No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

The elect/sheep are the ones who accept God's offer of salvation that He made possible for all people. The ones who are not the elect/sheep are those who willingly choose to reject God's offer of salvation that He made possible for them by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2).

They are His Sheep while they are lost, before they believe.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You haven't proved it. Nothing about the blood of Christ in that scripture

So, how about you tell me how you think the verse should be interpreted then instead of just acting as if the verse doesn't exist?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

What do you think it means for the Lord to have bought the false prophets and false teachers that Peter referenced here?

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, they can. You are interpreting John 6:44 without taking John 12:32 into account where it says that Jesus would draw all people (literally all people) to Himself. You cherry pick scripture to form your doctrine instead of taking all of scripture into account.

Why did you not address the points I made in my post?

No they cant, and you are defying the very words of Christ Jn 6:44

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They are His Sheep while they are lost, before they believe.

No, they are not. Where are you getting that idea from?

 

[Brightfame52]

So, in your imaginary world, "all people" and "the whole world" only refer to the elect. I see.

Yeah, all people in Jn 12:32 is limited to the elect, sheep.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No they cant, and you are defying the very words of Christ Jn 6:44

I am not defying His words. I'm not ignoring or changing His words in John 12:32 like you are.

 

[Brightfame52]

So, how about you tell me how you think the verse should be interpreted then instead of just acting as if the verse doesn't exist?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

What do you think it means for the Lord to have bought the false prophets and false teachers that Peter referenced here?

Soon as you prove your assertion

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yeah, all people in Jn 12:32 is limited to the elect, sheep.

LOL. You can't be taken seriously with the way you change scripture to make it say what you want it to say. How can you live with yourself after doing that? Have you no shame? All people does not refer only to the elect/sheep. That's ludicrous.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Soon as you prove your assertion

Why are you lying to me? You know you don't know what that verse means, so why do you act as if you'll tell me what you think it means if I prove my assertion first? Why can't you just admit that you don't know what it means and can't even offer a guess?

 

[Brightfame52]

I am not defying His words. I'm not ignoring or changing His words in John 12:32 like you are.

Yes you are. He said no man can come to Him save divine intervention which is salvation

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes you are. He said no man can come to Him save divine intervention which is salvation

But, it is not automatic that if someone is drawn that they will then repent and put their faith in Christ. That's what you're missing. Look at this...

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

The Holy Spirit can be resisted, which contradicts your doctrine.

Jesus said He would draw ALL PEOPLE to Himself (John 12:32), which you shamefully try to change to only the elect/sheep. No, "all people" means literally "all people" in that verse. But, some people, after being drawn by hearing the word of God preached or reading the word of God decide not to commit to Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Look at what Jesus said in relation to the parable of the sower...

Matthew 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

This describes people who hear the gospel and "immediately receives it with joy", but they later stumble because of tribulation or persecution. Do you think these people represented by the seed that fell on stony places were not drawn to Christ? Of course they were! Otherwise, Jesus would not have said that such people receive the gospel with joy at first. But, they willingly choose to not commit fully to Christ and fall away when tribulation or persecution comes.

Your one liner responses cannot change that scripture teaches Jesus draws all people to Himself and all people, after being drawn to Him, have the free will decision to either put their faith and trust in Him as their Lord and Savior or not.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why are you lying to me? You know you don't know what that verse means, so why do you act as if you'll tell me what you think it means if I prove my assertion first? Why can't you just admit that you don't know what it means and can't even offer a guess?

You brought up a scripture, made a point, without the point being directly in the scripture. Nothing about the blood of Christ at all. And Im not under any obligation to explain your blunder.

 

[Brightfame52]

But, it is not automatic that if someone is drawn that they will then repent and put their faith in Christ. That's what you're missing. Look at this...

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

The Holy Spirit can be resisted, which contradicts your doctrine.

Jesus said He would draw ALL PEOPLE to Himself (John 12:32), which you shamefully try to change to only the elect/sheep. No, "all people" means literally "all people" in that verse. But, some people, after being drawn by hearing the word of God preached or reading the word of God decide not to commit to Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Look at what Jesus said in relation to the parable of the sower...

Matthew 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

This describes people who hear the gospel and "immediately receives it with joy", but they later stumble because of tribulation or persecution. Do you think these people represented by the seed that fell on stony places were not drawn to Christ? Of course they were! Otherwise, Jesus would not have said that such people receive the gospel with joy at first. But, they willingly choose to not commit fully to Christ and fall away when tribulation or persecution comes.

Your one liner responses cannot change that scripture teaches Jesus draws all people to Himself and all people, after being drawn to Him, have the free will decision to either put their faith and trust in Him as their Lord and Savior or not.

Yes drawing is salvation at its commencement, God is in the person at that juncture. That person now has a new heart and Spirit in them and God is causing them to come Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Fervent]

LOL. You can't be taken seriously with the way you change scripture to make it say what you want it to say. How can you live with yourself after doing that? Have you no shame? All people does not refer only to the elect/sheep. That's ludicrous.

Yeah, it's worse than the typical way Calvinists deal with that verse by transforming it from "all people" to "some people out of all people groups."....sad the lengths folk will go to maintain their philosophical systems.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yeah, it's worse than the typical way Calvinists deal with that verse by transforming it from "all people" to "some people out of all people groups."....sad the lengths folk will go to maintain their philosophical systems.

God's sheep come from all kinds of people simple

 

[Fervent]

God's sheep come from all kinds of people simple

Nothing in the language implies "kinds of people", it's simply all people. You're adding to Scripture because of your false doctrine.

 

[Brightfame52]

Nothing in the language implies "kinds of people", it's simply all people. You're adding to Scripture because of your false doctrine.

Nothing to you!

 

[Fervent]

Nothing to you!

Is that supposed to be an argument? Even the word 'people" isn't in the Greek, just all. So there's no reason to limit it other than to try to hold onto an unbiblical philosophical system.

 

[Brightfame52]

There must be a Divine Intervention before can believe or come to Christ, a giving of a new mind and heart. Mans heart and mind by nature is enmity against God and not subject to God, and cant be ! Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Also while unregenerate, by nature we are children of wrath as others, and the mind fulfills the lust of the flesh Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature[physical origin] the children of wrath, even as others.

Folks this is how we are by natural physical birth, our wills belong to the flesh. Nothing short of a New Nature, New beginning is needed, and that's the Divine Intervention. 9

 

[Brightfame52]

Nothing in the language implies "kinds of people", it's simply all people. You're adding to Scripture because of your false doctrine.

You mean nothing you can see and understand, I dont consider what you can see the standard of judgment