Salvation Cannot be Lost

[Phil W]

Not at all, but a rebellious child of God is still ,in his heart of hearts, a believer. Otherwise he would no longer be a child of God.

The children of God can't commit sin, (1 John 3:9), so how can they be rebellious?
In his heart of hearts he has lied to himself.
People who believe in God know the fate awaiting the rebellious, and will never offend God.
Not for fear of the punishment, but because they love Him above all else.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"But you have claimed that the promised land "presaged" heaven. You've still got a conflict in your views."

I don't see why.
The Jews didn't believe and were denied entry to the promised land.
The fate of NT sinners is denial of entry to heaven.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"Now we get to the crux of the Arminian problem. Totally lacking any understanding of grace, and being highly offended by the sins of others, Arminians just can't stand to think that a rebellious child of God deserves to get to heaven. They need to DIE! DIE! DIE!"

So then, you don't believe that a person can lose salvation?

God has no rebellious children. (1 John 3:9)
It is the children of the devil that sin against God. (1 John 3:10)

 

[renniks]

The children of God can't commit sin, (1 John 3:9), so how can they be rebellious?
In his heart of hearts he has lied to himself.
People who believe in God know the fate awaiting the rebellious, and will never offend God.
Not for fear of the punishment, but because they love Him above all else.

Sorry, but we all commit sin. We all offend God. Those who think they don't included.

 

[Phil W]

Sorry, but we all commit sin. We all offend God. Those who think they don't included.

Then you don't believe 1 John 3:9-10 ?
Or 1 Peter 4:1 ?
Or 2 Peter 1:10 ?

 

[jerry kelso]

Then you don't believe 1 John 3:9-10 ?
Or 1 Peter 4:1 ?
Or 2 Peter 1:10 ?

philw,

1. The full context of 1 John 3:9-10 is that a Christian doesn’t practice sin and Romans 6 if one doesn’t change masters. Read 1 John 2:23-24 and Romans’ 6.
“If” is a word of condition in 1 John 2:23-24 and 2 Peter 1:10.
Context has to be understood correctly. Jerry Kelso

 

[BCsenior]

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,
lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." (Heb 4:11)

There are dozens of better ones than this!
I'll be happy to send you a NT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Do you know that I don't want to be wrong any more than you don't?"

I'm not sure what that means? I would have no problem being wrong.

Then I guess you would be in the minority. Why would anyone want to be wrong??

Do you have some kind of allergy to the truth, or something?

I have been close to accepting OSAS before, but always had doubts. When I balance the promises about God not leaving us with the warnings about falling away, this is where I land: God will not leave us but we can leave him, by no longer remaining in him at all.

And yet, what Bible passage teaches that salvation can be lost? So far, you've given none.

So your "conclusion" is just your opinion. But you've said you have no problem being wrong, so I guess you're comfortable with being wrong, which means you're views are antibibical.

I would NEVER be comfortable with that scenario.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then Paul said, I die daily.
Physically dying every day is a possibility for God has the power to raise us up. It is not a probability.

Here's the problem with your thesis. One cannot "die daily". You only get one shot at death. No one gets daily shots of it.

Of course God has the power to raise up dead people. However, can you count how many times the Bible tells us that any one person actually died physically daily and then God raised them up again?

That is absurd. To the max.

This is the truth of I die daily and its connection to physical resurrection. Jerry Kelso

There is NO TRUTH to anyone dying daily and then being resurrected daily.

But I'm waiting for your count to prove me wrong on that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"But you have claimed that the promised land "presaged" heaven. You've still got a conflict in your views."

I don't see why.
The Jews didn't believe and were denied entry to the promised land.
The fate of NT sinners is denial of entry to heaven.

But you also know that Moses was denied entry to the promised land, along with all the rest of the first generation of the Exodus generation.

If all the OT Jews who were denied entrance showed them to be unbelievers, then Moses had to be one of them.

That's your problem. Because Moses was denied for the very same reason as the rest who were denied entrance. And I proved that from Scripture. Moses' disobedience was desderibed twice as unbelief.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God has no rebellious children. (1 John 3:9)

That verse doesn't say what you think it says. It speaks directly to the fact that the believer's new born again nature cannot sin. We still have the original sinful nature, or Paul would never have had to write Romans 6 and 7.

It is the children of the devil that sin against God. (1 John 3:10)

Jesus called Peter "Satan". Your views are quite naive. But quite correctable with a whole lot of Bible study.

 

[renniks]

So your "conclusion" is just your opinion. But you've said you have no problem being wrong, so I guess you're comfortable with being wrong, which means you're views are antibibical.

I would NEVER be comfortable with that scenario.

If you will never be comfortable with finding out you are wrong, you will never learn anything new from scripture.

 

[jerry kelso]

Here's the problem with your thesis. One cannot "die daily". You only get one shot at death. No one gets daily shots of it.

Of course God has the power to raise up dead people. However, can you count how many times the Bible tells us that any one person actually died physically daily and then God raised them up again?

That is absurd. To the max.


There is NO TRUTH to anyone dying daily and then being resurrected daily.

But I'm waiting for your count to prove me wrong on that.

freegrace,

1. I never said the phrase, “I Die Daily” was about Paul or anybody else physically dying everyday.
I said it was a possibility not a probability to get your attention towards the connection to physical resurrection.
Most people think it can only be something about the spiritual aspect dying to sin or crucifying the flesh etc.

2. As I said before, the phrase “I Die Daily” deals with the fact that Paul was killed in the hearts of men everyday, led like a sheep led to the slaughter, in jeopardy every hour for the cause of Christ because of the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Savior and if there was no physical resurrection then living for God and putting his life on the line for the cause of Christ and putting himself in danger was all for naught and had no purpose.
This is the context. Jerry Kelso

 

[Phil W]

philw,

1. The full context of 1 John 3:9-10 is that a Christian doesn’t practice sin and Romans 6 if one doesn’t change masters. Read 1 John 2:23-24 and Romans’ 6.
“If” is a word of condition in 1 John 2:23-24 and 2 Peter 1:10.
Context has to be understood correctly. Jerry Kelso

If I don't "practice" sin aren't I a non-sinner?
Of course I am.
Newer versions of scripture have polluted the bible with words like "practice", without even looking at the next few words.
Which for 1 John 3:9 are..."for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
"Cannot" nullifies the intentions of those who illicitly inserted "practice".
As "if" is conditional, why not meet the conditions?

 

[Phil W]

There are dozens of better ones than this!
I'll be happy to send you a NT.

Thanks, but no thanks.
I have several already.
I was just using one example that supplied the most clear picture of losing salvation.

 

[Phil W]

I said:
"But you have claimed that the promised land "presaged" heaven. You've still got a conflict in your views."

But you also know that Moses was denied entry to the promised land, along with all the rest of the first generation of the Exodus generation.

If all the OT Jews who were denied entrance showed them to be unbelievers, then Moses had to be one of them.

Correct.

That's your problem. Because Moses was denied for the very same reason as the rest who were denied entrance. And I proved that from Scripture. Moses' disobedience was desderibed twice as unbelief.

Moses later was given the Law with which he could meet the required atonements for sin.
Having done so, he would qualify for eternal life.

 

[Phil W]

That verse doesn't say what you think it says. It speaks directly to the fact that the believer's new born again nature cannot sin. We still have the original sinful nature, or Paul would never have had to write Romans 6 and 7.

Romans 7 is Paul's remembrances of his time in the flesh, as a Jew, as a Pharisee.
Rom 6 was his writing about the death of the flesh, so was of no personal influence on his present ability to walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" while writing Rom 7.

Jesus called Peter "Satan". Your views are quite naive. But quite correctable with a whole lot of Bible study.

You should say "OT Peter".
After Jesus' death and resurrection a new era opened up.

BTW, I don't need to study to justify sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you will never be comfortable with finding out you are wrong, you will never learn anything new from scripture.

Well, now you've just "moved the goal posts". You said you were comfortable with being wrong. Did you forget what you said?

I said I didn't want to be wrong any more than you. And you responded with being comfortable with being wrong.

Of course I want to be corrected about anything that doesn't line up with Scripture.

What's the title of this thread? Do you believe that or not?

 

[FreeGrace2]

2. As I said before, the phrase “I Die Daily” deals with the fact that Paul was killed in the hearts of men everyday

This doesn't make any sense. Please explain how Paul was "killed in the hearts of men". And where do you get your ideas from, since there is NOTHING about this in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was just using one example that supplied the most clear picture of losing salvation.

Could you please cite this verse? I don't recall seeing such a verse. And I DO want to know the verse that shows the "most clear picture of losing salvation".

However, my challenge to Arminians continue to be a bit more specific than just having a "picture", since pictures can be rather misleading.

My challenge is to provide any verse that clearly and plainly says that salvation or eternal life can be lost. Thanks.