, I do not rejoice in your errors and misunderstanding of Scripture.


v.24 - Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So, what the context for this verse?
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

It appears to me that you don't understand what the filling of the Holy Spirit is and what it's for.

I said:
"The problem is your inability to understand that believers CAN "walk in darkness"."

I would expect this from one who thinks they don't sin.


Did you conveniently ignore or forget that Peter is giving them a command, in order to cease from sin? "Arm yourselves with the same mind". That's a command.

When that command is obeyed, the believer will cease from sin.

Don't you know that when in fellowship and filled with the Spirit the believer won't sin?

But the choice to sin is always before the believer. Just as Paul very clearly explained in Romans 6. Just notice all the choices he notes.


Interesting. You don't believe in eternal security even though Jesus stated it clearly enough in John 10:28. Does this make you an unbeliever too?

If you're going to be consistent with your views, you need to face this.

I said:
"Please go back to the OP and read it more carefully. I already addressed this. I proved from a number of other passages/verses that the Bible uses "alert" and "asleep" for lifestyles. iow, they are metaphoric, not literal."

It's becoming quite clear to me that you aren't really interested in a discussion. You're ignoring all the verses in the OP that PROVE that being alert vs asleep are metaphors for lifestyle.

Reminds me of an ostrich that sticks it's head in the sI hope these 3 verses can change your mind...
Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
OK, let's take Heb 3:19. Do you believe Moses was saved and went to heaven when he died?


Sure does.


Please tell me what he did say then.


Nope.


Nonsense.


You are quite confused about what the Bible says about the subject.


I certainly don't believe your views, because they don't align with Scripture.

Have you read the account of Paul and a jailer in Acts 16. The jailer asked Paul directly, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And Paul's answer was just as direct: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Do you believe Paul's answer? Or are you an unbeliever?


I am an unbeliever of all you've posted.

The OP proves that 1 Thess 5:10 is a reference to the believer's lifestyle, and is exactly parallel to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, none of which you apparently believe, given all you've posted.

The point of John 10:28 is that all believers shall never perish. You've not proven otherwise.

Believers' life styles don't include offending God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, it will...but on the other hand, it isn't "mine" anymore.


If it isn't "my" body anymore, but Christ's, how can it have sin in it.
Your thesis only works for those who have not yet crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
They are not "Christ's".


You must have missed his "cure" for that law.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
Paul was writing about his prior life under the Mosaic Law, as a Pharisee/Jew.
Romans 7 is a narrative of his past circumstances of failure and remorse
A lamentation or a former time.


This sounds like Paul from Romans 7...before he was freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
BTW..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No "flesh", no lusts, no vile affections, equals no sin.


So why do you argue against it, if you understand it so well?


Got a scripture stating that I can't be free from sin till after I am raised at Christ's return and I get the next vessel?
Scripture actually stand against the idea in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The "death" occurs in the prior 4 verses.


Again you will need to provide the scriptures which led you to that conclusion.
Your "platform" is that because "I" am in a physical body I must still have sin in/on me.
Wasn't Jesus in a physical body?
He had no sin in/on Him.


Why not just heed the exhortation and remain free from sin?
My sinful body was destroyed on the cross with Jesus Christ when it was "immersed" into His death. (Rom 6:3-6)
I am a new creature NOW. (2 Cor 5:17)

Well, it seems that you are convinced about what you believe about it, and so according to your faith be it unto you! I respect that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, it will...but on the other hand, it isn't "mine" anymore.

If it isn't "my" body anymore, but Christ's, how can it have sin in it.
Your thesis only works for those who have not yet crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
They are not "Christ's".

Gal 5:24 doesn't support your claim that Jesus owns your physical body. Where do you get that idea?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you asserting that men can be in the darkness. sin, and the light, God, at the same time?

Of course not. Believers are either In the light, or in darkness. Obviously no one can be in both at the same time.

Aren't you familiar with Paul's commands?
Be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
Walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
Stop grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
Stop quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:18

Test time:
Is a believer who is filled with and walking by means of the Spirit in the light or in darkness?

Likewise, is a believer who is grieving and quenching the Spirit in the light or in darkness?

1 John 1:5 refutes that notion.

Of course it does

I said:
"1 John 1:8 applies to everyone. Not just some certain group. And you've not shown so."

Were it true, verse 7 and 9 would be lies.

Would you please explain yourself? How would v.7 and 9 be a lie if v.8 applies to everyone?

You make a lot of claims, but give no biblical support for them.

Can't a man who has just been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ say he has no sin while walking out of the water?

Water baptism isn't the issue. A person who has just placed their faith in Christ is forgiven, cleansed and reborn. At that moment they have no sin to confess. But just give him/her some time. It will happen.

You never addressed what Paul said in 1 Tim 1:15. Do you have a coherent answer or not?

If that dirt can be washed away by the blood of Christ, why can't we say "I have no dirt"?

OK, you completely missed the point in John 13.

When Jesus approached Peter to wash his feet, Peter said no. Then Jesus told him that he could have "no part" with Him if He didn't wash his feet. I explained thoroughly the issue in washing feet in Jesus' day. But go ahead and ignore all that.

Then Peter reacted by saying, "well then, not just my feet, but my hands and head."

iow, Peter was asking for a whole bath. So what did Jesus say to that?

10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

Jesus was speaking metaphorically. To be "clean" means to be SAVED. And He was telling Peter that he was already saved and didn't need to be saved all over again.

But he still needed to "have a part" with Jesus, which refers to being IN fellowship with the Lord. This is an on-going need for every believer. Just as washing the feet was on on-going need for everyone in Palestine. As I thoroughly explained previously.

I said:
"What you you think 1 John 1:9 is about and for?"

It is a preliminary step to baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins: to our walk in the light/God wherein is no sin.

Where in the world did you get that idea from? Certainly not the Bible.

Where does the Bible talk about any "preliminary step to baptism in Jesus' name"?

If you remain in the light/God, you won't commit anymore sin.

Exactly!! That's what fellowship is all about. But the Bible is clear that believers can and do walk in the darkness, and not in the light. Which is WHY we are commanded to walking in the light.

Could they or could they not say "My feet are clean" after the washing?

Of course. But believers STILL walk in the world, just as Jews in Palestine STILL walked on paths and would get their feet feces dirty. And needed to be washed.

Why can't we say we have no sin after it has been washed away by the blood of Christ?

Your question reveals a complete lack of understanding of the need for confession of on-going sin. But that would be typical of one who believes a believer will reach sinlessness in this life. There is no biblical support for that. In fact, just the opposite, as I've been showing you.

If He cleanses us, why can't we say we are clean?

For the same reason Jews in Palestine had to repeatedly clean their feet after walking on the same paths as domestic animals. But I'm getting tired of repeating myself and there is no progress on your part to understand any of this.

I said:
"Quite the contrary. Of course I can say that I can be without sin. But that's ONLY WHEN I'm in fellowship, cleansed from my on-going sins."

That just nullified your whole POV that we can not say we have no sin.
Why not have a real repentance from sin that is NOT a lie to God.

You just demonstrated again the failure to understand anything about what I've been explaining clearly and thoroughly.

It is the Holy Spirit who guides us into the truth (John 16:13). However, since none of what I've been explaining is being understood, I have to ask; why aren't you being taught by the Spirit?

I wonder if I can get a patent on the term..."Come and Go Christianity"?

Why don't you try?

Why not just turn from sin permanently?

The Bible tells us that will occur WHEN we receive our resurrection bodies.

Jesus died and was resurrected so we can be free from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)

Yes, we CAN be free from committing sin. But why aren't you aware of all the examples in the Bible of Believers who continue to commit sin?

And where does the Bible teach that believers can or have completely ceased from sin?

The problem is that you have no support from Scripture for your theories. And you seem unwilling to accept the Scriptural support I've patiently given to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believers' life styles don't include offending God.

Really?

Why aren't you aware of what the Bible says about this?

Paul commanded believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit in Eph 4:30 and to STOP quenching the Spirit in 1 Thess 5:18.

Why don't you know this? Does your pastor know any of this?

 

[fhansen]

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts the lifestyle of believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkenness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Now, some will argue that the word “sleep” in 1 Thess 5 refers to physical death, just as Paul used it in the previous chapter:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that in the context of 1 Thess 4, “falling asleep” refers to physical death. But, in the next chapter, the context isn’t about who is physically alive vs who is physically dead, as claimed by Arminians, but rather, the context is about the believer’s lifestyle, as the comparisons clearly show.

However, here are passages that also use the word “sleep” as a metaphor for lifestyle:

Rom 13:11:14

11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

So, how would an OSNAS type explain Paul’s command to ‘wake up from your slumber”, if sleeping is literal? Impossible.

Eph 5:12-16

12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. 14 This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” 15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

It’s clear that waking up is in reference to one’s lifestyle; “how you live” from v.15.

Rev 3:1-3

1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Again, the context is clear: being “dead” or “alive” is in the context of lifestyle.

Rev 16:15

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Again, "staying awake” is in reference to lifestyle (going naked and be exposed). By “staying awake”, we will “not go naked and be shamefully exposed”.

So, 1 Thess 5:9-10 is clear.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

God has destined the believer for salvation. Therefore, “whether we are awake or sleep”, the promise is CLEAR: “we WILL LIVE together with Him”.

This isn’t to defend a sinful lifestyle in any way. This is, rather, to defend the biblical teaching that one’s behavior/lifestyle doesn’t determine one’s eternal destiny.

One’s eternal destiny is sealed by whether or not one has put their trust in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the gift of eternal life.

On that basis alone, the believer shall NEVER perish.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (believers) shall NEVER PERISH.

It's really pretty simple. If we sin, if we choose sin over the love that opposes it, even after tasting of and knowing that love, then in actuality we've turned back away from God; we can lose/forfeit the justified state that He'd given us-and therefore our salvation. This is why it's said that salvation is worked out, because we don't know with perfect certainty whether or not we've achieved it until the just Judge gives us His determination at the end of the day. Either way we cannot live a life of sin and then think we can still appeal to our faith or some sort of one-time born again event that we believe happened to us in the past.

It's up to us whether or not we continue to live in the Spirit, to remain faithful, to follow and obey His will. Our fruit testifies to where our heart really is.

 

[Phil W]

Gal 5:24 doesn't support your claim that Jesus owns your physical body. Where do you get that idea?

I get that idea from Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
And 1 Cor 6:19-20..."What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Gal 5:24 doesn't support your claim that Jesus owns your physical body. Where do you get that idea?"

I get that idea from Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
And 1 Cor 6:19-20..."What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

I still don't know where you got your idea, since Gal 2:20 says nothing about Jesus owning your physical body.

As regarding 1 Cor 6:19,20, Jesus didn't die for our physical bodies. They will perish and be resurrected. He died for our souls, so that we can live with God forever.

 

[Phil W]

Of course not. Believers are either In the light, or in darkness. Obviously no one can be in both at the same time.

If they truly were believers they would never be in darkness.

Aren't you familiar with Paul's commands?
Be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
Walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
Stop grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
Stop quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:18

I wonder why so many discount or ignore these commands?
It is because they love darkness instead of light.

Test time:
Is a believer who is filled with and walking by means of the Spirit in the light or in darkness?

He is in the light, God.

Likewise, is a believer who is grieving and quenching the Spirit in the light or in darkness?

Those in darkness, sin, are not believers.
If they did believe, they would cower at the words of God and obey unto death the admonitions and exhortations of Jesus and His apostles and prophets.

Of course it does
I said:
"1 John 1:8 applies to everyone. Not just some certain group. And you've not shown so."

In light of the preceding quiz, no man can walk in both darkness and light...as one is sin and the other is God...wherein is no sin.
So how can verses aimed at those walking in darkness (6,8,10) also apply to those walking in light (5,7,9)?
John is addressing two different 'conditions' of which men can only partake of one or the other, but not both.

Would you please explain yourself? How would v.7 and 9 be a lie if v.8 applies to everyone?

That is the conundrum you face, not me.
They don't apply to everyone.
If no man can say he has no sin, then we cannot have all our sin washed away by the blood of Christ or have all our unrighteousness cleansed.
I John 1 is alternating verses addressing two different worlds...like Paul uses in Romans 8. (Spirit, flesh, Spirit, flesh, Spirit, flesh.)

Water baptism isn't the issue. A person who has just placed their faith in Christ is forgiven, cleansed and reborn.

Scripture, please.

At that moment they have no sin to confess. But just give him/her some time. It will happen.

Why not just obey Peter's Acts 2:38 admonition, and it will happen instantly?
The admonition?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You never addressed what Paul said in 1 Tim 1:15. Do you have a coherent answer or not?

Though I don't recall you trying to impugn Paul's faith, I will address it here...
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
The defenders of sin often use this verse to infer Paul is still a servant of sin.
But it clearly says Paul was saved (from sin), and was once the worst of the lot.
This is made especially clear when we read the 17th verse...
"Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:"
Sinners don't have 'good consciences'.
Paul wouldn't exhort Timothy to do something he himself wouldn't or couldn't.

OK, you completely missed the point in John 13.

Tough.
It is because I use scripture to exhort to holiness and perfect obedience to the One who will destroy the unrighteous while you use them to accommodate sin.

I said:
"What you you think 1 John 1:9 is about and for?"
Where in the world did you get that idea from? Certainly not the Bible.
Where does the Bible talk about any "preliminary step to baptism in Jesus' name"?

Matt. 3:6 and Mark 1:5 both mention baptism (for the remission of past sins) after confessing sins.
As baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is still the only means of washing away past sins by the blood of Christ, it stands to reason confession should precede it.

Exactly!! That's what fellowship is all about. But the Bible is clear that believers can and do walk in the darkness, and not in the light. Which is WHY we are commanded to walking in the light.

Those who are obedient to and fear God will heed the exhortations and those that love sin more than they love God won't.
Which is a "believer"?

Your question reveals a complete lack of understanding of the need for confession of on-going sin. But that would be typical of one who believes a believer will reach sinlessness in this life. There is no biblical support for that. In fact, just the opposite, as I've been showing you.

How about this 'support'?
... and perhaps you could explain what these scriptures dealing with perfection mean to you?


“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)
“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.” (John 8:32-34)

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:6)

For the same reason Jews in Palestine had to repeatedly clean their feet after walking on the same paths as domestic animals. But I'm getting tired of repeating myself and there is no progress on your part to understand any of this.

You are living in the OT.
Sin, atone, sin, atone, sin, atone.
Jesus came to free us from sin.
That is exactly what He did...to the glory of God.

I said:
"Quite the contrary. Of course I can say that I can be without sin. But that's ONLY WHEN I'm in fellowship, cleansed from my on-going sins."
You just demonstrated again the failure to understand anything about what I've been explaining clearly and thoroughly.
It is the Holy Spirit who guides us into the truth (John 16:13). However, since none of what I've been explaining is being understood, I have to ask; why aren't you being taught by the Spirit?
hy don't you try?
The Bible tells us that will occur WHEN we receive our resurrection bodies.
Yes, we CAN be free from committing sin. But why aren't you aware of all the examples in the Bible of Believers who continue to commit sin?
And where does the Bible teach that believers can or have completely ceased from sin?
The problem is that you have no support from Scripture for your theories. And you seem unwilling to accept the Scriptural support I've patiently given to you.

All your scriptural support is ill used trying to convince me to go back into sin.
God will destroy those tarnishing His name while calling themselves Christians.

 

[Phil W]

Really?

Why aren't you aware of what the Bible says about this?

Paul commanded believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit in Eph 4:30 and to STOP quenching the Spirit in 1 Thess 5:18.

Why don't you know this? Does your pastor know any of this?

Sin manifests unbelief.
The escaping Jews from Egypt were our warning.
They didn't get barred from the promised land because of sin, but because of unbelief. (Heb 3:12,19, 4:6,11)
How was that unbelief demonstrated?
By disobedience to the one they claimed they loved.

Same as today.

 

[Phil W]

I asked:
"Gal 5:24 doesn't support your claim that Jesus owns your physical body. Where do you get that idea?"
I still don't know where you got your idea, since Gal 2:20 says nothing about Jesus owning your physical body.

If Christ living in you doesn't imply His reign, what is He then?

As regarding 1 Cor 6:19,20, Jesus didn't die for our physical bodies. They will perish and be resurrected. He died for our souls, so that we can live with God forever.

Why are you putting off the start of 'forever' by spending so much time defending sin now?
"Today is the day of salvation"...

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they truly were believers they would never be in darkness.

There is much naivety in your comment. And Paul's commands regarding the Holy Spirit refute your comment.

Those in darkness, sin, are not believers.

A believer who is out of fellowship, and grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit IS in darkness.

If they did believe, they would cower at the words of God and obey unto death the admonitions and exhortations of Jesus and His apostles and prophets.

I recommend reading the entire NT, many times. You'll see quite a different picture.

In light of the preceding quiz, no man can walk in both darkness and light

Correct. And that's my point. Believers can't be both in fellowship and out of fellowship at the same time. It's either one or the other. And when believers are out of fellowship, they are in darkness.

So how can verses aimed at those walking in darkness (6,8,10) also apply to those walking in light (5,7,9)?
John is addressing two different 'conditions' of which men can only partake of one or the other, but not both.

The issue is that believers have a choice.

That is the conundrum you face, not me.

I don't face any conundrums.

They don't apply to everyone.

That would be your opinion.

If no man can say he has no sin, then we cannot have all our sin washed away by the blood of Christ or have all our unrighteousness cleansed.

This shows that you fail to understand the difference between Christ paying for all our sins, past, present and future on the cross (way before we ever even sinned), and the on-going sin that occurs in our daily lives.

It's sad that my explanation of the need for foot washing being a parallel to confession of sin went over your head.

I John 1 is alternating verses addressing two different worlds...like Paul uses in Romans 8. (Spirit, flesh, Spirit, flesh, Spirit, flesh.)

I believe your views are from a different world.

I said:
"Water baptism isn't the issue. A person who has just placed their faith in Christ is forgiven, cleansed and reborn."

Scripture, please.

Do you really not know that saving faith results in forgiveness and a new birth?

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

That addresses the forgiveness and cleansing.

Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Why not just obey Peter's Acts 2:38 admonition, and it will happen instantly?
The admonition?

Peter was addressing a unique situation, which cannot occur today. That crowd had actually and literally participated in Christ's crucifixion. What does apply today is what Paul told the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

They were already saved, based on their response in the previous verses.

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

It's clear that v.37 shows that they believed what Peter said about Jesus; that He is the Christ. That's why they were "cut to the heart". Their question wasn't about how to be saved, but "now what do we do?"

Though I don't recall you trying to impugn Paul's faith, I will address it here...
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
The defenders of sin often use this verse to infer Paul is still a servant of sin.
But it clearly says Paul was saved (from sin), and was once the worst of the lot.

You're reading very wrong. It doesn't say "was once the worst...".

He clearly said "of whom I AM chief". Got it. Please stop twisting Scripture.

I said:
"OK, you completely missed the point in John 13."

Tough.

Yes, it's tough for you.

It is because I use scripture to exhort to holiness and perfect obedience to the One who will destroy the unrighteous while you use them to accommodate sin.

I've accomodated nothing. Esp sin. I use Scripture to reveal the TRUTH, which you seem to be rejecting outright.

Believers still sin. That's what the Bible says and shows by example. But you want to deny that FACT.

Which is a "believer"?

Any person who has placed their full trust in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their own sins and believes that Jesus will give them eternal life as a free gift.

What's your definition?

How about this 'support'?
... and perhaps you could explain what these scriptures dealing with perfection mean to you?

Sure. The Greek word means "to perfect, to complete". Think about it for a sec. It's about reaching spiritual maturity. Not sinless perfection.

You are living in the OT.

You are quite wrong. I've been reading through the NT monthly for well over a decade.

Sin, atone, sin, atone, sin, atone.

Why would you think that I promote self atonement? What a crock.

Jesus atoned for everyone's sin on the cross. 1 John 2:2

Jesus came to free us from sin.

Do you understand the 3 tenses of salvation? It appears that you do not.

Past tense salvation: we were saved from the penalty of sin. Justification. That's how the believer is "freed from sin".

Present tense salvation: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification. It seems you either confuse or conflate justification with sanctification and you can't tell the difference.

Future tense salvation: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification. This is the state of sinless perfection.

But go ahead and address these 3 tenses of salvation and prove me wrong from Scripture.

All your scriptural support is ill used trying to convince me to go back into sin.

If you are serious and think that I've been using Scripture to try to convince you to go back into sin, I'm afraid you have a very serious defect in understanding my very clear English words. How sad.

God will destroy those tarnishing His name while calling themselves Christians.

I'll tell you who really does tarnish God's Name: those who reject the truth of His Word.

As you have been doing. Your opinions regarding Christianity aren't even close to biblical Christianity. As I've shown from Scripture. All of which you've ignored.

Why haven't you even tried to explain any of the verses I have provided?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why aren't you aware of what the Bible says about this?

Paul commanded believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit in Eph 4:30 and to STOP quenching the Spirit in 1 Thess 5:18.

Why don't you know this? Does your pastor know any of this?"

Sin manifests unbelief.

I guess you're really not interested in having a real conversation about Scripture, because you just keep ignoring what I'm showing you from Scripture.

You still haven't even acknowledged the commands of Paul regarding the Holy Spirit.

We ARE to be filled with the Spirit. Eph 5:18
We ARE to walk by means of the Spirit. Gal 5:16
We are to STOP grieving the Spirit. Eph 4:30
We are to STOP quenching the Spirit. 1 Thess 5:18

These 4 commands are the key to spiritual growth. But it seems you know nothing about any of these commands.

But all 4 are given to believers, because ALL of Paul's epistles were written to believers.

The escaping Jews from Egypt were our warning.

And they were ALL saved, btw.

1 Cor 10-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

But go ahead and argue with the apostle Paul about whether they were saved or not.

They didn't get barred from the promised land because of sin, but because of unbelief. (Heb 3:12,19, 4:6,11)
How was that unbelief demonstrated?
By disobedience to the one they claimed they loved.

Aren't you aware of the fact that even Moses wasn't permitted to enter the promised land, and it was because of "unbelief".

Num 14:29 - In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.

This was because of the response of the Jews to the majority report about the promised land, and they cried all night. Only Joshua and Caleb (the minority report) from the Exodus generation entered the land. Not even Moses was permitted.

Num 20:12 - 12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Num 27:14 - for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

This involved Moses' disobedience when he struck the rock when God told him to speak to the rock.

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

When Moses kept begging God to let him enter the land, this is God's response:

Deut 3:26 - But because of you the LORD was angry with me and would not listen to me. “That is enough,” the LORD said. “Do not speak to me anymore about this matter.

iow, God told Moses to SHUT UP and stop begging me. You AIN'T going in.

Same as today.

Yep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"I asked:
"Gal 5:24 doesn't support your claim that Jesus owns your physical body. Where do you get that idea?"
I still don't know where you got your idea, since Gal 2:20 says nothing about Jesus owning your physical body."

If Christ living in you doesn't imply His reign, what is He then?

You didn't answer my question. Your question is merely a distraction because you have no answer to my question.

But since you think His reign is "automatic", how about considering 1 Pet 3:15?
But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

This verse is to believers. Certainly not unbelievers. So explain why Peter was moved to tell believers to sanctify (revere) Christ as Lord.

Why are you putting off the start of 'forever' by spending so much time defending sin now?

I'm not putting off the start of eternity in any way. Your insinuation that I am is worse than silly.

"Today is the day of salvation"...

True for any unbeliever.

But once a believer, the issue is spiritual growth. That doesn't mean sinless perfection, for the Bible teaches that this isn't possible during our life on earth. But it does mean that we will sin less and less as we grow to spiritual maturity.

But no one can grow spiritually if they are so totally unfamiliar with the commands of Paul regarding the Holy Spirit.

 

[Phil W]

There is much naivety in your comment. And Paul's commands regarding the Holy Spirit refute your comment.
A believer who is out of fellowship, and grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit IS in darkness.
I recommend reading the entire NT, many times. You'll see quite a different picture.
Correct. And that's my point. Believers can't be both in fellowship and out of fellowship at the same time. It's either one or the other. And when believers are out of fellowship, they are in darkness.


The issue is that believers have a choice.


I don't face any conundrums.


That would be your opinion.


This shows that you fail to understand the difference between Christ paying for all our sins, past, present and future on the cross (way before we ever even sinned), and the on-going sin that occurs in our daily lives.

It's sad that my explanation of the need for foot washing being a parallel to confession of sin went over your head.


I believe your views are from a different world.

I said:
"Water baptism isn't the issue. A person who has just placed their faith in Christ is forgiven, cleansed and reborn."

Do you really not know that saving faith results in forgiveness and a new birth?

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

That addresses the forgiveness and cleansing.

Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,


Peter was addressing a unique situation, which cannot occur today. That crowd had actually and literally participated in Christ's crucifixion. What does apply today is what Paul told the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31.


They were already saved, based on their response in the previous verses.

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

It's clear that v.37 shows that they believed what Peter said about Jesus; that He is the Christ. That's why they were "cut to the heart". Their question wasn't about how to be saved, but "now what do we do?"


You're reading very wrong. It doesn't say "was once the worst...".

He clearly said "of whom I AM chief". Got it. Please stop twisting Scripture.

I said:
"OK, you completely missed the point in John 13."

Yes, it's tough for you.


I've accomodated nothing. Esp sin. I use Scripture to reveal the TRUTH, which you seem to be rejecting outright.

Believers still sin. That's what the Bible says and shows by example. But you want to deny that FACT.


Any person who has placed their full trust in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their own sins and believes that Jesus will give them eternal life as a free gift.

What's your definition?


Sure. The Greek word means "to perfect, to complete". Think about it for a sec. It's about reaching spiritual maturity. Not sinless perfection.


You are quite wrong. I've been reading through the NT monthly for well over a decade.


Why would you think that I promote self atonement? What a crock.

Jesus atoned for everyone's sin on the cross. 1 John 2:2


Do you understand the 3 tenses of salvation? It appears that you do not.

Past tense salvation: we were saved from the penalty of sin. Justification. That's how the believer is "freed from sin".

Present tense salvation: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification. It seems you either confuse or conflate justification with sanctification and you can't tell the difference.

Future tense salvation: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification. This is the state of sinless perfection.

But go ahead and address these 3 tenses of salvation and prove me wrong from Scripture.


If you are serious and think that I've been using Scripture to try to convince you to go back into sin, I'm afraid you have a very serious defect in understanding my very clear English words. How sad.


I'll tell you who really does tarnish God's Name: those who reject the truth of His Word.

As you have been doing. Your opinions regarding Christianity aren't even close to biblical Christianity. As I've shown from Scripture. All of which you've ignored.

Why haven't you even tried to explain any of the verses I have provided?

I have, and you refuse to believe.
Those who offend God are not believers.
If they were, the fear of God would so restrict their deeds that wickedness would cease to exist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have, and you refuse to believe.

The reality is actually vice versa.

Those who offend God are not believers.

Example of your failure to understand Scripture.

Why did Paul include the commands to STOP grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit in his epistle to BELIEVERS then?

Are you going to actually argue that a believer can grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit and that is NOT offensive to God???????

If they were, the fear of God would so restrict their deeds that wickedness would cease to exist.

Your worldview does not line up with reality.

 

[Phil W]

The reality is actually vice versa.
Example of your failure to understand Scripture.
Why did Paul include the commands to STOP grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit in his epistle to BELIEVERS then?

The KJV of the bible say "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)
It is a command not to do this, not to stop doing it.
Your version of scripture is leading you astray. It erroneously gives the false impression that those who have crucified the flesh still cater to it.

Are you going to actually argue that a believer can grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit and that is NOT offensive to God???????

Believers take Paul's exhortations and warnings to heart, and don't offend God.
It is the unbelievers who offend God.

Your worldview does not line up with reality.

Thanks be to God, I am not of this world.
Haven't been since I was reborn of Godly seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.