Salvation Cannot be Lost

[renniks]

Well, now you've just "moved the goal posts". You said you were comfortable with being wrong. Did you forget what you said?

I said I didn't want to be wrong any more than you. And you responded with being comfortable with being wrong.

Of course I want to be corrected about anything that doesn't line up with Scripture.

What's the title of this thread? Do you believe that or not?

You are not making sense. Why do you say you don't want to be wrong? Why is that an issue? I didn't move the goal posts I just made the logical conclusion.
I already told you, you can't lose it but you can reject it, you can throw it away. You can fall into disbelief and go to hell, even if you were once a true believer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"That's your problem. Because Moses was denied for the very same reason as the rest who were denied entrance. And I proved that from Scripture. Moses' disobedience was desderibed twice as unbelief."

Moses later was given the Law with which he could meet the required atonements for sin.
Having done so, he would qualify for eternal life.

First, no one was or is saved by keeping the Law.

Second, Moses shared that Law with the rest of the first generation boneheads that were denied entrance into the promised land, so you STILL haven't solved your problem.

What happened to the crowd happened to Moses. Both had the Law. And the people DID show repentance of their initial rejection of the minority report by Joshua and Caleb.

Just as Moses showed repentance for his rebellion of striking the rock.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 7 is Paul's remembrances of his time in the flesh, as a Jew, as a Pharisee.

Oh, just stop it. He wrote in the present tense. And you have failed to prove that he was writing in the historical present. He wasn't recalling anything from the past. He was describing his PRESENT struggles.

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Was this also a historical present?

You should say "OT Peter".

No. I said what the Bible says. Peter.

After Jesus' death and resurrection a new era opened up.

Peter was saved already. You have no point.

BTW, I don't need to study to justify sin.

What nonsense. You need to study to understand your own sin nature, which you simply deny.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are not making sense. Why do you say you don't want to be wrong?

Your question doesn't make sense. Why do you WANT to be wrong? I want the OPPOSITE. I WANT to be correct regarding Scripture. Seems you don't care.

Why is that an issue?

Truth is an issue. I'm very sorry that it doesn't seem to be to you.

I didn't move the goal posts I just made the logical conclusion.

You did and I showed how.

I already told you, you can't lose it but you can reject it, you can throw it away.

There is no material difference between your phony categories.

To clarify, please answer this simple yes or no question.

Can a recipient of eternal life perish?

You can fall into disbelief and go to hell, even if you were once a true believer.

Then, by your own claim here, a recipient of eternal life CAN perish.

Yet, Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why aren't you aware that the words "can" and "shall never" are mutually exclusive and are polar opposites?

So, your view is polar opposite to that of Jesus.

Yet, you have already noted that you are comfortable with being wrong.

 

[renniks]

Yet, you have already noted that you are comfortable with being wrong.

If you aren't comfortable with being proven wrong, it's pointless to have a conversation with you. You will never actually listen, just jump to a silly defense like you just did.

 

[renniks]

Yet, Jesus said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why aren't you aware that the words "can" and "shall never" are mutually exclusive and are polar opposites?

What the Word says is that his sheep will never perish. Being a sheep has conditions, it's not forced upon us. I happen to live with sheep and goats. Being called a sheep isn't exactly a compliment. When scared, they just run away with out any thought of where they are going to. Jesus specifically says the sheep are those who listen to his voice. No metaphor is perfect, but stop listening and you will likely become a goat eventually.

 

[jerry kelso]

This doesn't make any sense. Please explain how Paul was "killed in the hearts of men". And where do you get your ideas from, since there is NOTHING about this in the Bible.

freegrace2,

1. If you don’t understand a metaphor like killed in the hearts of men then you don’t need to be posting.
You act like every time I mention kill means physical. This shows you do not understand proper context.

2. You want to section off one point to defer from understanding proper context.

3. You say it is not in the Bible but fail to understand they were in jeopardy everyday of being killed physically and in the enemies hearts every day because they wanted to kill him.
I have told the true context from the immediate passage. You have to agree with the word. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

If I don't "practice" sin aren't I a non-sinner?
Of course I am.
Newer versions of scripture have polluted the bible with words like "practice", without even looking at the next few words.
Which for 1 John 3:9 are..."for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
"Cannot" nullifies the intentions of those who illicitly inserted "practice".
As "if" is conditional, why not meet the conditions?

philw,

1. To commit an act of sin one is classified as a sinner. There is no argument about that.
This is not the translation or thought behind the context of the wording.

2. This is known as a paradox that has to be reconciled with other scriptures on the subject.

3. 1 John 2:1; My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
V2; And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

4. One passage says a Christian can sin and another passage says we don’t commit sin.
They both can’t be right.
1 John 2:24-25; Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father.
V 25; And this is the promise that he hath promised us, EVEN ETERNAL LIFE.
The condition is abiding.

5. I know we have to be careful of newer translations about certain issues. This is not the case.
The scriptures together cannot be reconciled that we never sin. Also the respected Greek expositor Kenneth Weiss says it means we don’t practice sin.

6. I have worked with people who believed in complete sinless perfection as in no possibility for a Christian to sin after they got saved.
That was until one of their prominent own sinned in a very obvious sin.
They excommunicated him before they brought him in but, needless to say they were humbled and realized their doctrine was wrong.
If this is what you believe then you cannot reconcile the scriptures together on this belief.

7. We should meet the conditions but we are not always perfect in our knowledge.
The Bible says to not be ignorant of Satan’s devices but it doesn’t mean they are not.
Satan can deceive us and is out there to steal, kill, and destroy our lives. He wants us to go to hell.

8. The seed remains in us if we abide in him. This goes in line with 1 John 2:24-25.
Jerry Kelso

 

[Daniel C]

I agree with the OP that salvation is eternal once received from God.

Unfortunately a lot of people are taking the wrong path to get salvation and perhaps will never get there. Distorting the gift of salvation into a wage and trying to earn it rather than trust God with faith is a sure way to failure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you aren't comfortable with being proven wrong

Well, isn't this just silly. This isn't about being comfortable with being proven wrong. There you go again, trying to move those ol' goal posts.

I SAID, "I don't want to be wrong any more than you want to." Maybe you just don't comprehend my statement.

My point is that IF I am wrong about a biblical subject, I DO want to know that, and adjust my views so they line up with Scripture.

From your responses to my comment, it seems you are quite comfortable with being wrong. For that is EXACTLY what you said.

it's pointless to have a conversation with you.

Actually, that is absolutely true about you; who is comfortable with being wrong.

You will never actually listen, just jump to a silly defense like you just did.

Yourself to a T.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What the Word says is that his sheep will never perish.

Do you really want to be this picky? In v.28 where Jesus said "I give THEM", of course He was referring to His sheep, from v.27.

But, who are His sheep? Believers. But however picky you want to be, and play word games, when Jesus GIVES eternal life to someone, whatever you want to call them, they ARE RECIPIENTS of eternal life. They are saved people.

So, quit dodging, please, and answer the question.

In your theology, can a recipient of eternal life perish?

Being a sheep has conditions, it's not forced upon us.

The comment about "forced" is unnecessary. No one has argued that it is.

Also, you haven't YET shown that sheep have conditions for salvation.

In fact, v.28 blows your opinions out of the water.

SIMPLY ON THE BASIS OF BEING GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, JESUS' SHEEP WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, if you are looking for "conditions", look no further than being a recipient of eternal life.

Jesus specifically says the sheep are those who listen to his voice.

You're just not reading very carefully. v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what His sheep DO.

You're trying to twist the verse into HOW to become a sheep of Jesus. No can do.

No metaphor is perfect, but stop listening and you will likely become a goat eventually.

So, which verse or passage did you learn this from?

Seriously, if you continue to ignore my requests for evidence from Scripture, how can you expect ANYONE to take you seriously?

Without evidence, all you've got is your own opinion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace2,

1. If you don’t understand a metaphor like killed in the hearts of men then you don’t need to be posting.

lol. Don't you know WHY Jesus taught with metaphors?

You act like every time I mention kill means physical. This shows you do not understand proper context.

I'll just point out that every time I ask for clarification, you wander off into the weeds with nonsense. You haven't YET made yourself clear.

2. You want to section off one point to defer from understanding proper context.

If that is true, then you would have clear evidence of that. So I challenge you to cite the post # and the quote itself.

Without which, this is just another very empty opinion.

3. You say it is not in the Bible but fail to understand they were in jeopardy everyday of being killed physically and in the enemies hearts every day because they wanted to kill him.

First, you seem to have zero to little understanding of what I post. OF course Paul made the point that he could be killed at any moment. Duh.

Second, my claim is TRUE. You cannot provide ANY evidence that your opinions are found in the Bible.

I have told the true context from the immediate passage.

No, you have only given your own opinion about a passage.

You have to agree with the word. Jerry kelso

Of course I agree with the Word. What I don't agree with is your own opinions, which you have NOT been able to support from Scripture.

 

[Phil W]

Could you please cite this verse? I don't recall seeing such a verse. And I DO want to know the verse that shows the "most clear picture of losing salvation".
However, my challenge to Arminians continue to be a bit more specific than just having a "picture", since pictures can be rather misleading.
My challenge is to provide any verse that clearly and plainly says that salvation or eternal life can be lost. Thanks.

Hebrews 4:1, 11.....
1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

 

[Phil W]

Do you really want to be this picky? In v.28 where Jesus said "I give THEM", of course He was referring to His sheep, from v.27.
But, who are His sheep? Believers. But however picky you want to be, and play word games, when Jesus GIVES eternal life to someone, whatever you want to call them, they ARE RECIPIENTS of eternal life. They are saved people.
So, quit dodging, please, and answer the question.
In your theology, can a recipient of eternal life perish?
The comment about "forced" is unnecessary. No one has argued that it is.
Also, you haven't YET shown that sheep have conditions for salvation.
In fact, v.28 blows your opinions out of the water.
SIMPLY ON THE BASIS OF BEING GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, JESUS' SHEEP WILL NEVER PERISH.
So, if you are looking for "conditions", look no further than being a recipient of eternal life.
You're just not reading very carefully. v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what His sheep DO.
You're trying to twist the verse into HOW to become a sheep of Jesus. No can do.
So, which verse or passage did you learn this from?
Seriously, if you continue to ignore my requests for evidence from Scripture, how can you expect ANYONE to take you seriously?
Without evidence, all you've got is your own opinion.

How do you tell Jesus' sheep from all other sheep?

 

[renniks]

Do you really want to be this picky? In v.28 where Jesus said "I give THEM", of course He was referring to His sheep, from v.27.

But, who are His sheep? Believers. But however picky you want to be, and play word games, when Jesus GIVES eternal life to someone, whatever you want to call them, they ARE RECIPIENTS of eternal life. They are saved people.

So, quit dodging, please, and answer the question.

In your theology, can a recipient of eternal life perish?


The comment about "forced" is unnecessary. No one has argued that it is.

Also, you haven't YET shown that sheep have conditions for salvation.

In fact, v.28 blows your opinions out of the water.

SIMPLY ON THE BASIS OF BEING GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, JESUS' SHEEP WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, if you are looking for "conditions", look no further than being a recipient of eternal life.


You're just not reading very carefully. v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what His sheep DO.

You're trying to twist the verse into HOW to become a sheep of Jesus. No can do.


So, which verse or passage did you learn this from?

Seriously, if you continue to ignore my requests for evidence from Scripture, how can you expect ANYONE to take you seriously?

Without evidence, all you've got is your own opinion.

I've already given you ample evidence from scripture multiple times, but since you can't stand to think you might be wrong, you don't even consider it, you just keep harping on one verse, while ignoring that the verses in the passage explain WHO is given eternal life, and it's conditional on belief. Which of course you just said, but will deny that you said it in the next post.
It's actually quite amusing and sad.

 

[Phil W]

philw,
1. To commit an act of sin one is classified as a sinner. There is no argument about that.
This is not the translation or thought behind the context of the wording.
2. This is known as a paradox that has to be reconciled with other scriptures on the subject.
3. 1 John 2:1; My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
V2; And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

4. One passage says a Christian can sin and another passage says we don’t commit sin.
They both can’t be right.

The 1 John 2;1 "sinner" is not a Christian, but "any man".
As Jesus was my advocate at the beginning of my walk in the Spirit so He can be to all who will come to Him.
Verses 3 & 4 define the difference between Christians and "any man"...
3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 John 2:24-25; Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father.
V 25; And this is the promise that he hath promised us, EVEN ETERNAL LIFE.
The condition is abiding.

Amen to that.
Verse 4 above shows who is NOT "abiding".

5. I know we have to be careful of newer translations about certain issues. This is not the case.
The scriptures together cannot be reconciled that we never sin. Also the respected Greek expositor Kenneth Weiss says it means we don’t practice sin.

I'm sorry you have taken a man's word to accommodate sin, as the truth of God.
By insinuating the word "practice", he has made a single murder, adultery, or lie acceptable in the body of Christ. As long as the sin is "only once in a while", it doesn't really matter!
Does that sound like the Christ of God?
And I bet it doesn't apply to Adam and Eve either.

6. I have worked with people who believed in complete sinless perfection as in no possibility for a Christian to sin after they got saved.
That was until one of their prominent own sinned in a very obvious sin.
They excommunicated him before they brought him in but, needless to say they were humbled and realized their doctrine was wrong.
If this is what you believe then you cannot reconcile the scriptures together on this belief.

A couple of things to address here...
First, It is "possible" for men in Christ to sin, but they don't.
Sin would manifest they were never actually "in Christ"...for in Him is no sin.
Second, One "posers'" sin can't show an entire doctrine to be wrong. The sinner was wrong, not the idea of perfect obedience to God.
We are given, by the grace of God, lots of exhortations and warnings about how to conduct ourselves, and they are meant to be adhered to.

7. We should meet the conditions but we are not always perfect in our knowledge.
The Bible says to not be ignorant of Satan’s devices but it doesn’t mean they are not.
Satan can deceive us and is out there to steal, kill, and destroy our lives. He wants us to go to hell.

Our level of learning has no influence on what we can resist from the devil.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
God provides the escapes for every one based on what they DO know.

8. The seed remains in us if we abide in him. This goes in line with 1 John 2:24-25.
Jerry Kelso

Is sin a fruit of "that" seed?
No.

 

[Daniel C]

The people advocating for conditional salvation should read the scripture attached from their own posts. If we look at what the writers are telling us it doesn't actually say anything about salvation being lost after being saved.

Change my mind.

 

[Phil W]

The people advocating for conditional salvation should read the scripture attached from their own posts. If we look at what the writers are telling us it doesn't actually say anything about salvation being lost after being saved.

Change my mind.

Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement on the day of the Lord.
After which point, if one"s name is in the book of life, it will be permanent.
Endure, till the end!

 

[Daniel C]

Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement on the day of the Lord.
After which point, if one"s name is in the book of life, it will be permanent.
Endure, till the end!

Well of course God gets to pick who enters his kingdom and who is rejected as he is the authority and righteous in the relationship,that is not what eternal security means.

Eternal security is the principal that once a person has been born again they can never lose their salvation,thus salvation is not warranted through self-works as that is an ongoing process and the work can be inadequate and fail,therefore your salvation is only temporal. Salvation is a free gift,we don't earn it,we don't borrow it like if the Holy spirit indwelling inside and than exiting like a loan-it is gifted for our faith in Jesus that as our Savior he will be our justification and a worthy offering to the father to act as propitiation on our behalf of those who fully belief on Jesus Christ alone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Could you please cite this verse? I don't recall seeing such a verse. And I DO want to know the verse that shows the "most clear picture of losing salvation".
However, my challenge to Arminians continue to be a bit more specific than just having a "picture", since pictures can be rather misleading.
My challenge is to provide any verse that clearly and plainly says that salvation or eternal life can be lost. Thanks."

Hebrews 4:1, 11.....
1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

OK, thanks for sharing this verse. Even on the surface, I don't see any words about losing salvation.

However, let's look closer and go deeper.

v.1 isn't about "entering salvation", but something else. The promised land wasn't ever about salvation, though many believers think just that. The promised land was a picture of blessings and eternal rewards. Something that had to be earned.

If you argue that salvation must be earned, we're done. That is nothing but a slap in the face of the Lord Jesus Christ, and I will not entertain any further discussion with anyone who believes that salvation is earned.

The promised land HAD TO BE taken, and conquered. That's works. And the result was blessing by God. Nothing about salvation.

So, the "rest" of Hebrews isn't salvation or eternal life. It's about earning eternal rewards.

Now to v.11. Same concept.

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Again, we ENTER into "that rest" by "laboring". That ISN'T salvation. Not by a long shot.

Now to v39 - "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Again, nothing that states that salvation can be lost.
And the writer clearly states how one is saved: "believe to the saving of the soul".

Nothing about "laboring to the saving of the soul".

We need to include context for v.39, which you didn't do. So I will.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37 For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”
38 And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

v.35 clearly states an eternal reward for those who endure in the faith, which is what "confidence" is.
v.36 gives the promise of eternal rewards, which is to persevere.
v.37 notes the 2nd Coming of Christ.
v.38 is a policy statement of believers: "they will live by faith". And then follows God's response to believers who do shrink back. He has no pleasure. This is another way of saying what Heb 11:6 says: And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Now to v.39. The writer makes a statement about believers who DO shrink back with believers who don't shrink back.

Those believers who do will be "destroyed". Since we know that souls are NOT destroyed, but exist forever, this is clearly a reference to divine discipline, which includes physical death.